This is not a smackdown

by: Paul Rosenberg

Thu Dec 09, 2010 at 10:30


It's therapy. Okay, maybe a little of both.  Fritz Perls, not Carl Rogers.

In "DeLong Smackdown Watch: Paul Rosenberg Sings Talking Heads' "Once in a Lifetime" Department", Brad DeLong takes note of my two recent diaries, "Same as it never was: Economics as if the 20th Century never happened" and "A World Upside Down?"--a field biology approach to economic chaos". His quotation of the first diary ends with this:

Originally, I was going to offer some critique of DeLong's blind spots.  But... another paper has been published which does a remarkable job of making sense of what ultimately befuddles DeLong.  It's not centered on Obama's circle, but it encompasses that circle as it illuminates a much broader shift in the dynamics of economic hegemony.  I'll discuss that paper, "A World Upside Down? Deficit Fantasies in the Great Recession" by Thomas Ferguson and Robert Johnson, in a diary later today or tomorrow.

and he says that the latter diary fails to deliver, arguing:

Finance is a very powerful interest group, and finance is interested in deregulation. But finance is not interested in austerity.

Back before World War I finance was interested in austerity: their assets were primarily nominal debt, and relatively safe nominal debt as well. They wanted hard money. They did not care much about capacity utilization or employment. But nowadays finance's portfolios are as diversified as anybody's, and financiers lose as much from slack capacity and low demand as anybody.

So right now we have Austerians--our Pointless Pain Caucus--without there being any politically-powerful investor group that benefits from austerity.

I clearly wasn't clear enough in making my argument.  But I also think Brad knows better himself.  In one context, he surely knows that finance has become decoupled from the underlying economy.  But in this context he seems to forget.  The argument is not that financiers or investors want austerity out of any particular rational motive.  It's that they can make money either way, which allows for what might otherwise be trivial or irrelevant factors or motives to sway them.  Or possibly even no factors or motives at all, merely the force of habit.  That's what the oligopoly argument is all about.

I clearly wasn't clear enough in making my argument.  But I also think Brad knows better himself.  In one context, he surely knows that finance has become decoupled from the underlying economy.  But in this context he seems to forget.  The argument is not that financiers or investors want austerity out of any particular rational motive.  It's that they can make money either way, which allows for what might otherwise be trivial or irrelevant factors or motives to sway them.  Or possibly even no factors or motives at all, merely the force of habit.

That's what the oligopoly argument is all about--a decoupling of in-group interests from out-group interests along with the intensification of in-group power.  Furthermore, the decoupling of interests is not just a static, one-time thing, or a matter of disposition.  It's driven by autocatalytic processess reflecting what our friends at the Situationist blog would no doubt call, "the situation of oligopoly," and as they've repeatedly argued, situationist factors routinely trump dispositionist ones.

As I said, in one context, DeLong surely understands this.  He's no believer in rational expectations trumping irrational exuberance. He knows that derivative markets can become radically disconnected from the underlying commodities.  He must surely know, for example, that there's a great deal of money to be made from green technology, but that there's relatively scant financial market motivation to chase after that money when you can make so much more just churning derivatives all day long.  But somehow, this knowledge has become compartamentalized for him.  It's not the sort of causation he's looking for, and so he just doesn't see it.

What he's looking for is something that fits into the schema he described in his recent Project Syndicate commentary, "The Retreat of Macroeconomic Policy", where he wrote:

One disturbing thing about studying economic history is how things that happen in the present change the past - or at least our understanding of the past. For decades, I have confidently taught my students about the rise of governments that take on responsibility for the state of the economy. But the political reaction to the Great Recession has changed the way we should think about this issue.

Governments before World War I - and even more so before WWII - did not embrace the mission of minimizing unemployment during economic downturns. There were three reasons, all of which vanished by the end of WWII.

First, there was a hard-money lobby: a substantial number of rich, socially influential, and politically powerful people whose investments were overwhelmingly in bonds. They had little personally at stake in high capacity utilization and low unemployment, but a great deal at stake in stable prices. They wanted hard money above everything.

Second, the working classes that were hardest-hit by high unemployment generally did not have the vote. Where they did, they and their representatives had no good way to think about how they could benefit from stimulative government policies to moderate economic downturns, and no way to reach the levers of power in any event.

Third, knowledge about the economy was in its adolescence. Knowledge of how different government policies could affect the overall level of spending was closely held. With the exception of the United States' free-silver movement, it was not the subject of general political and public intellectual discussion.

All three of these factors vanished between the world wars. At least, that is what I said when I lectured on economic history back in 2007. Today, we have next to no hard-money lobby, almost all investors have substantially diversified portfolios, and nearly everybody suffers mightily when unemployment is high and capacity utilization and spending are low.

With these factors gone, we should just be fixing things.  It's a no-brainer.  And yet we are not.  That's DeLong's dilemma.  And the answer just doesn't look like one expects it too. It's a telepathic Ganymedean slime mold, not a proper multi-celular bipedal chordate like you'd expect.  A field exo-biologist wouldn't have a problem recognizing this, but most of us certainly would.

Still, DeLong is closer to getting there than he realizes.  When he gets around to talking about "Nietzschean Ressentiment" as a potential causal explantion, he's put his finger on a key ingredient--a micro-psychological factor that just doesn't care who's "better off", so long as someone else is worse off.  The problem is, this is only one piece of the puzzle.  But it's the right sort of piece and it's the right puzzle.  The power of oligopoly that Ferguson and Johnson describe is a more macro-level view of what the puzzle's picture is.  The oligopolists aren't the ones feeding on  ressentiment, but they sure make a lot of money off of it.  And it's fairly likely that Akerloff's work on identity economics could even help to make some degree of sense of all this in the sort of language that DeLong understands very well.

This is not a full-blown course of therapy, I admit.  It's barely a beginning.  But I hope there's enough here to indicate that it is a beginning.  And not just a failed smackdown.

Paul Rosenberg :: This is not a smackdown

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Ask, and ye shall be given (0.00 / 0)
Wow! That was quick. I ask if you'll be responding, hit refresh, and there it is. Now to go read it....

Disconnect much? (4.00 / 2)

Ames and Levine tagged this video: "Russian TV reports on the oligarchy takeover of America...you know we're screwed when we need Russian TV to tell us the bitter truth..."

The MSM has tagged Independents the party of swing-voting 'centrism.' If Democrats no longer represent your liberal values, show America there is still a Left by registering for another left-aligned party.


Yup! (0.00 / 0)
And one side of Brad's brain knows this perfectly well.  Far better than most, in fact.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
A commenter's gratitude (4.00 / 5)
Now that I've read to the end of the beginning, ;-) I can only repeat the same observations with respect to DeLong's rhetorical despair that I made in my comments on your earlier diaries.

This isn't at all about rationality in the Eighteenth Century sense, although all of us, Brad DeLong included, would like it to be. That's the irony of our discussions. Jefferson thought that the people would come around once the underbrush blocking their path was cut away. Hamilton doubted it. A couple of centuries and more later, the evidence is in. You can lead a horse to water, etc., etc. Human nature is far more resilient, in both its good and evil aspects, than mere rational persuasion admits.

DeLong should be talking about a whole host of topics -- all, or nearly all tribal -- if he wants clarity about the craziness of modern economic governance. Southern irredentism, religious fundamentalism, the desire of the Koch brothers to keep their hoard and their privilege from being diluted, and their ignorance of the reasons why both are morally indefensible on the one hand, and economically counter-productive on the other -- these are just a few of the lineaments of gratified desire driving the loonies who are ignoring his good sense. As you say, he knows this, but for one reason or another, he isn't prepared to talk about it.

Thank God -- and everyone from Kierkegaard to John Dewey and the Buddha -- you are. (And thank you, too, of course.)


This is key... (4.00 / 2)
It's that they can make money either way...

I'd have presented it as, They'll generate a return on investment either way..., because as anyone who's has had to suck up 70 credits in this discipline has been endlessly reminded, only the Fed can "make" (print) money.  The rest of us have to "earn" it.  [I'll leave aside the layers and layers of irony the advent of some specific innovative financial instruments "generated" in that regard.]

As to DeLong's other point:

...financiers lose as much from slack capacity and low demand as anybody.

I'd ask whose slack capacity and whose demand is DeLong referring to?  And, if this slack is is problematic then DeLong needs to explain why it is that the banks and major corporations are hoarding cash.


Well, (4.00 / 1)
I think his point is that everyone would make more money if everyone made more money.  And while that's true in the abstract, Keynes already showed why that didn't just happen in one sense back in the 30s, so this is not anything existentially new.

And, frankly, I'll stick with my vernacular use of "make money", particularly since those who make money off of trading derivatives aren't investing.  They are either trading (making commissions) or speculating (making bets) or doing both.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
This is an important point: finance isn't investment. (4.00 / 3)
Investment means putting down money (or credit) and making something for trade. Investment then creates jobs, builds infrastructure and creates trade.

Finance is the art of money making money on money. Derivatives being one extreme example.

DeLong is thusly a tad confused when he writes a sentence like this:

...almost all investors have substantially diversified portfolios, and nearly everybody suffers mightily when unemployment is high and capacity utilization and spending are low.

Given the fact of global capital, this is true if we're referring to Asia now. If we're referring to the US, this simply isn't the case for the Really Big Money, because they aren't investing in the US, they're investing where labor is ultra cheap and capital controls are non-existent. So when US util cap is low, no one really cares, because Big Capital isn't invested in it anymore. But when this happens in China, they'll all be screaming bloody murder about their factories lying idle.

But even that is besides the point with banks, as they are in the finance business, not investment. They have their computers trading billions of shares of stocks for seconds at a time. They sit on US Treasuries just for the interest. They sell bogus financial products to suckers that perform no economic function at all.

And they account for 40% of US corporate profits. Most of the other 60% is accounted for with Asian labor.

They don't care about unemployment because they're divorced from it. It doesn't affect them. Poverty, homelessness and starvation are all fine, as long as they can game the markets. This is why they have a distinct historical relationship with mass poverty in this country. They run up commodities to the point where people are going hungry, but they're still making money on the trades.

The top 1%, which we can simultaneously refer to as the Investor Class and the Ruling Class, own 83% of the stock market. That market is rigged for their benefit. That paper supports economic activity outside the US, for the most part.

So in other words, there is no interest in the economic future of this country at the top of the slag heap. Their profits are being created elsewhere. No small wonder then, why they aren't willing to do anything to turn this economy around. That's so 20th Century!

"More than any other time in history, mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness. The other, to total extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly." -Woody Allen, My Speech to the Graduates


[ Parent ]
therapy is good, but i think this might be more effective :D (0.00 / 0)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/educ...


3.29pm: It's probably high time we had a recap:
• As MPs debate higher tuition fees in the Commons tens of thousands of students and others have marched through central London towards Parliament Square.
• The vast bulk of the protest has been peaceful and good-natured, those on the ground say.
• However, there have been some isolated skirmishes, mainly protesters using barriers to try and force back police lines. Some placards and flares have been thrown.
• Scotland Yard says that so far there has been just one arrest (for drunk and disorderly) and no reported injuries, though both could change.
• Police have seemingly not been able to contain marchers as they had hoped. A large nunber have spilled onto the green of Parliament Square, painting a giant "No" in red paint.
• Some officers have donned riot gear and police horses are in place.
• There has been a smaller march in Newcastle and later today students in Edinburgh will hold a rally at the Scottish parliament.

:D


It Takes A Village Or A Drug Coctail, Your Pick (4.00 / 1)
No Bonus March, no CIO, no Communist Party, no Flint Sit-in, and Keynes very likely wouldn't have gotten even the half-assed hearing he received here via Samuelson & others. So you've certainly got a point.  But that's not to say Keynes himself was irrelevant.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
not irrelevant at all (4.00 / 1)
but we have a lot of them.  e.g. krugman is one.  however, no one listens to them.  so the bigger gap today is not lack of ideas, which i think could have been reasonably suggested even three years ago.  no, the gap is lack of social power to force someone to at least consider them.  so my two cents is: one thing that could be helpful as a starting point is to explain cogently why this gap exists and what can be done about it, if there is anything at all.  why do the people, or segments therein like students or whoever else, not rise up (more quickly) as they are elsewhere?

[ Parent ]
Multiple Issues Here (4.00 / 1)
But one factor is that students did rise up... two years ago to volunteer for Obama.  And it's just now sinking in that they were had.

America has always been much more of a personality-cult style culture, so there's not all that much new in this.  Still, it remains disheartening.  But we've got to deal with it anyway.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
students rise up all the time (0.00 / 0)
but, on a national scale, it got channeled into electing a neoliberal center right president.  and they got suckered, like the rest of us.

so perhaps those of us who don't like that could encourage them and as relevantly ourselves to do other things now, given that comparatively little energy goes into those that.  there are great programs like union summer and whatnot, but at the end of the day, nothing radicalizes like confronting power and seeing it for what it is.

-former student activist


[ Parent ]
A physical demonstration of protest (4.00 / 1)
- crowds in front of the White House with signs (no flares thrown...that would bring down god knows what, a swat team) would certainly help our side in this tax cut debate.

Here in the U.S. we've mobilized to put on a tv ad. And there are online petitions and phone calling to members of Congress and the President. It's always been hard to believe that these things have any effect, but I think they do...things would be way much worse, if one can imagine it, without at least some presence of opposition.

An important point though - The British House is raising college tuition...the protesters, who are students, are directly affected by this. Hence, the protest. Plus the students - the affected constituency - are young and have the energy for protest. I think the protest - which came about rather spontaneously, yes? - was a direct result of the issue.  

Protests happen all the time in Washington. They have to be organized, though, in advance, so people can travel to the nation's capital. The majority of D.C. locals are not inclined to protest against the federal gov't -- they're either too poor, too rich, or the government is their employer.

Example: I just checked the internet. Repeal of Don't Ask Don't Tell supporters have organized a protest for tomorrow....Congress nixed it TODAY. Probably the issue will be back again, but still, Congress' action today takes away from the impact of the planned protest.

It's a sticky business.


[ Parent ]
- (4.00 / 1)
These protests in the UK were organized, nationally, locally, at schools, in other places (this was the third of three major ones in the last month).  There were institutions like labor unions like the University and College Lecturers Union and others as well as the National Union of Students which have been involved.

But in that context, there has also been a lot of 'spontaneous' (i.e. personal, locally or informally organized) action.   Spontaneous just means it wasn't recorded in the media.  There has also been genuinely 'spontaneous' action, some of which served a useful purpose (e.g. recording police brutality) and some of which might end up being counterproductive or might not (e.g. attacking prince charles's car).

So the issue is not whether there is a protest or not, or whether it is organized or not, but whether it genuinely challenges the interests of people in power.  And you will see this very easily, in their reactions (e.g. see government reaction to wikileaks).

I agree with you about the point of people being involved who are directly impacted, but my question is really about whether people who are relatively powerful (including the leadership of non-profits, etc.) are interested in organizing protests that actually challenge people in power or are chanelling our energy into something that will not be useful.  

for example, I spent a lot of time observing the 2006 immigration protests and the speed with which protests of millions of people were channeled into a minimal agenda was remarkable.  Think about that for a second.  There were millions of people protsting in the streets of major u.s. cities four years ago.  but we ignore that.

You can make a strong argument that channeling that energy in to a defensive posture to support a bad bill was the correct strategy at the time from a narrow perspective, but the idea of building social infrastructure and organizing for its own sake seems lost.  

but that these topics are not really the subject of conversation is a huge issue.  we can talk all we want about the ideas that are involved but ultimately, the people in power need to be challeneged before they will even consider ideas that are in their own best interests, let alone ours!  And not performance, but ...genuine, scary, they might hit back... challenge.

Because they will!  so we need to stop relying on them.


[ Parent ]
Interesting analysis. (4.00 / 2)
I agree with your description of the decoupling of in-group power from out-group interests. That seems to be another example of Robert Michels' "Iron Law of Oligarchy." He points out that over time the leaders of every large organization inevitably choose to use every tool and resource they control to maintain their own position of power, even when staying in power defeats the purpose of the organization they lead. (Michels was a syndicalist describing how the leaders of anarchist organizations ultimately worked to maintain their own power.)

When I was trying to understand research into corporate strategy it was pointed out to me that financial decisions are based on written and analyzed numbers, while power decisions are based on subjective analysis of who has power and who does not and what they do with it. In finance the out-groups depend primarily on written financial documents, while the in-groups use their intimate knowledge of who has power and who does not in addition to the written data. That gives a major advantage to the leaders of oligopoly organizations. Since those leaders also have the motivation to maintain their own power even when that action damages their organization and prevents it from accomplishing its mission, it should not surprise anyone that financial in-groups would act contrary to the good interests of the out-groups.

I am unaware of any exception to "The Iron Law of Oligarchy." Michels published that a century ago.

It is the behavior of the leaders that matters. They will happily sacrifice any number of their subordinates in order to maintain their position of power. So the fact that financiers today also depend on the rate of employment and capacity utilization is a great deal less important than whether the guys at the top maintain their personal power.  


Yes, Thanks. (4.00 / 1)
And I really wish I HAD read Michaels a long time ago. I had first-hand experience of the phenomena he wrote about re anarchist leaders when I was invovled with Indymedia a decade ago.  Some of the most ruthless, amoral oligarchic leaders you could ever imagine.  Had no desire whatsoever to see Indymedia grow if it meant giving up an iota of their power over such a tiny domain.

Worst of all, of course, they were utterly convinced that everyone else was as conniving as they were.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Deflation (0.00 / 0)
While I'm not denying these complex psychological factors, the financial industry does have an interest in austerity because it decreases inflation, possibly rendering it negative. As the major creditors in an economy of debtors, the banks benefit from this. They are not capitalists in the sense of people directly invested in production, nor are they simply rich people; they are people owed vast amounts of nominal wealth that want to maximize the real value of that wealth. Austerity is the means; low inflation or deflation the end.

yeah i agree (0.00 / 0)
other people I have come across who knows where have discussed it in terms i find appealing - 1994-2007 is the massive expansion of their power and wealthy, where they were grabbing more and more.  Since then it has been the consolidation of their power (including instittuionalization, deflation, etc.).

Think of it through this metaphor, which is much gentler than the truth:

1. Person A starts with $60 and Person B starts with $40.  So the breakdown is 60% of the total and 40% of the total.

2. Person A invents a printing press and makes $1000 and gives it to themselves.  Person A now has $1060 and Person B has $40.  But now the breakdown is that Person A has 96% of the money, and Person B only has 4%.  

3. Then Person A says the printing press is broken due to overuse and Person B believes them.  And all of a sudden, we're now stuck in this situation with Person A having 96% of the money and Person B having 4%, going forward.  

And Person A says - "well, we should really just make sure we never print any money again, because that was a really bad idea.  Let's just go with this situation.  Also, we owe the repairman $10, so can we split that 50:50?"

Because Person A knows that they have 96% of the money which is a lot more than before, that they still have a functioning printing press, that costs have or will go up, and that, most crucially, Person B is not asking whether or not they're telling the truth.

But Person A doesn't know that their well being ultimately depends on Person B, and Person B doesn't know that they don't really need Person A.


[ Parent ]
The Lord wants a new horse stable (4.00 / 1)
The peasants food needs to be taxed to pay for it.

I think the answer is pretty much as simple as that. Multiply for effect.

All the lords (of Wall Street) want the prettiest (stable/Delorean/80ft cruise ship parked in the Med).   To afford this more money must be made from the peasants.  The shortest way to that money is that wages vice operating costs must be decreased. TaaaDAAA -> http://www.calculatedriskblog....


I forgot to add (0.00 / 0)
these are not rocket scientists or even thinkers,  they may have a degree in finance or MBA, but really that was probably bought and paid for.  They don't expect to think much today.

[ Parent ]
I like that parable (0.00 / 0)


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