Herding cats: Some thoughts on the quest for a functional progressive coalition

by: Paul Rosenberg

Mon Jul 19, 2010 at 13:00


In the discussion of my earlier diary in this series, "Why is it so complicated to be a progressive?",  fladem wrote:

Frankly

this doesn't help me.  I think it intentionally evades some key issues.

Are Progressives socialists, or perhaps more accurately social democrats?  If so, why are these terms being avoided?

This made me realize that I haven't done a good enough job of articulating what I'm trying to do.  And if I want to be successful--particularly since I see this as necessarily a group process that I'm organizing and initiating--then making the purpose clear is of utmost importance.   So let me give you a quick description, and then try to flesh it out enough to have a meaningful discussion about it.

Basically, what I'm trying to do here is not to arbitrarily include some people out and some people in.  I'm trying to herd cats, as it were.  (The secret to herding cats? Fish!) I want to find a rational way to include as many people as possible not by resolving all our differences, but by finding a good enough (not perfect) principled framework that allows us to continue working together even as we disagree with one another in various different ways. (Our differences, properly dealt with, are a productive resource rather than an impediment.) I do have particularly strong problems with certain groups and tendencies--the neo-liberal third "Third Way" most particularly--but it's my intention that by getting to fundamental principles we can discern a framework through which those in that group--as well as any others--can choose individually and collectively if they are with us or against us, rather than issuing a blank edict.

In Don't Think of An Elephant, George Lakoff wrote:

From the point of view of a cognitive scientist, who looks at modes of thought, there are six basic types of progressives, each with a distinct mode of thought. They share all the progressive values, but are distinguished by some differences.
    1. Socioeconomic progressives think that everything is a matter of money and class and that all solutions are ultimately economic and social class solutions.
    2. Identity politics progressives say it is time for their oppressed group to get its share now.
    3. Environmentalists think in terms of sustainability of the earth, the sacredness of the earth, and the protection of native peoples.
    4. Civil liberties progressives want to maintain freedoms against threats to freedom.
    5. Spiritual progressives have a nurturant form of religion or spirituality, their spiritual experience has to do with their connection to other people and the world, and their spiritual practice has to do with service to other people and to their community. Spiritual progressives span the full range from Catholics and Protestants to Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Goddess worshippers, and pagan members of Wicca.
    6. Anti-authoritarians say there are all sorts of illegitimate forms of authority out there and we have to fight them, whether they are big corporations or anyone else.

All six types are examples of nurturant parent morality. The problem is that many of the people who have one of these modes of thought do not recognize that theirs is just one special case of something more general, and do not see the unity in all the types of progressives. They often think that theirs is the only way to be a true progressive. That is sad. It keeps people who share progressive values from coming together. We have to get past that harmful idea. The other side did.

Back in the 1950s conservatives hated each other. The financial conservatives hated the social conservatives. The libertarians did not get along with the social conservatives or the religious conservatives.

And many social conservatives were not religious.

I'll return to the conservatives briefly later on.  For now, I want to look at what Lakoff said about progressives.  

Paul Rosenberg :: Herding cats: Some thoughts on the quest for a functional progressive coalition
The point he makes is a very important one--though I must say that it's hard for me to grasp in a way, because I was fortunate enough to born and raised at an intersection of all the above.  My parents were social democrats, with a diverse range of mostly more-radical great aunts and uncles and grandparents.   There were plenty of strong women to make me an inherent enemy of patriarchy, there was plenty black culture to add a humanist depth to my parents political commitment to civil rights, and I was raised as a Unitarian.  Not only did this give me easy entry into all the progressive spiritual traditions, without hang-ups over the differences in texts and dogmas, it also exposed me to the Unitarian's patron saints Emerson and Thoreau, which pretty much covered the basic historical foundations of environmentalism, civil liberties, and anti-authoritarianism.

Because of this background, I can intellectually understand disagreements between the different sorts of progressives that Lakoff identifies, but in my gut, I can never really feel them.  They are inherently all facets of the same thing for me--all facets of where I come from, and what I am.  I can understand how people aligned with one particular facet might see my allegiance to all of them as weakening my allegiance to their facet. But my own lived experience tells me the opposite is true.  

That need not always be the case, of course, but I know that it can be.  What makes the either/or logic more compelling are outside factors--such as the legislative logic that dominates Washington, and most state and local seats of government as well.   The more that issues are defined by specific legislative proposals, and the less they're defined by deep values and broadly shared struggle, the more compelling an either/or logic will become--which in turn makes it more difficult for progressives of all sorts to realize their goals.  And of course, the more difficult legislative progress is, the more that logic will pit people against one another.

Matters are then made even worse by self-styled "pragmatists" who make a virtue of cleverly selling out first one faction, then another, all in the name of "getting things done."  In this manner, a strange kind of single-issue "radicalism" and no-issue "pragmatism" combine to produce a kind of faux "progressivism" that very few outside of Versailles would would voluntary identify with.  And yet, because of how our institutions and political practices have evolved--epitomized by Barack Obama's presidency and his own private "movement" (OFA)--many people buy into this faux progressivism as if it were the best thing imaginable.

Lakoff on Pragmatism

Lakoff also provides some insight into the workings of such pragmatism at a fundamental conceptual level.  But for this, we need to go back to Moral Politics, in which he describes how different forms of self-interest emerge as variants in both conservative and the liberal moral models. He calls this the "Pragmatic-Idealistic" dimension.  He first discusses this in the chapters devoted to each, but later provides a succinct overview.  First he talks about the conservative manifestation:

The conclusion of this passage is particularly important, because it underscores the degree to which the logic  conservative ideology limits the even how so-called "pragmatists" can stray.  This is not to say that such limits always work, of course.  After all, ideologies can be loudly affirmed in word on the one hand, while being utterly ignored in deed on the other.  And such inconsistencies are demonstrably more common on the right.  Yet, the fact remains that they are working against a underlying convergent logic.

Things are quite different on the liberal/progressive side:

For me, at least, rereading this passage--whose exact words I haven't read in years--brought a shock of recognition. It's hard to imagine a more perfect characterization of Obama's political center of gravity than this description of pragmatic liberalism--for example, when he spoke of the tragedy of Gaza in terms of Palestinians not being able to start their own businesses.  His concern was heartfelt, like a Ferengi quoting the 34th Law of Acquisition:  "Peace is good for business."

And yet, though he would not openly speak the 35th Law of Acquisition ("War is good for business"), he nonetheless accepts the curious logic that war is how one gets to peace--any decade century now.

So what's going on here?  On the one hand, Obama feels free to articulate the 34th Law--after all, it's a good liberal sentiment that even pragmatic conservatives can see the logic of.  On the other hand, however, once one affirms self-interest as the summum bonum, then pragmatic liberals and both types of conservatives stand together as one, isolating idealistic liberals as DFHs.  This is where Obama's logic is taking him, not just in terms of continuing Bush/Cheney's doomed war on terror, but all across the issue spectrum, sometimes more obviously, sometimes less.

One final very important point before I return to my titular theme: In a very different world, this alignment need not dominate as it does in our world today. The reason is quite simple: the breakup of the New Deal coalition and rise of the New Right changed everything in the political universe, including shifting notions of self-interest.  In the sort of generally synergistic economy that dominated the post-WWII era up until 1973 or so, it was generally a simple matter of fact that it was in one's self-interest for others to do well, and this practical logic worked against the dynamic I've just described, pulling even pragmatic conservatives into the progressive direction.

But that shift in logic was just one part of a larger gestalt.  As John Emerson has emphasized repeatedly, the Democratic Party leadership favored a form of interest group politics that gave everyone a piece, strengthening group leadership while keeping the masses divided.  That hasn't changed--but its effectiveness has, as the Democratic-dominated New Deal Party/Fifth Party System gave way to the divided government Sixth Party System.  The result is that a system that merely limited progressive power at its best has devolved into a system that is active aligned with the center-right as a junior partner. At the same time, conservatives "solved" the problem of their internal divisions by gaining legislative power and coordinating efforts through a variety of mechanisms such as  Grover Norquist's  Wednesday Meetings.  Their dependency on political success, rather than rational reconciliation, was dramatically underscored by how they fell apart and repudiated George W. Bush following the 2006 elections, and by how fantasy narratives--particularly persecutorial and conspiratorial ones-have dominated their comeback since then.

Conclusion

So here, then, is my grand conclusion:  There are at least two dimensions on which progressives are divided, and which require us to find ways of coming together that are grounded in common values.  Tackling either dimension alone will not be enough.  Yet, at the same time, it is not a matter of values alone, or of all that flows from them--such as coherent, compelling messaging.  It also matters very much what sort of world we live in, and what sorts of institutions dominate it.  For now we still live in a very conservative world, one dominated by countless micro-decisions being made mostly in a state of divided government, where those choices never had to gain majority support. And that world is crumbling because it simply cannot work.  

Yet, that is the world in which Obama (and so many others like him in Democratic Versailles) grew up politically.  It is the only world they know.  More than a year ago, Kevin Baker put his finger on it, writing for Harpers in "Barack Hoover Obama: The best and the brightest blow it again", which bystander referenced in a comment recently.  Baker's point was a subtle one, arguing that Hoover was far more intelligent and insightful than history now gives him credit for.   He may well have understood the problems of the day better than FDR did.  But he was unwilling and/or incapable of casting off the failed frameworks of the past--and Baker correctly identified Obama as the same:

Obama's failure would be unthinkable. And yet the best indications now are that he will fail, because he will be unable-indeed he will refuse-to seize the radical moment at hand.

Every instinct the president has honed, every voice he hears in Washington, every inclination of our political culture urges incrementalism, urges deliberation, if any significant change is to be brought about. The trouble is that we are at one of those rare moments in history when the radical becomes pragmatic, when deliberation and compromise foster disaster. The question is not what can be done but what must be done....

Much like Herbert Hoover, Barack Obama is a man attempting to realize a stirring new vision of his society without cutting himself free from the dogmas of the past-without accepting the inevitable conflict. Like Hoover, he is bound to fail....

More thoughts on this to come.  But for now I conclude with the simple point that breaking with the broken order of things is absolutely crucial for us as part and parcel of creating a unified progressive movement.  For it is the very logic of that world that is broken, and our movement is also broken to the extent it remains embedded in that broken world, rather than standing against it.

It's not just that another world is possible.  It's also that this one is not.

This is not an answer to fladem's question that opened this diary. It is, however, a necessary prelude to answering it. It's about the context in which the question is raised, and the context in which we work out our answers.  When terms like "socialist" and "social democrat" are more misunderstood than understood--and the same is true for "feminist", "environmentalist" and all sorts of other progressive terms--we have a lot of work cut out for us.


Tags: , , , , (All Tags)
Print Friendly View Send As Email

Meyers Briggs (4.00 / 1)
It appears the difference between pragmatists and idealists is exactly the classical difference between the Meyers Briggs Thinking(T) and Feeling(F) subtypes.

In fact, if you wanted to logically prove that the idealist was better, you'd be forced into pragmatist's frame.  Idealists, being true believers and natural nurturers, are better and producing empowered individuals who can look out for their own self interests and nurture others.

Idealists, on the other hand, don't need to prove anything.  Morality trumps all else.  Nurturing is just the right thing to do.


Well, Not Exactly, As I Understand Things (0.00 / 0)
In fact, if you wanted to logically prove that the idealist was better, you'd be forced into pragmatist's frame.

The nurturant idealist frame says "nurturance is better".

The nurturant pragmatist frame say "nurturance is better for getting into Yale".

I fail to see how the latter frame could possibly be used to argue for the former.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
So you think that pragmatism (0.00 / 0)
is defined by goals instead of process?

I would've said, "The nurturant idealist frame says "nurturance is better." The nurturant pragmatist frame says "getting into Yale to learn how to enact nurturance is better."


[ Parent ]
Perhaps I'm over extrapolating, but I think you don't understand (0.00 / 0)
We both agree what the nurturant idealist frame says.

Perhaps I'm over extrapolating what the pragmatist thinks, but I don't think so.  A nurturing society, after all, is one where everyone can better look after their own self interests, according to the pragmatist.  A society where everyone is empowered to look after their own self interest while simultaneously encouraged to nurture others, is a very productive, stable society.  This is classical T thinking.

The reason I said you'd be pushed into the pragmatist frame to logically prove idealists were better is "logically prove" is a T activity.  (So I'm at least internally consistent, if nothing else.)

It isn't a case of two competing morals, as only one side puts morals at the center.  It is more a case of morals versus ethics.  Real morals versus derived morals.

The pragmatist should be a good ally, but they are more easily led astray because they don't have the same moral center.


[ Parent ]
I Failed The Meyers Briggs Test (4.00 / 1)
One of the few "test" tests I know that I've failed in my life.  So maybe that helps explain it.

The questions asked were either nonsensical or unaswerable to me.  Not all, but too many.  So I just gave up.  "This is useless", I thought.  Obviously many others find it extremely useful, but since I couldn't directly relate in the slightest, I never did develop any interest in it.

But, with that disability in mind, I do follow your logic--which seems sound, so far as I understand it--and I can only surmise that the M/B T/F divide does not map onto the Nurturant Parent pragmatic/idealist divide.  It may somewhat map onto the divide, it may even a lot map onto the Nurturant Parent pragmatic/idealist divide.  But the mapping fails at least at the point where this argument is being made.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
INFJ (0.00 / 0)
You're an INFJ, same as my daughter.  (Yeah, I'm just guessing.  I'm usually correct, though.)

My sister feels the same as you.  When we were kids she wasn't "allowed" to take the test because she was too young.  (Quotes because the way a child remembers things may not be quite correct.  But it was definitely true she was younger than the test suggested.)  Later in life she found the questions stupid and ended up more or less straddling the line on each measure.

But I consider Meyers Briggs to be very useful, in much the same way research on learning modalities is useful.  It helps solidify the different ways we all approach life and helps us understand how to deal with those who think and feel differently than we do.


[ Parent ]
I Know It May Be Useful (4.00 / 1)
But it's hard to overcome the first-hand experience that it doesn't seem empirically well-grounded.

I always tested very well in school, and it was usually the case that I had the most trouble with questions that seemed to embody dubious, if not downright false assumptions.  I then had to figure out what those assumptions were, and what "correct" answer they implied.  Then I had to decide whether or not it was morally offensive to give the "correct" answer rather than the right one (if, that is, there was one).

Needless to say, this left a rather bitter taste in my mouth, and it all came rushing back when I encountered Myers Brigs in my early 20s.  So it not only seemed stupid, but also evocative of manipulation and deceit.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
It's a lot more empirical (0.00 / 0)
then multiple intelligences, at least.

MB can look and feel a lot like astrology.  But at it's worse, it is just asking you a bunch of questions and then spitting them back to you in an organized fashion.

BTW, I didn't actually like the previous link.  This one appears to be much better.


[ Parent ]
The questions did grate (very much so,) as far as I was concerned, (0.00 / 0)
but nonetheless I've found the results to have been very useful. I tend to think it's most useful for what is designed for, examining interpersonal dynamics and the conflicts that arise therein. I remember I had a professor in college who I just butting heads with again and again- stuff like having my grade lowered for not answering a question the way that most people in the class had answered it, an issue that wasn't resolved by my pointing to the specific place in the text that validated my answer. He conceded that it was correct, but still I had to answer it the way that the norm had established. My father then pointed me to Myers-Briggs and said to look up SJ's, and it became a lot clearer to me how to interact with this professor.

I would tend to assume that Paul wasn't on the intuitive side of things, but  I do find Paul rare in his ability to connect data-based reasoning with emotional logic. I find that many close followers of politics tend to be data-oriented thinkers, while others respond to the emotional aspects. And a lot of head-butting results from this gap; Paul can traverse both sides with ease. Which is perhaps why he finds the test so grating? Perhaps.


[ Parent ]
The unity of our discontents (4.00 / 4)
I didn't come from as beneficent a family background as you did -- far from it -- but by hook or by crook, I arrived at pretty much the same place. The issues dear to the hearts of this or that branch of the liberal/progressive/social democratic left do seem to me to be all of a piece, but then so do their opposites on the religious/propertarian/American (white) supremacist right.

Lakoff's model seems too narrow to me in one sense, in that some of us come by our values in a mix-and-match fashion. My father, for example, was a staunch proponent of hillbilly self-reliance, and male honor, but he also hated racism on the grounds that we're all God's children, etc. Some of that rubbed off on me, enough to give my liberalism a slightly different tint from that of the red-diaper babies I used to run with, but it didn't seem to matter much most of the time.

When all is said and done, Lakoff's is as good a first approximation of the fundamentals of who we are and why we fight as any I've run across. Authoritarians, it seems to me, are above all brittle. Theoretically, being more adaptable, we should turn out to be more resilient in the long run. At the moment, though, we're all acting a little bit like abused children. We need to look beyond that.


Your Example Doesn't Negate Lakoff (4.00 / 1)
Lakoff is quite clear that he talking about ideal types, or better yet, the inherent logic of models that people tend to adopt in whole or in part.  Different people frequently adopt different models in different parts of their lives, he notes.

For example, politically liberal professors at Berkeley often adopt Strict Father practices in the classroom--and to some extent (as with strictly following rules re citations, for example), there may not be any alternative.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
No, of course not (4.00 / 1)
I didn't mean to imply that Lakoff lacks subtlety, either as a thinker or writer. What I meant was that in some situations, what determines how we act isn't necessarily what the model -- or we ourselves -- would predict. I understand that Lakoff is aware of such intricacies, and that models are just that -- models.

I was being sidetracked, of course, into my own history -- how it is that I sometimes react to what is said in the diaries here in ways that surprise even me. Often that reaction is based not so much on what I thought I'd think (forgive me) but of some daemon of my past upbringing which is still ticking over somewhere in my back-brain, waiting to pop out and give me a hand, whether I want it to or not. Subtle creatures we, but that's not to say that ruminations like Lakoff's aren't intrinsically valuable. When we wrestle with angels -- or devils -- it never hurts to be forearmed.


[ Parent ]
Just So! (4.00 / 1)
The ultimate power of the Nurturant Parent framework is that it provides the understanding and capacities for the exorcism of our demons--both individual and collective.

The Strict Father framework, OTOH, provides for empowering demons (directly or indirectly) rather than exorcising them.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
the intersection of pragmatists and 'hippie punchers' (4.00 / 1)
I would guess it's a Venn Diagram with a huge overlap. Who is the right-wing equivalent of 'hippies'? It seems that the righties have totally assimilated their wingnuts into the mainstream. Who identifies as center-left?  

Who is the right-wing equivalent of 'hippies'? (4.00 / 1)
Libertarian followers of Lyndon LaRouche. Fewer and farther between recently. Rand Paul got smacked down by the "mainstream" GOPpers after that thing about anti-discrimination laws and the private sector.

But, you are correct, no one is a better punching bag than hippies. Everybody does it.


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
I actually think this is all very simple (4.00 / 3)
"Progressives" reject free market politics and economics. Some of us do so as socialists, some of us do so in support of some kind of middle path between the two (which is not the "Third Way" of Clinton and Blair). In case you're curious, I am an outright socialist and proudly so.

But the common thread is we all absolutely reject the idea that the free market does things better than government, that our economy should be oriented around whatever the "market" (i.e. large corporations) demand. We reject the notion that business knows best.

Instead we believe that there are other social needs that have to be addressed. We believe the market should be controlled in the service of those needs and values, and that other social/cultural/political/human needs should never, ever be made subservient to market forces or to the whims of profit.

There's more that follows from that, but the rejection of free market/neoliberal thinking is at the core of why we are "progressive" and not "liberal" (since liberals have historically been much friendlier to the market).


This Is Certainly True In The Economic Domain (4.00 / 1)
But the five other domains Lakoff mentions also need to be considered, as well.  And it's my argument here that (1) a similar divide exists in these other realms as well, and (2) an understanding of that divide across all six domains can help us better understand the divide in any one domain.

Just to provide a peek ahead (after Netroots Nation), I'm going to argue that dignitarianism is one way of coherently understanding that divide.  I'll also argue that situationism is another way of understanding that divide.  These will reinforce the distinction that Lakoff already makes.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
p.s. (4.00 / 2)
The liberal friendliness to the market is also much misunderstood.  It was never expected to be a panacea by itself, and Adam Smith, for example, warned quite explicitly against how the market could be corrupted and manipulated.  In fact, he argued quite strongly against the sort of monopolistic "marketplace" that dominates our world today.

More on this in diaries to come.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
"Free" market (4.00 / 6)
I have a few points.  I'll let you decide if this counts as agreeing or disagreeing.

1) No market is ever free for very long.  A free market is unstable because winners will use their advantage to solidify their position.

2) Conservatives are not in favor of a free market.  At every step you'll see that they protect the already empowered interests.  When they say something is "bad for business" they mean "bad for currently dominating business".

3) Conservatives actually have no faith in free markets at all.  They assume (so it seems) that any regulation or tax will completely break the delicate market place.  In reality, free markets are highly adaptable to such conditions.

4) I'm not sure any group is actually in favor of a truly free market.  Small businesses and entrepreneurs would seem the most likely candidates, as they want to knock down the current winners, but it isn't like they'll refuse help.  Libertarian liberals might actually favor free markets in theory.  I've yet to see much in practice.

5) In reality, free(ish) markets are a fantastic problem solving domains, much like evolution.  Left to their own, there is no guarantee they will work for the public good.  However, given the correct playing field, they can work for the public good.  You have to be very careful, though.  Evolutionary systems will adapt to their actual conditions, not the ones you think you created.


[ Parent ]
This Is A Good Summary (0.00 / 0)
But I actually think it's more dire than you seem to imply.  I've just started pecking at Michael Perelman's Railroading Economics: The Creation of the Free Market Ideology, which he begins by talking about how the massive railroad failures soured a significant group of conservative economists on the whole idea of competitive free markets.

The main reason, he explains, is the tremendous amount of fixed costs involved, which renders impossible the fluid movement of investments in response to changing demand.  Because they were concerned with the real-world loss of massive investments by wealthy and powerful people, they had a certain motivation to get real, despite other concerns.

So, it's an interesting beginning, framed in terms of actual history, rather than abstract arguments.  No telling how fast I'll be able to digest it--or even if I'll be able to read anything at all until well after Netroots Nation.  But part of the reason I even mention it publicly is to put some pressure on myself to follow up.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
In reality, free(ish) markets are a fantastic problem solving domains, much like evolution. (0.00 / 0)
Look how wonderfully it's worked out for America so far!

This is utter bullshit on so many levels.


[ Parent ]
Define the "problems" (4.00 / 1)
to be solved. Maybe the "free(ish)-marketeers" see different problems than you do.

Remember how easily healthcare reform morphed into health insurance reform? Those a different "problems" are they not? The former centered on people the latter on corporations.



"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
well fuck (0.00 / 0)
you've got me there

p.s. I'm told it's now "near-universal health care coverage"


[ Parent ]
problem solved! (0.00 / 0)
See how it works?

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Much better than the Aristocracy it replaced! (4.00 / 2)
But not nearly as good as what, hopefully, comes next.

[ Parent ]
Wanted: A Progressive Convention (4.00 / 2)
Going well beyond geography, this is a very big country. The prevalence of niche-finding specialization in our pluralistic system of groupings, even within a given ideological sphere, makes it even bigger, to the point of near unmanageability. But this is not an insurmountable problem.
You hit a lot of really important points here. If anything, herding cats is an understatement in our current situation. Your conclusion is spot on,

When terms like "socialist" and "social democrat" are more misunderstood than understood--and the same is true for "feminist", "environmentalist" and all sorts of other progressive terms--we have a lot of work cut out for us.

So my hope is for a Progressive Convention. Get all these groups in one place and start hashing out the greater narrative--I don't see that as a terribly daunting task, as long as there are no neo-libs in the room. Start getting these groups to exchange staff and volunteers with each other to improve communications, worldviews and goal setting. Let these groups all teach other and learn from each other what has worked in their cases and what hasn't. Create connections above competition. Create the ethos of "safety in numbers." Create an ethos of mutual defense and offense.

There's simply too much practical knowledge out there to not put it to use. It might also help certain people start to see things in a larger, more inclusive frame, especially if it helps them with their own work.

But there's one caveat: it would need to be an actually progressive convention and that means no big speeches from anti-progressive, neo-liberal pols. To my mind, this is easily the greatest failing of Netroots Nation. They were pretty damn quick to sell out to the Clintonoids and Obamabots. As such, it shouldn't be viewed as a progressive event at all, as it's dominated by neo-liberals trying to hang with the "cool kids" and coopt them. Indeed, that's exactly what happened.

To chime on Timberman's comment about abused children, the first step is to stop the abuse itself, and chant your other great line among several:

It's not just that another world is possible.  It's also that this one is not.

 

"More than any other time in history, mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness. The other, to total extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly." -Woody Allen, My Speech to the Graduates


rhymes with "ird arty" (0.00 / 0)
and I'm all in on this idea

rule one: no Democrats


[ Parent ]
Well, I'm a Democrat, so that rules me out, eh? (4.00 / 3)


"More than any other time in history, mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness. The other, to total extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly." -Woody Allen, My Speech to the Graduates

[ Parent ]
after all the comments I've read of yours (0.00 / 0)
I have no idea how on earth you could still self identify as a Democrat

and I mean that as a compliment


[ Parent ]
We all face this decision at some point (0.00 / 0)
it ain't like we have a laundry list of political parties to choose from.

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
I register Socialist Worker's Party in states where I can (0.00 / 0)
here in shitty Maryland, I am forced to choose from:
http://www.baltimorecountymd.g...

and hence must go unaffiliated

note the hilarious inclusion of the Constitution Party

man I hate this place


[ Parent ]
I don't recall having to choose a party when I registered (0.00 / 0)
Minnesota is the best place I have lived in terms of voting rules and regulations. They give us a space to write-in for every race on the ballot. And a fine tipped pen.

In Illnois, you had to write-in all the candidates for every race in one box, roughly 2 in. X 6 in, on the back of the ballot while "writing legibly" with the dull #4 pencil they supplied. About 4 letters fit legibly in that space. I'll let you guess which 4 I chose.


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Why Is It (4.00 / 1)
that I agree with so much of what you are for

and disagree with so much of how you against?

[This is a koan, not a question.]

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Zeroth Approximation (4.00 / 1)
He's got the same zeroth level approximation of reality you do.

Near as I can tell, though, he hasn't even bothered with a simple, linear coefficient.


[ Parent ]
you're the reason Chris Van Hollen is considered a liberal (0.00 / 0)
you, personally

[ Parent ]
Meyers Briggs (0.00 / 0)
Actually, I've just been trying to work that zeroth thing into a conversation -- bad habit of mine.

The difference probably more at the personality and temperament level.  I'm telling you, that Meyers Briggs thing is useful.  (Not that I'm sure what Travis is, care to help out, Travis?)


[ Parent ]
can't find an online test (0.00 / 0)
don't know, not sure I care

[ Parent ]
Work It! (0.00 / 0)
I've got the same bad habit.  Particularly with zeroth whatevers.  (Zeroth wave feminism: Daughters of Light: Quaker Women Preaching and Prophesying in the Colonies and Abroad, 1700-1775.) Any math guy or gal that doesn't have this thing for zeroth this and zeroth that is definitely under suspicion.

BTW, thanks for bugging me about Leverage.  Yes, it's unsatisfying in the way I thought it would be--almost total lack of twisty moral dimensions that Wedon & his crew are so good at--but it more than makes up for it on balance (especially in the current light entertainment tv environment).  Plus--keeping my fingers crossed for the editing process--I've managed to use it to frame a local news story I've been following.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Ooo...that would make an excellent gift for my sister, who had a Quaker (0.00 / 0)
wedding! You're like one of those suggestion generators, Paul. "If you like Open Left, you might also like..."

[ Parent ]
generation gap (0.00 / 0)
I derived this through intuition

and yes I did have to look up what a koan is


[ Parent ]
Two generation gaps, for you! (0.00 / 0)
My internet skills fail me, so I'm not sure how much older Paul is compared to your 31 years, but I know he's an older boomer.  (Found Paul's phone number, though, at (310) 51.... er, never mind.)

[ Parent ]
Don't Worry (0.00 / 0)
That's my work number.

And I almost always work from home, instead.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
That's a damn good question! (4.00 / 1)
Um, mostly it's because I'm still a registered Democrat. Additionally, I used to work on Democratic campaigns, did other field work, some fund raising of the grassroots variety and so on. But other than that, well, um, I don't really have a good reason anymore beyond history. Well, there's a large-ish constituency there that isn't being served, so maybe that's a good reason.

But thanks for the compliment.

There was a brief period in the late 80s in which a thing called the Green Party was threatening to become a reality. Sadly, it never happened, outside some folks calling themselves Greens and essentially calling it a day. But I was very open to it at the time.

Primaries also used to be a reason, but since Cali just basically made those irrelevant, there goes one more reason to chuck it.... ;^)

"More than any other time in history, mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness. The other, to total extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly." -Woody Allen, My Speech to the Graduates


[ Parent ]
Oh, there is one more reason: (4.00 / 2)
I'm completely supportive of any and all Democrats--that aren't neo-lib wankers--who wish to foment an intraparty insurgency.

That's actually the best reason, don't you think?

"More than any other time in history, mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness. The other, to total extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly." -Woody Allen, My Speech to the Graduates


[ Parent ]
so when does that start (0.00 / 0)
because as of right now I've yet to see any of them even disown Ben Nelson

[ Parent ]
I'm not talking about elites. They're largely irredeemable. (4.00 / 3)
Given all the hyperventilating going on within the elites, what with all this blaming bloggers (read: little people who should learn to take orders) and such for tanking Obama's numbers, I'd say it's already under way. It's not even organized or coherent and the elites are already waging rhetorical battle against their own supposed electoral base as a result.

This is precisely what pissed me off about the Party when I worked there. The hacks run the show. You have no idea just how petty, insipid and utterly stupid they are. It's just all about their personal turf for them. It's a culture so deeply imbued in it's own rationalizations/excuses that it can't think it's way out of a paper bag. Crises only serve to highlight the dysfunction.

But they do know how to go after the people they think are the cause of their discomfort. Hell, it's the only thing they're really good at.

Hence all this crap. They hear the noise, but they don't understand it.

That's why I see opportunities there. A little creative destruction can reap many benefits. There's a massively unserved constituency there. That's who I care about.

"More than any other time in history, mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness. The other, to total extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly." -Woody Allen, My Speech to the Graduates


[ Parent ]
This helps (4.00 / 6)
though I still am not sure if the goal is to define progressive as a distinct term from liberal or not.

The reason I injected socialism into the discussion is because I think the failure of communism has had an increadible effect on left of center thinking all over the world.  Much of the thinking that pervaded Labour under Blair and the Democrats under Clinton was informed by that failure.  In the 90's parties of the left throughout Europe spoke of a "new found appreciation of the markets and the role of incentives".  You can literally find language like that from the socialists in France and the SDP in Germany.  

Concurrently the rise of globalization fundementally changed the relationship of the state and the markets.  In a very big way, those on the left find themselves without a workable ideology.  Marxism is dead.   The Social Democratic model is increasingly difficult to sustain in an era where the cost of production is king.

In some ways the lack of a real ideology is less of a problem in the US than elsewhere.  The key elements of the liberal agenda are the adoption of portions of the Social Democratic agenda that were never adopted here.  Socialized Medicince for example.  At bottom this is simply the pent up articulation of the social justice portions of the liberal agenda that have never been completed.

But the inability to articulate what we want is more than revealing.  For example, many talk of an industrial policy.  That is important, but the term leaves many questions unanaswered.  In practice Industrial Policy has often amounted to what a German friend told me last month was "Corporate welfare with a human face".

The reason I am a liberal is simple: I can articulate what liberalism is.  Modern liberalism seeks to reconcile the importance of individual freedom with the imperative of social justice and the simple truth that we are all part of a larger community. At its core it recongizes that these objectives conflict with one another.   Modern liberalism owes much to classic liberalism in its understanding of the state and individual.  It recognizes (in a way the marxists never did) the fundemental danger of the coercive power of the state.  Modern liberalism recognizes, however, that the modern corporation in some ways is equally coercive, and must be restrained to protect human freedom.  

Lberalism also understands that unfettered capitalism (to the exent that such a thing ever exised) is self destructive and results in extremes in wealth that are incompatable with a just society.  As a result, it also owes much to the social democratic articulation of social justice.  Moreover, it is informed by the Keynsian view that capitalism must be understood as a system which means that social justice in many instances makes capitalism MORE effecient, and not less.  Because it seeks to understand capitalism as a system, it is somewhat agnostic to how the goals of social justice are achieved. This means at times it makes sense to use market incentives to accomplish social ends (eg cap and trade).  

However, liberals do not accept that extremes of wealth are acceptable.  In fact, classic liberals (Jefferson, Adams, Franklin) long warned that that such extremes were a threat to liberty.  In this they are fundementally do not accept what groups like the DLC have been willing to accept.  

Anyway, that is what liberalism means to me. How that relates to "Progressives" I haven't a clue.



holy shit (0.00 / 0)
The Social Democratic model is increasingly difficult to sustain in an era where the cost of production is king.

Except for in places like Spain and Norway where it's going quite well (considering the state of the world economy).  Also, arguably, Germany.

Just because you think Keynes is awesome doesn't mean that dumping all of our resources back into private hands will make everything work out.


[ Parent ]
Wow (4.00 / 1)
where did I say that I wander to dump everything in private hands?  Use straw men much?

[ Parent ]
that's pretty much the MO of modern Keynsian policy (0.00 / 0)
"let's throw lots of money at this (but not into any actual government programs)"

prime the pump, indeed


[ Parent ]
I want to say that Marxism is NOT dead. (4.00 / 5)
Leninism is what is dead.  Furthermore, Marxism isn't the only intellectual framework for Socialism.  The ideas of Bakunin and Kropotkin seem pretty extant still.  Michael Moore's latest film, "Capitalism, a Love Story," has a bit of Bakuninism and Kropotkinism in it.

Educate, Agitate, Organize, Mobilize, Act!


[ Parent ]
yes but you can't bash socialists without bashing Marx (0.00 / 0)
it's in the handbook

[ Parent ]
There's a handbook (4.00 / 1)
on bashing socialism?

Oh, wait.  Now I remember.  It's called "The Road to Serfdom."

Educate, Agitate, Organize, Mobilize, Act!


[ Parent ]
The role of the market (4.00 / 6)
To me there is a crucial distinction between those I consider to be progressive and those I consider to be liberal. It is a distinction with roots in debates between radicals and classical liberals in the 18th and 19th century, if not far before. And that distinction relates to a fundamental orientation toward the market.

For me, progressives believe that markets tend to be inefficient and unjust when they are working and therefore the reach of market ideology must be limited and the market itself subjected to social controls and priorities via political mechanisms. The market is something that is generally bad and which needs to be brought to heel with concessions sometimes a political necessity.

For me, liberals believe that markets tend to be efficient and just if they are working and not hijacked by extreme concentrations in wealth, market collusion, or de jure limits on individual opportunity.  The market is generally something that is good if allowed to function properly and is an inevitable or at least presently irresistable force.

I am firmly in the former camp and, in Lakoff's conceptualization, a socio-economic progressive but with very strong connections to others of his progressive traditions, particularly anti-authoritarianism. Specifically, anarcho-syndicalism is the most important eddy in the intellectual currents that inform my worldview.

In terms of reaching common cause with others 'on the left', the struggle for the present period is one where we have much joint struggle and must engage with market adherents among the liberal left: We both oppose media concentration, for instance, or wholly unfettered markets.

I would add, however, that the oft-heard liberal refrain that "there is no alternative" strikes me as profoundly off the mark. Misguided in terms of analyzing world history and contemporary developments - including a misreading of what the Cold War and its end entailed - as well as crippling to efforts to form broad-based left coalitions. Frankly, there are too few people willing to go to the mat to regulate the market to save it. The market is the problem.

I look forward to that day when it is meaningful to engage my liberal brothers and sisters in debates about the viability of market systems and whether reform/regulation is better than transformation.  

Did they get you to trade your heroes for ghosts? Hot ashes for trees? Hot air for a cool breeze? And cold comfort for change?


[ Parent ]
You say it is generally bad (4.00 / 1)
but are markets necessary?  What is the alternative to markets?

You suggest that liberals view markets as good. It is an interesting point - and frankly I will have to think about your point a bit. As I wrote above, I think liberals seek to understand capitalism as a system.  This system has outcomes that are not acceptable, and has features when left unregulated make it self destructive.  This requires the active intervention of the state.

Great response.


[ Parent ]
Stay Tuned Please! These Are Excellent Questions/Points Of Discussion/Whatever (4.00 / 1)
I think everything you're saying here is important (whether I agree totally or not) and needs to be addressed.  But I also think that I've got a better shot at doing justice by building more scaffolding first.  That said, I will try to write a diary next week (after Netroots Nation) that at least offers some provisional responses to some of the points you raise.

Here's one thing I would suggest in the interim, though: There's a fairly broad overlap in terms of actual policy prescriptions between "classical liberals" such as Jefferson and Paine, "New Liberals" such Green, Hobson and Hobhouse, "New Deal Liberals" and social democrats.  Some strains of "progressives" (narrowly construed) would also belong on this list.

It' my general thrust that we need to find ways to unify these different tendencies, without necessarily suppressing their differences, which ideally can work to keep each other honest.

And the same is true, I would argue, for various different strains of progressives (broadly construed, used precisely because it's less specific) in all six different areas that Lakoff describes.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Good general summary fladem. (4.00 / 2)
I use "liberal" but I am not persuaded in general that there is a meaningful difference between "liberal" and "progressive" - not that there aren't important policy and ideological differences on the left, just that there isn't critical mass agreemement as to the distinction between these terms for it to solidify.  For most people on the left I think it is a stylistic difference, or some kind of positioning thing because "progressive" is not tainted like "liberal" in the wider non-ideological public's minds.

Everyone is of course welcome to draw their own distinctions if they think it is important to do so, but for now I will continue to use the terms interchangably unless a consensus emerges as to some lasting distinctions between them.

I still like Wolfe's definition of liberal:  As many people as possible should have as much autonomy as feasible.  


[ Parent ]
If there is a point of departure (0.00 / 0)
in the US it is most likely on foreign policy.  Many self described "Progressives" would view US Foriegn Policy as imperialist, and I don't think most liberals would.  

My definition of Progrssive is very much a product of coming of age in Burlington Vermont in the early 80's.  Those self-described progressives WOULD say they werer different from liberals.  

I like Wolfe's definition.  Why, though, does he use autonomy instead of freedom.  


[ Parent ]
So is mine (4.00 / 1)
The Green Mountain state profoundly shaped my perspective about how my particular progressive political views intersect with electoral politics, policy-making, and governance, though in my case from the late 90s when I lived there. There is also a wealth of experience regarding left alternative party building in the state, both good and bad.

I also agree Fladem that perhaps the biggest flashpoint between 'liberals' and 'progressives' is found in foreign policy and more or less in the way you frame it: Is American foreign policy generally imperialist or something else and something of an exception to world power politics? But as one might expect from a 'socioeconomic progressive' that is to me just a subset of the larger questions about market capitalism. US foreign policy is at its core about extending and protecting a US-dominated global capitalist system. There really is not much room to debate that, it seems to me, only whether or not that is a good thing.

Up thread you ask 'what is the alternative'? By way of quick response I'd start with:

(1) nothing is more unrealistic or unsustainable than global capitalism and the longer the delay to transition away the rougher it will be and the worse will be the outcomes - presumption is against the status quo;

(2) much of human social experience right now - today - is not subjected, or at least not willingly and readily, to market logic. In my view, the challenge is to 'protect' those areas as much as possible from the application of market logic. These include things like family life and public goods, and market promoters are relentless in their efforts to extend the logic of the market to new profitable areas. Enclosure continues as the market reaches and consumes ever more of human social life. A litmus test of a sort is for me water: should water resources and their delivery be privatized or not? One cannot support privatization of water and be a progressive, in my judgment, under any conditions whatsoever;

(3) the possibility of alternatives and the worst consequences of the current system are most visible from outside the US political context, for the most part. Something to think about;

(4) there is The Market and there is the market. Free market advocates often perceive critics as somehow anti-trade. That is not entirely unfair in some cases in as much as many progressives (and ecologists) encourage local production and consumption over disaggregated production and consumption systems across the entire globe. But that is really just a shift in the locus of trade. But more generally, and in a highly, and perhaps uselessly, abstract way, progressives can embrace a market in which monetized trading practices are permitted but which are embedded in and subordinate to larger social structures and rituals that reflect communal values. Then there is The Market, which is the thing US and most global elites promote as the highest and best form of human organization that can ever be achieved, so don't even contemplate alternatives because there are none (that is the ideological function of the TINA refrain);

(5) the long term alternative - in my own view - is to leverage our way into social democracy and greater ecological restraint on our way over many generations to bioregional political federations as a type of libertarian socialist socio-economic configuration. But that is so far off it is usually pointless to engage in discussions about such matter, at least not until the wee hours of the morning after a lively evening.

Did they get you to trade your heroes for ghosts? Hot ashes for trees? Hot air for a cool breeze? And cold comfort for change?


[ Parent ]
freedom (4.00 / 4)
Is just the absence of constraint.  Autonomy is the presence of the necessary enabling forces for the pursuit of goals.  A prisoner kicked out of prison is "free" but lacks the means to really do anything with that freedom unless there are job training programs, half way houses, etc to assist his reintegration.

[ Parent ]
Following Lakoff (4.00 / 3)
my definition of real (as opposed to nominal) freedom is what you call autonomy.  Government actions to protect us (from systemic risk, from others, etc.)) is a necessary element of that.

Politics is the art of the possible, but that means you have to think about changing what is possible, not that you have to accept it in perpetuity.

[ Parent ]
positive and negative (4.00 / 5)
Johan Galtung, a pioneer in peace and conflict studies, has written about negative and positive peace. The former is the absence of war and the latter the existence of conditions for cooperation and collaboration (it's more complicated but that is a fair thumbnail view).

Similarly, freedom could be expressed in positive and negative forms. Negative freedom is the absence of overt coercion while positive freedom is the existence of conditions for enjoying and realizing and manifesting that freedom; an autonomous individual.

And I agree with Kaib that the "negative freedom" enjoyed in the absence of regulation can profoundly undermine the possibility of "positive freedom" leaving people free in name only. It's the Republican playbook.

Did they get you to trade your heroes for ghosts? Hot ashes for trees? Hot air for a cool breeze? And cold comfort for change?


[ Parent ]
Or MLK Jr. (4.00 / 3)
Who wrote of peace which was more than the absence of tension, but contained the presence of justice.


[ Parent ]
Fladem you started out this diary (0.00 / 0)
now it seems you are adding another dimension - ideology:
In some ways the lack of a real ideology is less of a problem in the US than elsewhere.  The key elements of the liberal agenda are the adoption of portions of the Social Democratic agenda that were never adopted here.  Socialized Medicince for example.  At bottom this is simply the pent up articulation of the social justice portions of the liberal agenda that have never been completed.

A lack of ideology here in the U.S. is a problem. If we define ideology as a set of beliefs, then people in the U.S. ought to have it. "Social justice," in my mind, is synonomous with Progressivism (idealistic liberalism, in Lakoff's terms, correct me if I'm wrong).

U.S. liberals were/have been unsuccessful in creating the conditions for a social democracy, though now with the world economy the way it is, social democracies, including Germany, are in trouble - they might have to start rolling back social programs..this could mean Marxism is yet to play out...ie, capitalism could reach it's final end!

The problem is that ideology is not inherently good. It could lead to all manner of things, such as Hitler's nazism, Mussolini's fascism, or conservative ideology -- you get my point.

Is Progressivism, as an adherence to liberal ideals, an ideology?

Does it matter if it is?


[ Parent ]
As a tactical political matter (4.00 / 2)
in some places the next steps are obvious:  socialized medicine, a better safety net.  So the absence of an ideology doesn't matter here as much as in Europe.

I think the biggest threat to liberty and social justice in the world today is globalization.  I do not believe there is an ideology available, however, that allows us to interpret this phenomenon and develop solutions for it.  A foundational belief of modern economics is comparative advantage.  The belief in this is so widespread even Krugman and Stiglitz struggle with it.  Yet it is obvious that globalization is not benefiting the majority of American Workers, and it is also clear that globalization is creating enormous deflationary pressure throughout the World.

Unfortunately, there is little in Keynes or much else on the non-marxist left that would allow us to figure out a program to deal with globalization.  We suggest policies at the margin, but there is no vision of how the state can defend the gains of the last 70 years.  Indeed, one sees the forces of austerity gaining everywhere.

Marxism failed, and in any event Marx wrote about a world long gone.  Liberal/Keynsian economics can help with cyclical problems, but is incapable of addressing the global imbalances we see everywhere.

We need an ideological perspective equal to the complexity of the times.  Ideology is important - I very much agree with you.  The problem - not to be underestimated - is in articulating one that is relevent.

Your last question is revealing.  In my previous post I said that one definition of Progressive was as a term describing a coalition of ideologies.  In this sense it is intentionally vaugue, and isn't an ideology.  


[ Parent ]
Gobalization (4.00 / 1)
I don't think globalization is a problem, per se.  The issue is the world is about to give birth to a new... something.  What that something is has a chance to be locked in for quite a long time.  The previously employed civilization saving technique of always having some isolated island of progress won't work this time.  The world is converging into something and the time when changes are relatively easy to make is right now.

And no, it isn't going so well.


[ Parent ]
Globalization vs. Globalization (0.00 / 0)
Globalization in the sense of a more integrated world is almost certainly something new being born that could be very good (if not destroyed by global warming).

But corporate globalization--the implicit being made explicit here--as we know it is very much a problem as fladem correctly underscores.

Illustrating the difference here:

Why is it so easy to free capital to cross all the borders in the world, and promote this as a good thing?  And yet to see labor crossing borders as the most dire threat?  And why is there so very little talk, in the US, for example, of how NAFTA enabled the massive exporting of subsidized corn production to wipe out vast swaths of the rural Mexican economy, thus vastly increasing the flow of undocumented Mexican labor into the US?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I forgot to say (0.00 / 0)
thanks for all the fish. </meow>

42! (0.00 / 0)
Dude!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
I.M.Limping (4.00 / 1)
Not at my own computer, not at my preferred browser, not with my preferred keyboard or mouse!  Who moved my cheese?!?! [Insert high pitched whine here.]

Dani Rodrik is an economist for whom I have some respect and a certain degree of affection.  He has a couple of pieces that may resonate for folks in these threads...

Deep down, the crisis (in Greece) is yet another manifestation of what I call "the political trilemma of the world economy": economic globalization, political democracy, and the nation-state are mutually irreconcilable. We can have at most two at one time. Democracy is compatible with national sovereignty only if we restrict globalization. If we push for globalization while retaining the nation-state, we must jettison democracy. And if we want democracy along with globalization, we must shove the nation-state aside and strive for greater international governance.  Greek Lessons for the World Economy; Project Syndicate

Industrial policy is back.

In fact, industrial policy never went out of fashion. Economists enamored of the neo-liberal Washington Consensus may have written it off, but successful economies have always relied on government policies that promote growth by accelerating structural transformation.
[...]
But when it comes to industrial policy, it is the United States that takes the cake. This is ironic, because the term "industrial policy" is anathema in American political discourse.  It is used almost exclusively to browbeat political opponents with accusations of Stalinist economic designs.
[...]
The real question about industrial policy is not whether it should be practiced, but how. The Return of Industrial Policy; Project Syndicate



I think Rodrik's (0.00 / 0)
observations are interesting.  I would add that many seem oblivious to the coming world in which by the far the most dominant economic power on the globe will also have a  totalitarian political system (China).  

[ Parent ]
Balance (4.00 / 2)
A fascinating diary and set of comments.  Your conclusion section, including the soberingly spot-on excerpt from Kevin Baker and your "It's not just that another world is possible.  It's also that this one is not," really helped clarify and harmonize my thinking in relation to your own.

A theme that struck me several times as I read the discussion was of "balance."  

As I see it, there's some amount of coexistence between central/idealistic and pragmatic progressivism within most individuals.  And, I'd argue that: a) there's a range of "healthy" balance between the two and; b) that, as you seem to suggest, the practical implications and significance of that balance (and its shifts over time) are tied in large part to real-world conditions (e.g., post-War dominance of the New Deal coalition vs. rise of the New Right and its policies).

I also relate to the concept of healthy balance in terms of economic policy.  As you and others suggest, there are differences between industries/sectors (e.g., level of fixed vs. variable costs; barriers to entry that are inherent or strongly influenced by policy; positive and negative externalities, etc.) that have large impacts on whether market dynamics can reliably serve the public interest, are fundamentally at odds with it, or can serve it under appropriate regulatory systems.   Similarly, the role and desirability of government's direct involvement in the economy varies by sector and also the type and functionality of government systems.

Personally, I've always been attracted to cooperative forms of enterprise, including both worker-owned and customer-owned co-ops.  In many cases they combine the benefits of market responsiveness with democratic principles (e.g., one vote per worker or customer).  And, though I don't have any proof of this, my sense is that the co-op structure is also relatively friendly to a healthy balancing of localism and globalism.

I also wanted to second Paul's suggestion (presumably to be followed-up in later diaries) that dignitarianism is a key concept/value that can help unify various flavors of liberal/progressive perspectives.

In this context, I'd also suggest that the themes laid out in Marjorie Kelly's "The Divine Right of Capital" are especially timely in the wake of the financial crisis and its aftermath, and speak to the points I'm trying to make about balance, cooperative enterprises and the notion that dignitarianism is a core value that units progressives of all stripes and areas of focus.

To close, I'll repeat a part of the Kevin Baker article Paul excerpted, because it cuts to the heart of a key distinction from an important perspective that's becoming increasingly clear to me:

Every instinct the president has honed, every voice he hears in Washington, every inclination of our political culture urges incrementalism, urges deliberation, if any significant change is to be brought about. The trouble is that we are at one of those rare moments in history when the radical becomes pragmatic, when deliberation and compromise foster disaster. The question is not what can be done but what must be done....


A rally point, if that is what you're looking for, imho, would be Obama staking (0.00 / 0)
out a position that is left of center and/or benefits working people/the middle class/the vast majority of voters.

Simple, yet strenuous advocacy for those types of positions, and meaning it (e.g. backing it up with actions such as in early, often, and vocal support of Elizabeth Warren), would reconstitute the Right or Wrong (RoW) crowd and the progressives into an aligned movement.

Clearly the RoWers will follow whatever Obama does, but progressives/activists/the base need a bone or 20 (at this point) to re-energize.


Form a separate party (4.00 / 1)
Form a separate party, with a dues paying membership, as they do in the UK and Ireland. Progressive Democrats by name. The subsequent right wing attacks, hysteria will get the party lots off free publicity, even appearances on Fox News. Of course a Fox invite could be refused based on the non-journalistic nature of Fox News.

Elect party leaders, draft a simple set of Guiding Principles. Each leader would publish his/her views on a critical issue.

Form a Young Progressives organization with its own dues and leadership.

Make things simple, imitate the organization of the web page of Fine Gael, for instance, the opposition party in Ireland. Or the Lib Dems in the UK. Or hire the founder of Craig's List to create the web page.

Run candidates in 10-20 likely districts. Endorse 6-10 of the most compatible Democratic Senators, with brief statements about why they have earned the endorsement, however imperfect their record may be.


Fair Deal Party? (0.00 / 0)
All the progressive types you outline want, from politics, a fair deal from government and business.

So why not a new Fair Deal party? This name combines Square Deal and New Deal into a name that immediately projects what the New Deal and the Square Deal were all about.

By the way an alternative to "social democracy" is "social capitalism." More accurate because it combines a political term (social) with an economic term (capitalism).

All social democracies have capitalist economies. They do not have socialist economies.


USER MENU

Open Left Campaigns

SEARCH

   

Advanced Search

QUICK HITS
STATE BLOGS
Powered by: SoapBlox