Leaderliness vs. Leadership

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sat Apr 18, 2009 at 20:30


Raise your glass to the hard working people
Let's drink to the uncounted heads
Let's think of the wavering millions
Who need leaders but get gamblers instead.
    --"Salt of the Earth," The Rolling Stones

America is starving for leadership, but we're getting leaderliness instead.  Two excellent recent Quick Hits by John Halle serve to highlight this problem, which deserves a wider discussion of the broader failure involved.  The first was "Kos on Protests"

Kos on Protest (John Halle)

Wondering why there are no protests?
Here's one reason: Kos say he doesn't like 'em.

"They bring out the wackos" spake the pwog blog guru.

C.f. last sentence of:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...

Thus further insuring that Obama's presidency continues its trajectory towards abject failure.

The second was "Change vs. Changiness", citing an excellent diary at A Tiny Revolution, "What A President With Genuine Courage Looks Like", that vividly contrasts the leadership styles and substantinve intentions of Bolivia's Evo Morales and Barack Obama.  Morales recently undertook a five-day hunger strike to pressure the Bolivian legislature to pass legislation giving greater electoral power to Bolivia's underclass.

Paul Rosenberg :: Leaderliness vs. Leadership
While there was a very lively discussion of the Quick Hit on Kos--including a much-need reference to his own diaries on the subject at DKos--for me the most salient point here is simply that Kos tends to take a very short-sighted view of the value and nature of protests, a view that's nearly ubiquitous among the very sorts of political insiders who he claims to be working against.

The plain fact is that protests have many political consequences far beyond their immediate impacts, many of which go under the broad rubric of "movement-building".  And without movement-building very little in the way of significant long-term political change ever becomes possible. Of course, movement-building is much more than just a string of protests, and a narrow-minded infatuation with individual protests is just as fatal to movement-building as a pathological hatred of them is.  As in most things, the truth is a bit complicated--more like home-made soup than a cup of coco.

In short, the notion that there is sharp distinction between political protest and "normal" political activity, such as lobbying, fundraising, phone-banking, etc., is itself a very myopic view--though not the only one.  Of course one can and should distinguish between degrees of effectiveness, and Kos himself goes through the motions of doing this in one of his posts.  But his brusque and impatient manner is a dead giveaway to how narrow and constricted his views are with respect to the role and value of protests.

He's a clip from "Why yesterday's protests were stupid":

I've never made a secret for my distaste of most street protests, and of groups like Code Pink that think they are accomplishing anything with their street theater. But when I set out to write Taking on the System, my book on effective organizing in the 21st century, I had to dig deep to figure out why I didn't like them, and how to differentiate the usual ineffective ANSWER-organized protests with those that actually had a positive effect (e.g. the Jena Six and pro-immigration protests of a few years ago).

I finally determined that for a protest to be effective it needed to:

  1. be novel and/or unexpected
  2. have a sympathetic, singular, and media-friendly message
  3. provide great visuals
  4. tap into a hot-button and timely issue.

The usual leftist protests fail most of these, falling into the worst, cartoonish stereotypes. They feature a mishmash of causes and issues, with no unifying theme. Is the protest about the Iraq War? Or Palestine? Or American imperialism? Or freeing Mumia? Or legalizing marijuana? Or blah blah blah blah? Who the heck knows? Who the heck cares?

....

There's nothing novel, new, or interesting about these protests, making them easy to ignore. We've seen them a million times, the visuals are easily mockable, with the dreads and the stupid puppets and whatnot. And not only are they patently ridiculous, but we saw just how ineffective they were during the Bush years. No one gave a damn about them, not the media, not powers-that-be (in either party), and certainly not the public.

It wasn't the protest movement that moved the Democratic Party left on Iraq, it was Joe Lieberman's loss in his Democratic primary in 2006. Prior to that, Rahm Emanuel, as head of the DCCC, was telling Democratic candidates to steer clear of the war. After that primary, the Dems fully embraced ending the war in their campaigns and won huge that fall. In other words, the anti-war cause was best served via electoral politics. After Lieberman's loss, not even the media could ignore the saliency and validity of the anti-war position. "Patriotism" could no longer be used to silence anti-war voices, we had helped mainstream them.

Several points jumped out at me from this:

(1) Citing Code Pink as typical of what he doesn't like immediately triggered the "feminist problem" flag.  If you don't know about Kos's feminist problem, it's too long and complex to go into here.  I just say this for the sake of reportorial honesty.  That's what my first thought was when I saw that.  Why is it important to note?  Because

(2) The very four things he says make for an effective protest are things that Code Pink is generally known for.  It's one of the reasons why they started off as a tiny little group in the midst of the sort of large, muddle-messaged protests Kos criticizes, and grew rapidly to become a readily-identified, well-known group whose specific messge jumped out from the background noise of everything else going on.

(3) Kos's arguement is, basically, that leftist protests are ineffective because they are "amatureish".  But he offers no real argument or evidence for this.  It seems far more likely that they're ineffective because they lack institutional support.  As such, the only way they can possibly be effective is via generating more widespread forms of social action or change in values and perception over a longer time-frame.  In short, Kos is talking as if political effectiveness were a matter of presentational effectiveness--always a big concern for electoral campaigns--when there's no real reason to take this level of explanation as fundamental for issue organizing or long-term movement-building.  Rather, one would expect presentational effectiveness to reflect deeper levels of organizational effectiveness, which in turn require a much more sophisticated sort of analysis than Kos provides.  Books like Pivens & Clowards' Poor People's Movements: Why They Succeed, How They Fail are relevant here.

(4) The claim that anti-war protests were ineffective, but that Ned Lamont's failed Senate campaign was effective seems totally unsupported.  By what measure is supposed to be validated, particularly given that we're still in Iraq?  And expanding into Afghanistan? Even if one accepted Kos's totally unsupported (not to mention false) assumption that Lamont's campaign and the anti-war protests had nothing to do with one another, it's hard to figure out how one would even formalize the basis for making--much less proving--such a claim.

I could go on, but I think my underlying point should be more or less clear: what Kos is giving us amounts to little more than exactly what he confesses: this is a rationalization of his gut feelings.  Nothing more. Nothing less.

Kos is a proven expert at online community-building--more than that, he's a genius at it.  But that doesn't magically make him an expert anything else.  Some other things he's good at, others not so much.  Some things he doesn't even really try. And understanding social movements is one of those things that seems to pretty obviously fall into this last category.  So don't expect him to be any sort of leader in it, either. It would be freakin' great is he were, of course.  But it's just not the case.  He does not provide leadership, because he's not even interested in doing so. He does provide leaderliness, because other folks seem to expect it from him.  But his "failure" here is more a failure of other people's expectations.



Things are much different with Barack Obama.  True, the failure of other people's expectations plays a role here as well.  But Obama has gone far out of his way to sell himself as a "transformational leader" offering "change you can believe in" and thus his failure to deliver is something he's directly responsible for in a way that's really quite different from Kos.

John's dairy at A Tiny Revolution makes this blindingly obvious:

What A President With Genuine Courage Looks Like

By: John Caruso

Evo Morales just finished a 5-day hunger strike in support of a package of electoral reforms:

    Bolivian President Evo Morales ended a five-day hunger strike today after Congress approved a new electoral law that will boost the voting power of his core constituency. Morales had canceled a diplomatic visit to Cuba to maintain a vigil inside the presidential palace, where for almost a week he consumed only water and coca leaves, the raw ingredient in cocaine and a folk remedy used in Bolivia to suppress hunger. He slept on a bare mattress on the palace floor, surrounded by fasting union leaders who form part of his coalition party. "The Bolivian people will never forget this revolutionary process," Morales, 49, said today in the presidential palace, moments after concluding the strike. In remarks on state television, Morales said he hoped the fast would strengthen Bolivians' support for "profound economic, social and cultural changes."

(This was nothing new for Morales, who once fasted for 18 days when he was a union leader to protest coca eradication.)

The superficial similarities between Morales and Obama only serve to highlight the critical differences: Bolivia's president is a former union leader who draws directly on his experience to fight for his principles, whereas our erstwhile community-organizer president trades on his past to gain votes while actively betraying the principles he formerly espoused.  To put it another way, Morales uses his power to further the goals of the popular movement that made him president, while Obama co-opts the power of the popular movement that made him president to undercut its goals.

Just for a moment, imagine what it would be like to have a president who actually possessed (positive) core, non-negotiable convictions, and for whom going on a hunger strike was well within the range of sacrifices they were willing to make to fight for those convictions....

It is comparatively easy to imagine Kos being other than he is.  But to fully confront the magnitude of Obama's falling short of what he could be, that is something so painful that it could well be paralyzing if we were to fully let it in.

Imagine--he could go on a hunger strike, just like Evo Morales, to fight for universal healthcare, or EFCA or a people's bailout.  Instead, he's either staunchly opposed, or else seemingly indifferent to all of them.

That gap between the possible (the transformational political figure we were promised during the campaign) and the real (I'm not a transformational political leader, but I play one on tv) is simply staggering, and far, far too painful to concentrate on for any length of time.  Much easier to rail against Kos.  Much harder to figure out what else to do.

But that's our job.

It's just like the charlatan said: we are the leaders we're been waiting for.

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Obama's not a great statesman (4.00 / 3)
but he can play a great statesman on TV.

It's just been so long since we've seen a great statesman in action that we no longer know how such a person would behave. And after the Bush years, even empty gestures make us feel better. The fact that we are only getting empty gestures, and not a bit more, has not yet sunk in.

But maybe it is better that Obama is as he is. The enormous disappointment at the gap between the expectation and reality of Obama will teach people to be a lot more demanding and activist. No doubt the very online organizing tools that Obama promoted (and seems to have abandoned) will be taken up by others and put to uses he could not have imagined.

And maybe we'll have a small window of time when we have an active, receptive populace which is ready for real change, and we can put true leaders into Washington, instead of actors.


Well, We Can Certainly Hope So (4.00 / 8)
But I think the key is to act without hope.  To act out of a sense of moral duty.  To act because it is right, not because we expect to succeed, but to act because we must.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"

[ Parent ]
That's a very zen view. (4.00 / 8)
And one that I share. You do what you do not because you expect to win, but because it needs to be done.

It's how the suffragists thought, and the abolitionists, for the decades and decades it took them to change the world.

If you liked Bush, you'll love McCain


[ Parent ]
Exactly! (4.00 / 5)
The only people who have really changed the world have been those motivated by moral certainty, not by hope.

Hope helps you get the job done in the end, of course.  But it can't get you to the point where hope first becomes possible.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
... True, and ... (4.00 / 1)
most of them were profoundly religious, as the two (moral certainty and religious belief) are frequently intertwined.

Just sayin.


[ Parent ]
Act with good cheer (0.00 / 0)
not without hope.

Time to admit maybe that Democracy is getting old.


[ Parent ]
Democracy is way too limited and inherently corruptable -- (0.00 / 0)
there's nothing built into it to provide or mandate social justice or economic fairness and opportunity or anything good, really, beyond voting.

[ Parent ]
You Have A VERY Shallow Concept of Democracy (4.00 / 3)
about as shallow as Aristotle, actually.

Benjamin Barger's Strong Democracy or SDS's participatory democracy are much more in the ballpark.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
things like rights and social safety nets and public services like education, etc, (0.00 / 0)
are not inherent or integral to Democracy.

Many of the most necessary functions of a government shouldn't be dependent on votes nor on elected representatives -- minority and disempowered needs and rights especially.

Democracy in itself -- even a very participatory form of it (like mandatory voting, for instance) -- does not provide for or protect or help all citizens, and isn't intended to.

Courts and Justice systems aren't integral to them either.


[ Parent ]
also -- essential principles like "the rule of law, not men" (0.00 / 0)
and "checks and balances", etc, are not actually Democratic. (thank God)

There are good reasons why "Democracy" gets so many modifiers and why there are so many variations -- in itself it is not ever enough, so we have "liberal democracies" and "social democracies", "Democracy in name only", etc ...

Iraq and Iran and Afghanistan and Pakistan are all (currently) Democracies, for instance, whether those elected are puppets of other powers, or the real power is held by unelected ppl and groups, etc

Saudi Arabia is not a Democracy.


[ Parent ]
The only alternative is aristocracy, in one form or (4.00 / 2)
another.

And it is far more limited and corrupt. That's why we've been shaking it off, in fits and starts, for centuries. We're not doing it for our health.

If you liked Bush, you'll love McCain


[ Parent ]
no -- some systems have protections and public services built into them -- (0.00 / 0)
Democracies do not.

And since our elected officials neither act according to our will and needs, nor follow or enforce our laws and Constitution, we don't really even have that.

We do have an aristocracy -- just like in Robber Baron days, and at multiple times in our history.


[ Parent ]
The only protections aristocracy has built into it (0.00 / 0)
are the consciences of individual rulers. And that has always been a fragile, rare thing.

And I'm not arguing we aren't living under a form of aristocracy right now. The Wall Street bailout pretty much proved it. The only question is, is it an aristocracy on the way up, or on the way down?

If you liked Bush, you'll love McCain


[ Parent ]
i was thinking more of socialism/communism/etc with my reply -- (0.00 / 0)
and also how so many current democracies -- including ours -- are very non-democratic -- whether it's coalition governments where parties that people did not vote for end up dictating policy because the winning party didn't get a governing majority, and other countries that vote for party and then that party selects a Prime Minister themselves without voter input or choice, etc. And how every state here gets 2 Senators regardless of population or actual votes, and gerrymandering of voting districts ensuring "safe" one-party districts, and how Presidents pretty much choose Supreme Court Justices themselves, etc ...  

California's Proposition system is actually more purely democratic, i think -- and often terrible in many ways.

If you have a democracy or some hybrid, and the majority of potential voters don't even vote, and the officials they elect don't act according to the will of voters or the public, ... is it one ???


[ Parent ]
"on the way up, or on the way down?" (0.00 / 0)
for them, it's the way up. they win and cement their power and influence more and more no matter who is in charge, party-wise.

for the country as a whole -- down.

for the population (voting and non-) -- down.

When the population doesn't participate and/or keeps officials in power even when they act against our interests, it's always up for them, no? It's all the easier for them to get what they want.


[ Parent ]
Protests as "agents of social change"... (4.00 / 1)
...are largely ineffective.

When they are combined with much more organized efforts of contact, education and demonstrated action they can be effective, but it is likely more effective to generate those things without the protest...or to have the protest as a "celebratory event" after doing those prior things.

Where protests can be effective is when there is a single issue needing little education that crosses far more demographic lines than "organizers" can deal with - so you hold a protest/event and get as many of the people signed is as you can to assemble more data for organizing efforts moving forward.  This requires a HEAVILY divisive and emotional issue beyond the breaking point for a large number of people, as the Republican's found out on the 15th...taxes aren't there.

When you start talking about the exceptional protests, a million women in the National Mall or 10 million people protesting in cities across America on the same issue (another problem the right had on 4/15, there were too many people off message/different agendas), those events can be major catalysts for social change, but they are typically only a starting point (or a finishing point/capstone)- the organizational efforts, the contacting of Congressmen/Senators/President/Governor/State Rep/Dog Catchers, the letter writing to the papers, the canvassing of neighborhoods...this is where the change happens.

Keep in mind these exceptional protests are just that, exceptional...very very rare.

The work put in to building a average protest is extensive and the results are meager, it is far more efficient to put that effort into direct engagement/action.


Protests Are Tactics, Not Strategies (4.00 / 8)
It's only true that protests "are largely ineffective" if one expects them to fulfill a strategic purpose, as opposed to a tactical one.

If the strategy includes protests as a part of a larger organizing process, then they can be quite effective.

If one expects the protests alone to accomplish a strategic end, then naturally they will fail.

Even the 1963 March On Washington was not conceived of as strategic end in itself.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
no debate there tactic vs strategy... (4.00 / 1)
...but my point is that in most cases they are an inefficient and ineffective tactic.

Unless you have all the right stars aligned (message, media, attendance, environment (physical, emotional and social), etc etc...you have no chance of gaining any ground with a protest event, you do have a great chance of losing ground... sometimes even when the situation is well set up.

Then again I shouldn't get the word out because I have piggy backed many protests to gather data or disseminate message for unaffiliated campaigns.  Very kind of people to get their people out so I can advance my cause instead of theirs.

On the Lamont campaign's influence - it wasn't his campaign per say - it was just the documented victory of a candidate opposing the war versus one supporting it vigorously, a strong incumbent at that.  Nothing exciting among the populace, but it was enough to shift consultants and candidates from their default "must appear strong on defense" position.  Has it really influenced policy?  Not really - but I think it was significant in the choice of our current President (during the primary).  Unfortunately Lamont was a terrible candidate in the General and thus spoiled the use of this event as a turning point.


[ Parent ]
I love the chest thumping of the Lamontians (4.00 / 1)
Lamont beat Lieberman in the primary because a) the CT Dem electorate is extremely liberal and anti-war (and small); and b) he outspent Lieberman by several million dollars. Almost no one wins a primary who doesn't spend the most money therein. Sorry, not a sentimental truth, but a truth nonetheless.

Kos claiming Lamont's campaign as the primary reason why Dems won in the 2006 general is almost as laughable logically as it is enlightening about the personality of the head Kossack. Among many, many other logical fallacies, one might note that by the time October of 2006 rolled around and winning time was at hand for Dem candidates, Lamont was far behind and losing fast. Meaning that anyone who WAS inclined to take lessons from that race was concluding that Lamont's message DIDN'T work in a general election context, which of course was the context they were all in. As I say, one among many fallacies.

And of course, Kos claiming Lamont's primary victory as having turned history has nothing to do with the obsessive interest HE had in that race at the time, and the millions of words he devoted to it and the hundreds of calls to action. No, nothing at all.

Ironically, Kos and his peers HAVE changed political history, but inventing effective online organizing. But their impact on specific races has been minimal and often negative.


[ Parent ]
If you remember .. (4.00 / 2)
Meaning that anyone who WAS inclined to take lessons from that race was concluding that Lamont's message DIDN'T work in a general election context, which of course was the context they were all in. As I say, one among many fallacies.

two things worked against Lamont .. CT doesn't have a sore loser law .. and Rove and Co. openly advocated for Holy Joe .. since CT Republicans nominated a very flawed candidate .. so it wasn't all Lamont's fault


[ Parent ]
Obama and many other Dems too -- they did not help Lamont even when he was the Dem. candidate at all -- (4.00 / 3)
they killed his chances -- not Rove or any other Republican.

[ Parent ]
HAHAH you called me a chest beating Lamontian lol. (4.00 / 2)
I find him to have been a lousy candidate and he was a poor surrogate for Dodd.  Would he make a good Senator? Maybe, I don't really know.  But he is a terrible candidate.

Lamont's campaign fell apart when he took a (long) vacation after the primary creating a vacuum where there should have been a fire hose of message.  He failed to reinforce the notion that he was "the man" for Connecticut Democrats and thus was very susceptible to attacks and opened the door for the bizarre R to CFL voting and financing.  The GE is not useful in any meaningful context as it was a very odd three-way race with the Republican White House backing the CFL candidate, formerly a Democrat...and now again a Democrat.

But I do actually work on campaigns for a living, so I have some perspective as to the attitude changes that occurred as a result of the CT Primary.


[ Parent ]
Tactics (4.00 / 5)
Paul,
I tend to think that people get caught up too much in the theater aspect, and not enough on the results/effects aspect of protesting.  

There is more to it than just marching.  For example, MLK and the civil rights movement used non-violent methods to apply economic and social pressure in pursuit of clear goals.

For example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B...

In Birmingham the goal was to desegregate the town.  Methods used were the following
1.  Boycott of downtown segregated stores.  Result "They caused downtown business to decline by as much as 40 percent, which demanded attention from the Chamber of Commerce president Sidney Smye..."
2.  Non-violent confrontation in stores.  People staged sit ins at segregated businesses.  Result?  "Most white residents of Birmingham expressed shock at the demonstrations."
3.  March by children/students.  Results--  
a)jails filled to overcapacity.  "When no squad cars were left to block the city streets, Connor, whose authority extended to the fire department, used fire trucks. The day's arrests brought the total number of jailed protesters to 1,200 in the 900-capacity Birmingham jail."
b) Massive media attention-- the Birmingham fire department used firehoses on children and teenagers, resulting in media coverage and massive national and international outrage.
c) Local business leaders finally come to the table.  They agree to some concessions, and also bring pressure to bear on the political system.  

In total, all the actions listed above eventually caused "a complete shutdown" of the downtown business area.

The Birmingham city government eventually made concessions to the demands of the marchers.  Just as importantly, the pressure from the campaign resulted in the passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

We live in a different world than 1963.  However, the lesson  from a case study of the Birmingham campaign is timeless--
choose a target, have clear demands, and use tactics designed to apply pressure to centers of power.  Keep at it until you get what you want.  

Like I said-- there's more to this than just marching.


[ Parent ]
Yes -- marching is just one tool in the box (0.00 / 0)
are you familiar with Gene Sharp?

If you liked Bush, you'll love McCain

[ Parent ]
This is the point I was looking for (0.00 / 0)
And protests can be tactical as well, of course.  It depends on the specifics of the issue/context. You can also "do" protests in strategic ways, so that they block traffic, etc.

Core Dilemmas of Community Organizing Series

[ Parent ]
Mmmmm.... (4.00 / 4)
Though I think you have a point about the "rationalization of gut feelings," I tend to agree with Markos vis-a-vis the utility of street protest, and you shouldn't be so uncharitable with the comparison to Lamont's primary.

The underlying argument here is a realpolitik one about power.

It's almost impossible to conceive of protest actions in the US which could actually represent a real threat to established power. Political power (as well as capital) hasn't been affected by things going on "in the streets" for some time now. They learned from Seattle, and are now almost entirely decoupled from any public-space dependencies. As per ECD, talking about protest and civil disobedience:

Although CD [civil disobedience] is still effective as originally conceived (particularly at local levels), its efficacy fades with each passing decade. This decline is due primarily to the increas- ing ability of power to evade the provocations of CD participants. Even though the monuments of power still stand, visibly present in stable locations, the agency that maintains power is neither visible nor stable. Power no longer permanently resides in these monuments, and com- mand and control now move about as desired. If mechanisms of control are challenged in one spatial location, they simply move to another location. As a result, CD groups are prevented from establishing a theater of operations by which they can actually disrupt a given institution. Block- ing the entrances to a building, or some other resistant action in physical space, can prevent reoccupation (the flow of personnel), but this is of little consequence so long as information-capital continues to flow.

Basically, people in the street represent no threat to existing powers beyond what they could possibly/maybe mean in a larger democratic electoral sense. As such, it's all an exercise in public relations, dependent on favorable media coverage and a good message, etc. As such, Code Pink, while successful in organizational growth, is not necessarily very effective.

As a broader "movement organizing" tactic, I'm also exceedingly skeptical of the utility of contemporary left-wing protest. It's not a skill-building activity, lacks pedagogical value for participants and observer, and more often than not self-reinforces a "fringe" identity which isn't very helpful in building a coherent or effective movement.

Contrast that to running a primary against Lieberman. This was a real exercise of power, which built skills, yielded valuable experience and connections for participants, and even though it was ultimately unsuccessful, it caused a sharp change in an institutional attitude. Yes, we're still in Iraq (and deepening in Afghanistan), but the Democratic Party no longer soft-pedals opposition to the war.

Imagine what a few successful primary challenges that ran with a coherent post/anti-empire message could accomplish.

Me | My Work | Future Majority


No (4.00 / 2)
The Lamont-Lieberman primary did not "cause a sharp change in institutional attitude." That's just wishful thinking, assuming that others think as you do. What evidence do you have for that?

In fact, it caused politicians to conclude that the anti-war left was no danger as long as the electorate went beyond hard core liberal Democrats. The left had a primary-winning candidate with unlimited personal funds and unlimited access to volunteers, plus as a bonus a charismatic Republican on the ticket too. And they got their lattes handed to them. Lesson: Unless you're in a district/state with lots of liberals and someone rich challenges you in a primary (under which circumstances you almost certainly already opposed the war ... Lieberman was and is a strange bird) you can do whatever you want. And certainly that was proven true in the 08 elections, as all those pro-war Dems did just fine.


[ Parent ]
"charismatic Republican on the ticket too"? (0.00 / 0)
You're speaking of Alan Schlesinger???

I hate to be rude, but who do you think you're fooling?


[ Parent ]
Lieberman WAS the charismatic Repub -- (4.00 / 1)
in reality.

[ Parent ]
Erm (0.00 / 0)
That's just wishful thinking, assuming that others think as you do. What evidence do you have for that?

An awareness of public stances by prominent Democrats on the issue of the war before and after?

I don't have the time (or lexus-nexus account) to go back and dig up quotes or references from 2004/05 and compare them to mid 2006, but Marko's initial post sums up this position:

Prior to [Lamont's victory], Rahm Emanuel, as head of the DCCC, was telling Democratic candidates to steer clear of the war. After that primary, the Dems fully embraced ending the war in their campaigns and won huge that fall.

The actual lesson learned (for Democrats) is that you can lose a primary if you skirt (or support) the war as an issue. In other states there are real Republicans that make "pulling a Lieberman" a non-option for incumbent primary losers, so this helped motivate a change in behavior for the sake of self-preservation, which is how democracy is supposed to work.

On the protest side of things, the same dynamic depends on media optics and the sense that the electeds may face popular electoral consequences as a result of the protest. 10 million people really are "a focus group" for all intents and purposes. In this way, contemporary left-wing protest activism is largely self-marginalizing.

I should note that at the local level opinion dynamics can be significantly different, and it's also feasible to for a protest to have a hard-power component (by significantly disrupting the operations of the existing power; tree-sitting, for instance) so there's a lot more viability. At the statewide or national level, though, not so much.

Me | My Work | Future Majority


[ Parent ]
Paul (or Chris, or Daniel, or ...), (4.00 / 1)
can you please take a look at the subject from a political prism in one of your diaries?

thanks


Not Sure What You Mean (4.00 / 5)
Care to be more specific?

For what it's worth, I think that street protests can, will and must get a lot more common and confrontational over the next 6-18 months in order to start moving the Dems to the left, or there's a very real chance of major mid-terms loses in 2010.  It's not the street protests alone that I expect to produce any change, but absent them, I don't think we stand much of a chance of getting the sort of change we need.

I could be totally wrong on this, of course. But I know it took some time for street activism to rise significantly during the Great Depression, and I know that that rise is a good part of why the Dems moved solidly to the left.  The Republic Windows and Doors sit-in was a glimmer of what that looked like, and look what it did.

Is that the sort of discussion you're talking about?  Or did you have something else in mind?

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
yes (0.00 / 0)
I'm curious on what the potential political effects (on obama's agenda, midterms, next election) of this situation can be

[ Parent ]
ha! (0.00 / 0)
I just don't want to see the right winning

[ Parent ]
If the street protests get more confrontational... (4.00 / 2)
...from the left, then you will prophesy will be self-fulfilled...

We will lose big time in 2010 if our party ends up looking like the 1968 DNC...

"I think [Obama's] critics on the left need to be aware of some of these realities and show some patience and willingness to compromise. Success will build upon success..."  -Ben P.


[ Parent ]
More Ahistorical BS (4.00 / 4)
(1) There IS no convention in 2010, so how's that supposed to happen?

(2) Who said anything about party activists?

(3) The reference frame is the 1930s, and how street activism helped move the whole country to the left, carrying the Dems with them.

Why do you keep thinking of historically inappropriate reference points?  Is there any reason under the Sun that folks in a totally different socio-economic situation should act that way?

This is just total illogic on your part.

It's cable news "thought".


"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
Ahistorical (0.00 / 0)
Granted, the specter of '68 isn't terribly appropriate here.

But, maybe 1933 isn't either. You have to consider the fact that opinion-forming dynamics have changed in the past 75 years. A lot.

Getting a bunch of people into the streets seems unlikely to have much effect on mass popular opinion, or the behavior of our beloved elected officials.

Not saying people should do nothing, but I don't think "taking it to the streets" is going to be very effective as a primary strategy, or even central tactic.

Me | My Work | Future Majority


[ Parent ]
Hmmm (4.00 / 1)
I think you underestimate the way in which 2009 is not like 1933. Street protests, as we currently understand them, are unlikely to motivate a leftward shift from elected Democrats. I just don't think they'll be scared or motivated, because it doesn't actually affect them in any way, and their electoral calculus remains about winning a general election in "the center."

A coherent set of goals (think "A Responsible Plan To End The War In Iraq") coupled with primary-challenge organizing, fundraising, recruiting, however...

Me | My Work | Future Majority


[ Parent ]
I am from Chicago and not surprised. (4.00 / 3)
Ok now you are sseeing what many of us from Chicago have seen all along.  In some ares Obama will be a good president but he is not a transformational leader.

So the now the honeymoon is over the questions is what do we do now?

We still have an opportunity to move forward and we need to make the most of it.


Well, I Never Expected Obama To Be Transformational (4.00 / 3)
I just expected him to be less of a rigid obstacle than he's been to date.

More like a 60/40 balance of right-to-left appointees than a 90/10 "balance".

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
I guess it depends on what you define as transformational.... (0.00 / 0)
There was an article recently listed by Marc Armbinder at The Atlantic that talked about how Obama isn't the kind of guy who wants to destroy American institutions and then rebuild them, he prefers to repair them and make them stronger.. I wish I could find the link... it really seems to nail his philosophy to date...

Most people won't admit it, but FDR was the same way... of course, he didn't have enemies as powerful as Fox News trying to drag him down...  

"I think [Obama's] critics on the left need to be aware of some of these realities and show some patience and willingness to compromise. Success will build upon success..."  -Ben P.


[ Parent ]
Obama Is No FDR (4.00 / 6)
There are so many things wrong with this narrative, it's hard to know where to begin.  But both FDR and LBJ were transformational, and so far Obama is utterly clueless about what either of them was up to.

FDR and LBJ knew how to serve up a Sunday feast.  Obama knows how to say, "Would you like fries with that shake?"

We'd be better off with Clinton.

George Clinton, that is.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
Obama is no FDR... (2.67 / 3)
But, I find it interesting that everyone here praises FDR as a super ideal...  I think if FDR was president now, he'd be hated on openleft as much as Obama, if not more...  He saved the banking system instead of destroying it... he pumped money into the financial system, instead of punishing the bankers... and, most notoriously, his goal was to restore capitalism to a functioning state instead of demolishing it and replacing it with something brand new...

With the exception of TARP, all the bank bailout moves with the fed and treasury have their precedent in FDR's administration... That's why I find it ironic when people scream about fed pumping money into the banking system, for example... Where do you think that Bernanke got the idea?  From the lessons of the great depression... Why did Paulson have the power to pump money or take over AIG, Fannie Mae, etc.?  'Cos the reforms of the thirties explicitly gave him the power and guidance to do so!

Obama's, "My administration is the only thing standing between the bankers and the pitchforks," is not much different than FDR's, "Gentlemen, you can deal with me, or you can deal with them (pointing to the mob outside)."

FDR is the godfather of the bank bailout. His goal was to save wall street and employed wall street insiders (i.e. Joe Kennedy) to do just that... His methods were different (and apparently more acceptable to the openleft crowd), but he created or expanded the government institutions and programs to prevent future economic disasters... That is what we are doing now... utilizing the tools his administration created to prevent economic collapse.

There is an interesting disconnect here where people say it's OK that FDR bailout out wall street, but it's terrible that Obama is doing the same...  Maybe people aren't aware of how much FDR did to save Wall Street and traditional capitalism...  He pumped money into it like crazy... bailed out all sorts of private companies and institutions... I can't imagine what the reaction would be today to such a plan...

I think that openlefters would have been EXTREMELY vocal about FDR's presidency at this point in time of his first term... much more so than even Obama's... The New deal didn't start for another 2 years really, including labor reform...  People would have been screaming here about the delay...

And we haven't even gotten to the Japanese internment camps of his presidency, yet...  And, of course, FDR funded the development of the nuclear bomb...

And FDR didn't even have Fox News to deal with slowing him down...

LBJ had his own share of problems... The New Deal reached a pinnacle under his watch, but it also literally died with his abbreviated presidency.... The new deal coalition broke up, and the new deal itself has been hacked apart, piece by piece, by republicans since then...

No one man is perfect... no president "pure"... we take the good with the bad, and we hope to get more of the good.  So far, I think we are in better shape than people give him credit for... considering the state of the body politic the past 30 years... Change takes time and patience... I don't see much patience around here...

"I think [Obama's] critics on the left need to be aware of some of these realities and show some patience and willingness to compromise. Success will build upon success..."  -Ben P.


[ Parent ]
"Hated" Is Your Word, Not Ours (4.00 / 9)
I've said this over and over again, politicians are not your friends.  You don't know them personally.  They are political actors, and need to be treated and related to accordingly.

In light of that, it's absolutely true that if FDR were in office today, we'd be pushing like hell for him to do more.  In fact, we've pointed out repeatedly that FDR even asked people to do that.

Similarly, LBJ was engaged in waging a genocidal war, at the same time that he was passing the most progressive package of domestic legislation anyone had ever seen, with the sole exception of FDR.

Contradiction is the name of the game.  And if you can't handle that, then you really ought to stick to watching cable.  

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
Rereading my post... (4.00 / 1)
I realize that "hated" was the wrong word... I shouldn't have used it... If I could edit, I'd remove it.... I think the better word would be "vocal"...

And thank you fro cringing up the LBJ contradiction... that's a very important point... For as much as most of us like LBJ, his Vietnam war policy made Bush look like a reasonable pacifist...

"I think [Obama's] critics on the left need to be aware of some of these realities and show some patience and willingness to compromise. Success will build upon success..."  -Ben P.


[ Parent ]
. (4.00 / 1)
To me the problem seems to always come down to tactics. I mean as far as policy, it's pointless to expect you to get more out of Obama than he promised. But as far as leadership:

Obama works the way Obama works. Take cap and trade. Obama's not going to make some huge knockdown drag out fight for it if he doesn't have to do so to get it passed. He can get things done quietly just through the EPA and the courts. Yet people will bitch and moan about him not being a "leader" simply because he's not scratching some stupid rhetorical itch of theirs and demonizing the other side. Doesn't mean you're getting fast food.

It's that rhetorical itch that had a great deal of the netroots backing John Edwards of all people. He could punch the other side in the nose and somehow that was more important than what could actually get done. It was more important than potential or policy.


[ Parent ]
punching the other side in the nose -- in order to do good and get an agenda enacted -- is leadership -- (4.00 / 2)
it's what's necessary -- and mandatory.

that's what Obama refuses to do entirely -- he won't fight for good things for us or draw lines in the sand on things that benefit US.  


[ Parent ]
. (0.00 / 0)
But it doesn't get shit enacted. Hasn't gotten shit enacted for 20 years. But you guys keep working on the "fuck em, at least we're right" strategy. Maybe it will work another 20 years from now.

[ Parent ]
You are right .. (4.00 / 4)
FDR gave money to the banksters ... but he also instituted genuine reforms ... something Obama hasn't done yet .. and I see little urgency from Congress and Obama for them

[ Parent ]
. (0.00 / 0)
The way I see it, if Obama interned muslims, and punted on gay rights, then perhaps he'd live up to FDR's status.

M I RITE?


[ Parent ]
If Obama interned Muslims (4.00 / 3)
and gays both, you'd be right here, telling us it was a genius plan of his to "quietly" work through something or other.

If you liked Bush, you'll love McCain

[ Parent ]
LBJ Was Tranformational (0.00 / 0)
on lying about The Gulf of Tonkin, and escalating the war in Vietnam?  What?

[ Parent ]
LBJ Was Tranformational (4.00 / 1)
despite lying about The Gulf of Tonkin, and escalating the war in Vietnam.

You think this isn't transformational?

Life is complicated and full of contradictions.

Have you learned nothing from Buffy, the Vampire Slayer?

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
Point 3 basically summarizes my feelings on the subject (4.00 / 1)
"(3) Kos's arguement is, basically, that leftist protests are ineffective because they are "amatureish".  But he offers no real argument or evidence for this.  It seems far more likely that they're ineffective because they lack institutional support.  As such, the only way they can possibly be effective is via generating more widespread forms of social action or change in values and perception over a longer time-frame.  In short, Kos is talking as if political effectiveness were a matter of presentational effectiveness--always a big concern for electoral campaigns--when there's no real reason to take this level of explanation as fundamental for issue organizing or long-term movement-building.  Rather, one would expect presentational effectiveness to reflect deeper levels of organizational effectiveness, which in turn require a much more sophisticated sort of analysis than Kos provides.  Books like Pivens & Clowards' Poor People's Movements: Why They Succeed, How They Fail are relevant here."

For protests to really be effective, you absolutely NEED leaders and institutions that will be receptive to them, otherwise all the protesters might as well be sitting alone in their rooms talking to themselves.  The left-wing protests of 1980's Britain, the 2003 Iraq War protests, and today's teabaggers were all ineffective because the powers that be couldn't care less if there were 100 or 1 million people on the street. Rather than spending time and effort into creating a large scale street protest, activists would be better served to focus time and effort into building the "institutional support" that you reference.


Two Things (4.00 / 8)
First of all, one of the points that Pivens and Cloward stress is that poor people lack the resources to build such institutions, and so their greatest power comes simply from disrupting business-as-usual.  So this goes directly against what you're saying.

However--point 2--we're not talking specifically about poor people's movements here, and I've long held the same perspective you express about the need for institution-building. However, during a time like now--and looking forward to the next few years of economic distress, I think there's likely to be considerable interaction between street activism and institution-building.  Or at least there will be if we are to succeed in any substantive degree.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
I'm not against all street protests (4.00 / 1)
I'm just saying that they would be far more effective against someone who should be ideologically aligned with you.  No purely left-wing protest was going to affect Bush, and no purely right-wing protest is likely going to affect Obama.

Another problem with these types of protests are that they are generally not composed of poor people who lack resources, but instead by ideologues who have the time to take essentially academic topics (justification for war/disputed economic theories) to the streets.  Genuine movements of the poor, such as the immigrant marches seem so much more real because the marchers really are people whose daily lives and economic existence depends on the policy outcomes taken on the issue.  


[ Parent ]
Again About Tactics (4.00 / 3)
Protests have been an important ingredient of a number of important local organizing efforts I've covered as a reporter over the last several years.  There are a number of reasons that these are more efficacious than anything to do with national politics.  But the financial crisis we are in right now could well change that, so I think folks would be well advised to keep their minds open and their thinking flexible.

I make no claims to special knowledge here, as the one thing I do know is that the strongest precedents we have are not that close in space, time and culture.  But the potential for the unexpected seems bound to increase significantly.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
I agree that it is not an either/or proposition (4.00 / 6)
I am old enough to have participated in the anti-war movement in the 70's.  Demonstrations, civil disobedience, and active involvement in all phases of electoral politics were going on simultaneously. The controversy over tactics was primarily between those who sanctioned forms of violence against property (or even persons), and those who supported all forms of non-violent struggle, the latter being the far more prevalent viewpoint.  
Today there are other disagreements about tactics, based on supposed utilitarian arguments instead of ethical ones.  I understand Kos's personal aversion to the theatricality of street protest, and I think there are people who have always wanted to work through established electoral channels.  That that personal preference is elevated to holy writ for the movement is something that I don't understand, however.  I don't see why we need to reject some tactics because some find them aesthetically displeasing.
Perhaps some tactics are more effective in the current political environment, but I'm not so sure.  We are in a new era, and we need to examine assumptions that we have been operating on over the past eight years, and look at new ways to effect political change.  I believe we need to look at types of public protest and try adding them to the forms of activism that have been successful over the past eight years.  I'm afraid if there is not a new approach, we will fail in pushing the Democrats in Congress and in the White House to the left.  Without transformative change, Americans will start looking for alternatives to the Democratic party as the economic situation shows no sign of improving.  The danger that rightwing populism will become an even bigger part of the mainstream, and somehow gain momentum could then become a reality.
We must do everything we can to overwhelm the corporatist Democrats or there will be no real change.  And we must find new ways to organize and pressure the party leadership or this administration will surely fail.  
 

[ Parent ]
The Iraq war protests didn't include boycotts (4.00 / 2)
or disruptive civil disobedience.  That is why they didn't work. I can't build instutions, and I will never be an insider nor can I be.

[ Parent ]
Sorry, Dameo... (0.00 / 0)
I hit the wrong rating for a second... you got troll rated inadvertently... fat fingers on my part!  I meant to uprate you, not downrate you... I apologize for the error...

"I think [Obama's] critics on the left need to be aware of some of these realities and show some patience and willingness to compromise. Success will build upon success..."  -Ben P.

[ Parent ]
They are amateurish (4.00 / 1)
They seem to have a romantic notion that if you just gather up enough people, the mere presence of numbers will be effective.

People process information by placing facts into narratives.  They often ignore facts that don't fit into their narratives, so you need to present shocking images to force people into cognitive dissonance.

If you want an exact citation, it might take me a while to find it, but I have read that the words of '60s civil rights protesters discussing the desire to provoke white Southern racists into using things like firehoses and dogs because those images would affect the rest of the nation.  And it worked.

There has to be a master plan at work for the image you want to project and that's not something that you'll get out of a spontaneous uprising unless you luck into getting police to over-react and make the other side look like thugs.  

I might even say that leftist protests in America are usually a bit too peaceful to work.  A bunch of people show up?  Big deal.  A bunch of people who might riot show up?  The media will have to cover it.



Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both


[ Parent ]
Careful what you wish for... (0.00 / 0)
...the city riots of the late 1960's ended up breaking the new deal coalition, and the new deal itself...  Vietnam war riots prolonged our involvement in that conflict and brought Nixon to power...

Independents and moderates are still the majority in America, and they don't like riots from either side.  Had the teabaggers been more violent, the left would have benefited...

I think people are losing wight of the big picture... and there seems toe be a sense of self-sabotage here as well... Is the goal to actually push forward to change, or make such a stink that it never happens, but we feel good about ourselves for the process, even such actions may actually hurt the cause..

"I think [Obama's] critics on the left need to be aware of some of these realities and show some patience and willingness to compromise. Success will build upon success..."  -Ben P.


[ Parent ]
The Key Violent Protest of the 30s Was The Bonus March (4.00 / 4)
when the army shot the WWI Vets.

That's the time-frame I'm thinking in terms of.

The vast majority of what happened then was firm and determined, not violent.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
That fits in with the government overreach.. (4.00 / 1)
...idea that's been expressed here...  which did make it very effective...

In addition, the bonus marchers had a lot of public sympathy going into their protest as well... That makes a big difference, too...
 

"I think [Obama's] critics on the left need to be aware of some of these realities and show some patience and willingness to compromise. Success will build upon success..."  -Ben P.


[ Parent ]
And the leaders of the army .. (0.00 / 0)
group that broke up the Marches were later to be heroes .. go figure

[ Parent ]
I didn't say I wished for anything (4.00 / 3)
I share Markos' skepticism towards protests because I think they generally don't work and I don't necessarily want to see the left go through the necessary steps to have efficient protests.

The way that protests influence politicians is to scare them.  Either they scare those in power into overreacting or they scare those in power into submitting.  And it's not fear of democracy that scares the powerful, it's fear for their personal well-being.  It doesn't have to be an actual threat of violence, just a perceived threat.  That's a lot easier to do when you have paranoid types such as far-right conservatives in power.  Arguably, huge protests have more power right now if they are in support of Obama because they instill in people a fear of some sort of cult around Obama.

The big picture is that if you use protests as a form of political action, you're usually not protesting for the benefit of those partaking in the protest, you're protesting to affect the people who stayed at home.  Simple numbers don't impress anyone anymore; you need a more compelling story than having record-breaking turnout.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both


[ Parent ]
I don't believe the protest prolonged the war. (0.00 / 0)
They're is no evidence that the democrats were ending it.

[ Parent ]
The New Deal Coalition Consisted (4.00 / 3)
of DixieCrats, a rascist Congress from South that eventually needed to be broken up.  Unless, you did not want to see blacks in this country every getting the right to vote and other civil rights.

LBJ knew we would lose the South for some time, but he did the right thing.


[ Parent ]
Another point (4.00 / 1)
I would also dispute the implication that a street protest necessarily equals or has any relation to a genuine people's movement.

So many of these modern-day protest seem to place so much emphasis on their one off events that nearly always cab be ignored or easily mocked instead of building long-term institutions for change.


The Protests Kos Praised (4.00 / 1)
were virtually one-off events, too.

To the extent that they were more effective than most, this was due to their building on top of previous efforts.  To the extent that they fell short, there wasn't that much capacity to follow up effectively.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
Great incite here...lots to think and ACT on. Keep up the good work! (4.00 / 1)


I meant insight, but this worked too:) (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
You can't hold kos to too high a standard (4.00 / 2)
He was a wannabe blogger when Howard Dean asked the big question in March 2003: "What I want to know is what in the world so many Democrats are doing supporting the President's unilateral intervention in Iraq?" dkos was the place to talk about it. It was a hard wall in the echo chamber that helped Dean to take in tens of millions of dollars for his candidacy. dKos was (and to a certain extent remains) the AOL of the post dot.com bubble pop. He seems to be a good guy, but the success of his site is mostly technical. A lot of his front pagers still don't use their real names on their posts. As good as their writing is sometimes, they're not taken seriously when they don't even identify themselves by name. dKos did what it did. And a lot of what it did, was "be" there when Obama was elected.

Obama's mostly a media creation. So be it. He's less worse than the alternative. I'll take it. We all will. Obama's major intellectual contribution was his purple speech. That wasn't just his starting point, appealing in its Sesame Street simplicity. That was, we'll know in seven years, the sum of what he had to offer. He never said he'd be courageous. He told us it was audacious to hope. He told us he'd give us change we could believe in. We could project onto that whatever we wanted.

It's funny that Obama has been packaged so beautifully that it doesn't matter what his substance is; the precise opposite, I think, of Dean. dKos hasn't had much new to offer since it started hyping Obama in 2004. Markos and his kids changed the world; no doubt. Big deal. What's next?


really? (0.00 / 0)
By all accounts Dean was a moderate governor.  What's the substance that is so different, other than failing at getting elected?  Did his DNC make the Democrats anti-war?  



New Jersey politics at Blue Jersey.


[ Parent ]
Kos is full of shit ... about a lot (4.00 / 3)
First of all, emanuel was still pushing candidates not to make the war an issue after LaMont won his primary.  I know that for a fact becoz I was working for a Congressional candidate that was originally anti-war, but once he came back from DC to try to get some funds from the dccc, he all of a sudden would no longer take a strong stance on the war.

Those women in Code Pink have a lot of courage.  It's not EZ 2 go out there and risk making an ass of yourself, but they don't care.  They literally get in the face of the people who fuck us over and whom rarely ever have to deal with any consequences for it whatsoever.  They believe in fighting back and they deserve a ton of credit for their moral conviction, I wish the head pr man for the establishment possessed half of the moral conviction they do instead of being more concerned about placating public anger than actually addressing the justified root causes for it.  Like I've said for a while, he is a fucking fraud.  

Women is this country generally have much more moral courage than the men ... especially the men  in power.  Elizabeth Warren, Cheryl Watkins, Cindy Sheehan, Code Pink, Cathleen Rowlins ... the FBI agent that exposed the FBI failures on 911, Elvin Hayes' sister .. Greathouse or something .. the one that exposed the corruption of no-bid contracts while she worked in the DOD I think it was, Karen Kwiatkwoski, Brooksley Borne, etc., etc., etc. .. leave it to the women becoz the men in power are corrupt, self-centered cowards.  And almost all of those women have paid a price for sticking up for what was right and going against the corrupt male-driven establishment.  Again, mr. fraud does not have 1/10 of the courage to take on the establishment that these women have shown.

What public protests are for IMO, is the hope that they will evolve into something so uncivil that they threaten the establishment's system and hopefully put some physical fear into them that maybe the fire will jump the moated security in their gated communities and trespass into their insulated lives.  Same for the politicians that sell us out and basically are traitors to the American people.  For these fuckers do not fear the public ... they hold us in disdain ... their actions tell us that.  They do not fear the law for it does not apply to them for the most part. They do not fear not being reelected for as long as they make wall street and big money interests their constituency, they will have a plum job waiting for them once they leave office.  What they need to fear ... what would be a healthy fear for our democracy ... is that they risk physical harm by selling out the American people.  And that they may never make it to that plum job they've been betraying us and their oath of office for.  That's the facts .. they are not polite, but that is the truth.

As far as Kos, his mindset is the mindset that the establishment loves and has no fear of whatsoever.  And the ineffectiveness of his actions is indicative of that.  

Z  

   


It's easy to go out there and make an ass out of yourself (0.00 / 0)
I thought the teabagging fiesta proved that.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both

[ Parent ]
Not for normal people. (4.00 / 2)
Like the women of Code Pink. They aren't freaks like the teabaggers, or the fetus wavers.

If you liked Bush, you'll love McCain

[ Parent ]
anti-war movement maligned (4.00 / 7)
In 2003, the world wide protests of 15 million people in the streets and widespread diplomatic opposition, came extremely close to stopping the invasion of Iraq.  Street protests and contentious US grassroots opposition were used by the organizers as the key to stopping Bush. We never deluded ourselves that lobbying, online organizing, legal challenges, or electoral politics would be sufficient to prevent the invasion. Most of the leverage on the Bush admin. was from abroad. A primary movement strategy was to communicate to the world that the US public was deeply divided. The movement needed to flip Turkey and UK. Turkey's parliament refused to give the US permission to invade from its territory and Blair barely staved off a Labor party revolt. If UK had joined Turkey in opposing the invasion, Cheney would have had to call it off. we came very close to flipping UK and stopping the invasion.


Quite True (4.00 / 4)
The media was just so bad that even most anti-war activists had very little sense of how close we came to stopping it all.

BushCo really shit a brick when Turkey told them, "No dice."  They were apoplectic over the notion that 98% popular opposition could cause a country to turn them down.  Especially a Muslim one.  Who told them they could have anything remotely resembling  democracy?

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
Letting a hundred flowers bloom (4.00 / 9)
Kos is young, and full of himself, and dead wrong about protests. The Code Pink folks work one side of the street and he works another. It's emblematic of our time that we have both. Equally emblematic is what we don't have, namely the industrial labor movement which was once the backbone of social change, and is now gone, very likely forever. (The disappearance of industry changes many things, hardly any of them for the better.)

What we need now to see our prophecy fulfilled is a little help from events -- if things are as bad as we say they are, we'll have ample opportunity for recruitment, and for institution-building. Both protests and Kos's election wonkery will be part of this, as will an Internet teeming with committed people thinking out loud in public.

Patience. (This is not the same as apathy, despite the protestations of self-styled activists who show up here from time to time with the backs of their ears still damp.)


I'll take Kos seriously... (4.00 / 1)
When I see him address the substantive class issues in the Democratic party. But I'm guessing that won't happen anytime soon.  

Obama's reelection rests on the following (0.00 / 0)
1) No negative surprises in the foreign policy arena

2) A consensus that the economy has normalized

As Chief Diplomat, Obama is doing a great job.

And the goal of economic normalization by 2011 is within his grasp.

It is unfortunate that he allowed the Nuremberg Precedent to be undermined; if he wasn't going to prosecute, the least he could do is not try to justify it...

Meanwhile, there is work to be done in areas of science, technology, community organization, philosophy, and spirituality. One of the sad long term effects of the last 8 years was that the Big Questions went neglected while we did our utmost to rollback fascism. Now that we have a little breathing room, we need to devote our energy to the above and not to hassling Obama.

Obama will do a great service to humanity simply by winning another term: the longer the power to appoint military officers is kept away from the neo-cons, the safer we will all be. Technology and economics will do the rest.


I can give a fuck about getting him reelected right now or his reelection chances (4.00 / 1)
He was elected to serve the public and to uphold the constitution, not to run for reelection.

Z


[ Parent ]
I do, I do a lot (0.00 / 0)
I don't want a cheney/rumsfeld/ashcroft government

[ Parent ]
Neither do I which is (4.00 / 2)
why Obama shouldn't be embracing the right to torture, the patriot act or any of Bush's other bogus powers.   Eventually there will be a republican President whether you like it or not so lets make rules to make another Bush impossible.  

[ Parent ]
You prevent another bush administration by upholding the constitution and sending these bastards to jail rather ... (4.00 / 4)
... than worrying about "dividing the country" and all that other pragmatic bullshit that's got more to do with showing the establishment that he's a "serious" and loyal steward for them and their big donor dollars than actually doing his fucking job by upholding the constitution.  

For God's sake it's less than three months into his presidency and you dunderheads are worrying about reelection.  I'd like to think that we elect a president to do more than run a non-bush/cheney/rumsfield government ... which by the way he's had much more similarities with than almost any of his biggest pre-presidency critics could have imagined.

Z


[ Parent ]
Actually, I COULD Have Imagined This (4.00 / 2)
But I tried not to, partly because I wanted to be balanced--here's what could go wrong, here's how things could go right.  And I was already doing far too much of the former for too many people's taste.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"

[ Parent ]
yes (0.00 / 0)
these bastards do belong in jail, Obama shouldn't let them go free

I don't care about "dividing the country" (the country is already divided) or any other broder bipartisanship BS

like I said before, now that Obama did what he did, I'm just a bit wary if by undermining Obama, I'm paving the way for a right-winger


[ Parent ]
yes (0.00 / 0)
I totally agree Obama shouldn't have adopted any of these policies

but now that he has done it, I'm just a bit wary if by undermining Obama, I'm paving the way for a right-winger


[ Parent ]
I don't like being intimidated (4.00 / 2)
and slapped around, and I will react the opposite.

[ Parent ]
correct, correct (0.00 / 0)
very good point

thank you


[ Parent ]
The issue is an interesting one (4.00 / 2)
but I think goes even deeper, to the basic question of how progressive change happens. Conservative (in its traditional sense) ideology has been dominant throughout 99.9% of history, but it has been punctured from time to time by brief periods of progressive change. Odd little micro-periods occur, and things happen like the Magna Carta, the American and French Revolutions, the Enlightenment, Civil Rights, and so on. Then the "beware change" mentality re-asserts itself and history moves on. But how do those micro-periods develop? Modern liberals, especially the well educated, city-dwelling types, tend to assume it occurs via the Margaret Mead method: By virtue of a small number of dedicated like minded individuals speaking out, and thereby attracting adherents like a snowball attracts snow, until one day the snowball is so large it overwhelms everything in its path.

That almost never happens.

In fact, it is mostly a belief intended to comfort the egos of that small number of dedicated individuals. Basing their activism on this belief, liberal activists tend to create protests where everyone, or at least a large number of those present, can be one of those "small number." Hence the mishmash protest, the calling card of liberal activism that Kos (correctly) derides.

What does incite change are small protests that fit neatly into a cultural -- often religious -- framework of a mass of people. It is hard to imagine MLK and his peers being as successful as they were had they not mostly been ordained ministers able to talk powerfully and emotionally to a large mass of America. As many have noted, his best political speeches were essentially sermons. Gandhi, although I'm not sure he was religious per se, at least in his early years appealed directly and powerfully to Hindu nationalism, which was already present but politically latent. Or look at the French and American revolutions, which occurred inseparately from this huge cultural wave overtaking Europe called the Enlightenment.

Perhaps this is the same as saying protests only succeed with "institutional support." But I don't think a simple point of view on an issue -- such as Iraq -- is enough of a power source for protesters to plug into to create one of these micro-climates for change. It needs to be a much bigger cultural phenomenon. I think that's why Obama has not found a national thirsty for radical change. Or maybe he has, but if so I don't know if the moment is really right. WE as hardcore progressive may think so, but the culture may not.  


Different Perspectives (4.00 / 5)
(1) I've always thought in long time-frames, which is why I think change comes from a few--and it's what I've always taken Mead to have meant.

(2) At the same time, I also think that change is only possible because the vast majority of people are good at heart, and once the work is done to sufficiently cut through the BS of "received wisdom", they will do the right thing.  

For (1), see Harry Hay & friends and the Daughters of Bilitis.  For (2), see what's happening right now in unexpected places like Iowa.

Now, are there many different stages in between?  Yes.  And are there other aspect to politics as well?  Also yes.  But it's these major shifts that have always concerned me most, knowing that there are many, many others who ignore them entirely--or almost so.

Now, while it's true that progressive periods are generally relatively brief--as Mike Lux argues regarding US history--your calculation--0.1% of history--is off by quite a fair amount.  In fact, there's damn good evidence that most of human history--up till about 8K years ago or so--was predominantly progressive.  Subsistence bases do make a difference in terms of throwing the bias back and forth.  So we have to focus on our own times to make much in the way of a relevant argument--which brings us back to Mike's book as a much better ball-park guide, I would argue.

This:

What does incite change are small protests that fit neatly into a cultural -- often religious -- framework of a mass of people. It is hard to imagine MLK and his peers being as successful as they were had they not mostly been ordained ministers able to talk powerfully and emotionally to a large mass of America.

contains a grain of truth, but is far too simplistic, ignoring as it does so many different factors that either set the stage or happened simultaneously.

The impacts of WWII and the Cold War, just for starters.  King & the rest of the SCLC could have talked to America till they were blue in the face, but America wouldn't have given them the time of day before the Nazis deeply discredited racism, and the Cold War competition with the USSR for Third World influence made getting right on race a strategic imperative.  And yet, neither of those two factors would have had the impact they did without generations of black activists and white allies working against seemingly impossible odds, creating the pre-conditions that gave WWII and the Cold War the meanings that they took on.



"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
I found the "Kos on torture" quick hit lacking, because the (0.00 / 0)
major implication offered was that, were it not for leaders like Markos having little appetite for it, there already WOULD have been protests from the left, in fact, the implication offered here is that there SHOULD have been street protests from the progressive side already.

Wondering why there are no protests?

Uh, NO.  I am not at all wondering why there are no protests from the left against Obama policies. His approval level is particularly high amongst Liberals/Progressives, generally hovering around 95% to 99%. Why then would the left take to the streets to protest Obama policies (i.e. bank bailouts, perceived failure to offer a large enough stimulus, etc)?  There is zero logic offered here for the contention that there SHOULD have already been massive protests from the left other than the ad-hoc (false) implication, offered in the form of a truism that simply needs to be accepted as such (not unlike the conservatives chant "Obama=Socialist") that there currently is a strong groundswell of protest-worthy anger on the left, and were it not for the failure of people like Kos to embrace protests in principle, we would have already seen many protest on the streets.   Indeed, the truth here is that we have not seen protests from the left because the vast majority on the left does not feel like you do.

It is hard to stage "protests" when you don't have any numbers.  Indeed, the handful of true progressives voicing an honest disagreement against Obama would be drowned out multi-fold by gleeful conservatives, goaded on by Limbaugh/Beck/Hannity, to show their "solidarity" with the progressive anti-Obama crowd.

Thus further insuring that Obama's presidency continues its trajectory towards abject failure.

The vast majority of progressives disagrees with the sentiment expressed here.  Of course, "abject failure" is in the eye of the beholder, but from a progressive's point of view, if overwhelmingly your sentiment does not ring true with us, instead most progressives feel that Obama overall is on the right track, perhaps the minority view is the writers, and writers ALONE (joined by a few like-minded people on blogs like this one) and not representative of even a meaningful percentage the progressive movement AT ALL?   Thus, it should not be offered as a truism that just simply must be accepted as so.  It is the writer's personal prerogative to consider Obama's presidency on the trajectory to "abject failure," but given that you would be hard pressed to get even 5% of progressives in this country to go along with that sentiment it should not be dressed up as an undeniable fact on a progressive blog.    


Dear Leaderism on Parade (4.00 / 3)
That 67% of American's (including me) regard Obama personally as teh awesome is entirely irrelevant.

What is relevant is that on any number of issues from torture prosecutions to the bank bailout to increasing military presence in Af-Pak to ditching EFCA sizable numbers and in some cases a majority disagree with Obama's policies. And, in case you didn't notice, among those is included todays New York Times editorial page.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04...

Getting an Obama administration to take progressive stands on these issues will require pressure and it is pressure which can be brought to bear, particularly if institutional leadership, for example, labor unions decide to make this a priority.

It is not about Obama-it is about his policies.  The disposition to see everything through the lens of a subjective verdict on our leader's personality rather than objective results being achieved is perhaps what is at the root of the problem.

Thanks for providing a parade example of some of the basic misconceptions which need to be corrected.
 


[ Parent ]
You clearly asked "Wondering why there are no protests?" (4.00 / 1)
You are baffled that there are no street protests and put part of the "blame" on people like Kos, who don't care for street protests too much.  Disagreeing with Obama's policies in certain instances does NOT equate to a groundswell of anger that would necessitate street protests against them, as you would have it. There is no such thing as 100% agreement with everything any of our representatives do, and that goes for progressive champions like Kucinich and Russ Feingold as much as anyone.  You are leaping from "disagreement" with a few decisions to the necessity for street protests in one fell swoop.  Perhaps when as many as HALF of all progressives disagree with Obama on a majority of his actions, you get progressives to come out against them.  

To that extent, it is indeed very relevant that about 99% of progressives approve of the overall trajectory and policy/budget proposals of the Obama administration.  How can you have massive street protests when you are part of only 1% (or perhaps 3%, 4%) of an ideological group you claim SHOULD be going to the streets in protest of Obama's policies?

This has nothing to do with the Obama "personality," and please don't cheapen discourse by claiming that my post is a "parade" example of such (it is not.)  Obama was only my fourth choice during the primaries, I disagreed with him on a number of stances, which is why I chose against him (i.e. his health care proposal did not provide universality.)  But the reason the vast majority of progressives is NOT with you, and thus has no appetite to protest, indeed is quite satisfied overall with the trajectory of the presidency, is the fact that there are MANY MORE policy proposals and laws passed we agree with, that give us the idea that we are indeed moving forward on progressive principles.  The items you cite might be important as points of disagreement, but they are far outweighed by other policies that are agreeable to progressives.  

You should no longer WONDER why there are no massive protests.  Most of us believe that Obama's POLICIES (seen as a whole) have put us on a "success" trajectory, and therefore we have no reason to take it to the streets with anger protests.   Thus, disagreement with certain policies is much better vocalized in different ways (for example, the NY Times editorial you cite.)   There is simply no justification for what you call for.  Even though I share some of your sentiment of disagreement with some policies, for me (and, given the lack of protests and anger from our side, seemingly the vast majority of progressives) that does not rise to the level of disenchantment and anger you appear to believe should be permeating throughout the progressive community as a whole.  

To claim that those of us who disagree with you are doing so because we are Obama-smitten (apparently his smile and sweet personality turns us all into blinded groupies) is an attempt at dismissing those outright who disagree with you on the degree of disenchantment with Obama (and his administration) we should all be feeling, but simply don't.  Please engage on the honest disagreement with your position, not with an ad hominem.  


[ Parent ]
on popularity -- 64% of Dems now approve of Bernanke for instance, yet only 40% did before the election -- (4.00 / 1)
he's acting the exact same way he was before -- and we're giving away trillions now instead of just hundreds of billions (which people are not happy about)

what does that tell you about policies -- or rather, what does that tell you about how people see the very same people and policies they disliked so differently now simply bec their boss changed?

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.... -- Democrats, Republicans and Bernanke --

...     Despite Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke's solid roots in the Bush administration, new Gallup polling finds 64% of Democrats nationwide feeling confident in Bernanke's input on the economy, compared with only 36% of Republicans. This is a complete reversal of the Fed chairman's image among partisans a year ago, under President Bush, when Republicans had the greater confidence in Bernanke, 61% vs. 40%.

That's delicious, isn't it? Republicans like Mr. Bernanke only when he's working with Mr. Bush, and Democrats like him only when he's working with President Obama.  
...



[ Parent ]
John's Quick Hit On Kos May Have Been A Bit Hyperbolic (0.00 / 0)
Just as his quick hit on Obama was understated.  (After all, the contrast between Morales and Obama is virtually impossible to overstate.)

But it's the main thrust of them both that I'm concerned with here, not the manner of expression.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
I don't see why you're valorizing Morales (0.00 / 0)
He literally agreed that every voter must be fingerprinted.  

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/...

The lawmakers returned to the chamber on April 12 after Morales consented to the new voter registry, which will include photographs, signatures and fingerprints for all potential voters, in remarks broadcast the previous day.

"We consider it wise of the president to recognize the new registry," Senate President and Podemos member Oscar Ortiz said at a news conference at the Congress building on April 12. "It's a measure that is going to strengthen Bolivia's democracy."

The guy made a very serious compromise, the kind that would get very serious criticism here.  


New Jersey politics at Blue Jersey.


maybe I should be more clear (4.00 / 1)
I believe that the Morales episode is being presented as a kind of myth against Obama. I am not convinced that this myth of uncompromising, principled leadership is true.

Specially, we are being told that Morales insisted on getting electoral reform (i.e., getting 14 seats set aside), pushed the opposition with the hunger strike, and the opposition in the senate folded.  That's leadership!

When I look at the original article, it appears Morales instead agreed to a compromise. In exchange for getting 7 seats (half of his request), he agreed to a huge voter suppression scheme in the form of photographs, fingerprints, etc. This compromise appears to have been available before the hunger strike. The voter suppression scheme goes far beyond Republican efforts at requiring photo ID that have been repeatedly condemned at this site.  Oh yes, this is three years into the presidential term.  

So I conclude that Morales is a another politician, who despite declaring great victories actually had to give a lot up to the opposition in the senate to get part of his program passed.  Oh, that's leaderiness!

This does not appear to me to be different than the stimulus, the Iraq war withdrawal (perhaps), etc., where Obama has made significant compromises, except of course we do not have three years of Obama, so we cannot yet judge his most important promises (health care, war).

If it is qualitatively different, I'd like someone to explain how.  



New Jersey politics at Blue Jersey.


[ Parent ]
I've not participated in this discussion (0.00 / 0)
because I already believe protests are good, and I don't want to waste time with these debates.  I want to discuss tactics instead of validity.  

Why not encourage investors to pull their money out of Goldman Sachs and AIG?

Money talks and that would certainly be along the lines of the Montgomery bus boycott.


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