Obama-Yearning For Dixiecrats?

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sun Dec 23, 2007 at 12:55


In yearning for a return of the civility of yesteryear, is Barack Obama actually yearning for the return of the Dixiecrats, who sought to keep blacks legally segregated in South in a condition of second-class citizenship?  In a word-yes.  Of course it's not a conscious intention on his part.  But the presence of a significant block of Southern Democrats in Congress was an important factor in producing a defacto three-party system that muted overall polarization to historic lows for a period of decades from the 1930s to the 1970s.

It was not the only factor, of course.  Nor is polarization synonymous with incivility.  There was a dramatic jump in incivility in the House when Newt Gingrich took over the Republican leadership, and Republicans simultaneously took over the House in 1994.  But the rising polarization is what set the stage for Newt's emergence, and the continuing polarization has only grown more intense.  All this was explained in a book published in 2006, Polarized America: The Dance of Ideology and Unequal Riches, by political scientists Nolan McCarty, Keith T. Poole, and Howard Rosenthal, which is based on the most complete record of Congressional voting in existence-a complete record of Congressional roll-call votes where the minority vote was at least 0.5% of the House or Senate. 

In the big picture, polarization in Congress correlates dramatically with levels of income inequality, which is also correlated with levels of foreign born residents.  But the Southern Democrats are part of the mix, and as they disappeared, and were replaced by Southern Republicans, the remaining Democrats were more liberal as a group while the new Republicans helped move their party significantly to the right.

What this strongly suggests is what I and many others have argued on various other grounds-that FDRs success-which correlated with a dramatic drop in polarization-shows that left-liberal policies that benefit society as a whole are the best way to bring the nation together, no matter how vehemently conservatives may oppose them.  Of course conservative opposition will be fierce at first, but as the policies take hold, and begin to work, support for extreme conservatives will wane, and that is how polarization will decline and civility will be restored.

Charts galore on the flip...

Paul Rosenberg :: Obama-Yearning For Dixiecrats?
I'll begin by presenting a series of charts, with only a modicum of explanatory commentary.  Then I'll proceed to discussion.

Polarization: The Fall And Rise In Both Houses

The first thing to establish is the long-term contour of polarization, and that it is remarkably similar in both houses. The long-term contour-falling dramatically during the Great Depression/New Deal period of liberal policy dominance, and remaining low throughout the New Deal political era, tells us that liberal dominance, far from causing polarization, coincided with its dramatic reduction.  As liberalism waned, polarization re-emerged.  Now, corelation does not prove causation.  But it does suggest it, and more proof will be forthcoming below.  The similarity in both houses tells us that gerrymanering, for example, is not a major factor.  That doesn't mean it's not important on other grounds, but it is not a driving factor in polarizing Congress.  It also tells us that we can generally rely on data from one house of Congress to stand in for the other.

    Polarization And Income

    Reinforcing what we already know from the general contours of American political history, these two charts, using different measures, clearly show the tight relationship between polarization and income mentioned above:  as the Great Depression and liberal policymaking sustained relative income equality, polarization stayed low; as liberalism waned, income inequality grew.

        Polarization And The Foreign Born

        The percentage of foreign born also correlates surprisingly well.  As the authors argue, this makes sense in a politically saliennt way: a large chunk of the foreign born are not citizens and have lower incomes.  They increase income inequality, but lack the political power to vote for policies that would tend to counter the rise of inequality.  Thus, their increased presence erodes the self-correcting mechanisms that would tend to keep inequality from growing too extreme.

          Polarization Broken Down: The Liberal/Conservative Economic Dimension

          Polarization has two main dimensions.  The main dimension is liberal/conservative on economics and government activism.  We show that first, for each house, broken down by the Democrats' North/South division.

            Note how Northern Democrats (damn libruls!) have barely changed since the midst of WWII?  It's the relatively conservative Southern Democrats who have become relatively more liberal since the early 1970s (responding to an increased black voter base?) and the Republicans who have grown more conservatives, starting a few years later.  There's simply no way to blame Nancy Pelosi, David Obey, Jan Schakowsky, Henry Waxman and Barney Frank for polarizing the House. Their block of Northern Democrats are pretty much were they were when the Battle of Midway was won.  Three things have changed to increase polarization: Southern Democrats have grown more liberal. Southern Democrats have grown more scarce. And Republicans have grown more conservative.  Liberal Northern Democrats had nothing to do with any of that.  Except, of course, that they ended segregation, which set in motion the decline of the de facto three party system, which will be discussed below.

              In the Senate, Northern Democrats have grown steadily more liberal since the early 1980s.  But the trend, though steady, is relatively modest compared to the Republicans and the Southern Democrats, especially if one looks back a few more decades.  Northern Democrats are not substantially different than they were back in the late 1950s/early 1960s.  Not so the rest.

              Polarization Broken Down: The Civil Rights Dimension

              The Civil Rights dimension is a less significant determinant, and has effectively disappeared in recent years, as racial issues have increasingly become questions of distributive justice, subsumed under the first dimension.  The Civil Rights dimension-which is actually a bit more ambiguous since it also picks up the Populists' bimetalism in the late 19th Century-emerged as highly significant before the Civil War, then disappeared as a source of polarization, only to re-emerge again during the period covered by these charts.  Though some polarization still exists, the degree of polarization is not the same as the amount that this polarization contributes to polarization overall, which is not shown on these charts.  The latter his virtually disappeared entirely.

                  Analysis

                  Explaning what all this means, Nolan McCarty was interviewed by The American Prospect in July 2006, just after the book came out:

                  What's happened in the past 25 to 40 years or so is that as economic inequality has increased, there's been a polarization of the parties on economic issues -- mostly due to the Republicans moving to the right. In the '70s and the '80s there was a rapid increase in incomes at the top without the commensurate increase of incomes at the bottom. And economic policies that Republicans had promoted and lost elections on in the '60s they began to win elections on in the '70s and '80s with the support of this new wealthier vote. So, there's a direct relationship between the polarization of the parties on economic issues and the increased economic inequality that took place, primarily because these new, wealthier voters gave an impetus to a set of policy priorities -- lower taxes, a more libertarian set of economic prescriptions -- that reinforced inequality.

                  The question is, why hasn't this increased economic inequality produced more redistribution?

                  Typically economists, political economists, and political scientists think that economic inequality is self-correcting: If inequality increases there will be a mobilization of lower-income voters in a push toward greater redistribution of wealth to offset that inequality. Here's where immigration is a big part of the story, though, because at the same time as economic inequality in America was increasing, immigration was increasing, too. There were increasing numbers of low-wage workers, but an increasing proportion of those were immigrants who were not yet naturalized and therefore not able to vote for redistributionist policies. And so there's a reinforcing effect from the composition of the work force being more immigrant and less citizen, because these low-income workers can't vote.

                  But, I already said that, didn't I?  Well, now you know I wasn't just putting words in their mouths.  That's really what the authors say.

                  And what about the religious right?

                  [TAP:] The current administration puts a lot of polarizing cultural issues out into the national debate. Are these just red herrings that distract from more salient economic issues?

                  [McCarty:] I don't buy into the Thomas Frank view that these cultural issues are red herrings, fake populism by economic royalists of the Republican Party. Lower-income religious Americans are only slightly more Republican than lower-income Americans in general. What's very dramatic is that we find a coalitional structure that's emerged in which the base of the Republican Party isn't religious conservatives or economic conservatives, but religious high-income voters who have no conflict between voting their values and voting their pocketbook. Of course, if you look at what Republicans have done in office, they really have pushed on the economic issues -- the tax cuts, the privatization of social security, the deregulatory agenda and so on -- more than the cultural issues. And while some have interpreted this to mean that the Republicans aren't serious about conservative religious issues, I just think it's more that they have this coalition of high-income Americans. The religious issues are important to certain parts of this coalition, but it's not the dominant part. They just don't find the same value in pushing morals that they find in pushing economics.

                  Where did the polarization come from?  Here's what McCarty says:

                  Polarization started to increase right after the Great Society. There had been a real consensus on economic and social policy: that Keynesian macroeconomics and the welfare state social policies were the way to go. The breakdown of this consensus caused by the economic changes in the 1970s created today's increased political polarization. Keynesian economics unraveled, and so the consensus about the government's role in the macro-economy changed; the urban crisis of the 1970s undermined faith in New Deal/Great Society-type liberalism.

                  At the same time there was a real skills premium in the economy so the value of education started to rise relative to unskilled labor, and thus you had an increase in economic inequality. The beneficiaries of this change, both because they had been perhaps disillusioned with the previous policy consensus, but also because they were doing quite well under the new consensus, began to support Reaganomics and other conservative economic policies.

                  The polarization we see today is the Democratic Party supporting the remnants of the old consensus and the Republicans representing this alternative libertarian, small-government consensus. Other issues started getting drawn into this split, creating the polarization we see on non-economic issues. Although we argue that for the most part the polarization on social issues has been overstated, you can't deny that there are other religious and cultural issues coming out of the 1970s -- Roe v. Wade and so forth -- that have reinforced these divisions.

                  Bear in mind, this comes from a rather conventional political scientist.  None of these guys is a wild-eyed radical, or even a progressive activist.  They just deal with what the American political system puts on their plate.  There is no consideration of comparing the American welfare state and its effectiveness with other, much more effective examples, which could, potentially, have prevented the impacts of the 1970s from being as severe as they were.  So I am hardly presenting their argument as the end of all possible discussion.  Rather, it is a sound, moderate starting point, based on virtually all the data available from congressional voting.

                  This caveat is important to keep in mind, as we turn to an article by another co-author, "The Decline and Rise of Party Polarization in Congress During the Twentieth Century" [PDF] by Keith T. Poole.  His analysis is fine, as far as it goes, but I am not suggesting that it is the last word.  First, a couple of passages from the main body of the paper:

                  The political party system of the 1940s and 1950s emerged during the latter part of the New Deal when, in the wake of the 1936 elections, northern Democrats heavily outnumbered southern Democrats in Congress. Many of the programs initiated during the subsequent Second New Deal were not to the liking of the South. Voting on minimum wages in 1937 and 1938, followed by voting during World War II on the poll tax and voting rights in the armed forces, helped to split the Democratic Party into two distinct regional wings. Voting in Congress became two dimensional in order to differentiate northerners from southerners on civil rights and related votes.

                  With the passage of the 1964 Civil Rights Act, the 1965 Voting Rights Act, and the 1967 Open Housing Act, this second dimension slowly declined in importance and is now almost totally absent. Race related issues - affirmative action, welfare, Medicaid, subsidized housing, etc. - are now questions of redistribution. Voting on race-related issues now largely takes place along the liberal-conservative dimension and the old split in the Democratic Party between North and South has largely disappeared. Voting in Congress is now almost purely one-dimensional - a single dimension accounts for about 93 percent of roll call voting choices in the 108th House and Senate - and the two parties are increasingly polarized....

                  The rapid decline in the importance of the second dimension reflects the realignment of the South towards the Republican Party. During the past 30 years Republicans have moved steadily to the right on the liberal-conservative dimension with conservatives replacing more moderate Republicans outside the southern states and conservatives replacing moderate and conservative Democrats in the South. The effect has been a rightward movement on the liberalconservative dimension of the Republican Party as a whole. As a result, the number of southern Democrats declined and as a group they became much more liberal.

                  And now, the conclusion, which makes it quite clear how important the Dixiecrats were to the "moderation" of the earlier era in which Barack Obama could not even have gone to an integrated school while he was growing up, much less run for President:

                  Conclusion

                  The beginning of the modern trend to greater polarization began with the breakdown of the three-party system in the 1970s. For almost fifty years the United States had a three political party system (late 1930s to early 1980s). In Congress all three parties easily formed coalitions with one of the others against the third depending on the issue at hand. The northern and southern Democrats united to organize the House and Senate and thereby seize the spoils due the "majority" party. The northern Democrats and Republicans united to pass the 1964 Civil Rights Act and the 1965 Voting Rights Act, and the "conservative coalition" of Republicans and southern Democrats united to block liberal economic (and in the 1970s, social) policies.

                  The demise of this system began with the assassination of President Kennedy. President Johnson was able to do what Kennedy was unable to do - push fundamental civil rights legislation through Congress. This was followed by President Johnson's 1964 landslide victory over "extremist" Barry Goldwater that produced a liberal northern Democratic Congressional majority for the first time since 1936. This destabilized the Democratic coalition. Democrats in the 89th Congress no longer required southern support to pass many of the expansive federal programs that are so much a part of our current political debate. These programs along with other redistributive programs initiated by the federal courts - mandatory school busing being the most conspicuous - led to a polarizing backlash11 in the late 1960s and early 1970s. The effects of this backlash were blunted by Watergate, and the Republican Party did not fully recover its footing until the 1980 elections.

                  The old southern Democratic Party has, in effect, disintegrated, and with it the disappearance of the second dimension of congressional voting. Race has been drawn into the first dimension because race-related issues are increasingly questions of redistribution. The end result is that the Democrat and Republican parties have become more homogeneous and are now deeply polarized. The moderates are gone and we are left with a polarized, unidimensional Congress.

                  Now, perhaps Obama is aware of all this.  Perhaps he's a whole lot smarter than I'm implicitly giving him credit for.  Perhaps he is deliberately mischaraterizing the source of polarization, because he dare not address what I have talked about if he wishes to be President, rather than social critic.

                  That's a possibility I'll look at in my next diary.

                  p.s. One final note: There's more goodies to come from this analysis that have nothing to do with Obama.  Obama has raised these concerns to a high level of visibility, but the concerns--and their not-always obvious implications--exist independently of his candidacy.


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                  This conclusion caught my eye... (4.00 / 3)
                  Typically economists, political economists, and political scientists think that economic inequality is self-correcting: If inequality increases there will be a mobilization of lower-income voters in a push toward greater redistribution of wealth to offset that inequality. Here's where immigration is a big part of the story, though, because at the same time as economic inequality in America was increasing, immigration was increasing, too. There were increasing numbers of low-wage workers, but an increasing proportion of those were immigrants who were not yet naturalized and therefore not able to vote for redistributionist policies. And so there's a reinforcing effect from the composition of the work force being more immigrant and less citizen, because these low-income workers can't vote.

                  I assume the authors made this statement in the light of 'The Great Compression', as Krugman  labels it, that occurred due to FDR's New Deal. And I do not argue with the quote but I would add that one of the things we see today is that the voters have been ignorant of why they are struggling financially. Amidst the distractions, see the shiny toys, and deflections, IslamoFascists want to cut your throat in your bed, it is very noticeable that the corporatist media will allow no meaningful discussion of the stratification of income.

                  In other words the citizenry has been kept in ignorance. I can't tell you how many conversations I had with folks about the 2001 tax cuts where folks were adamant, adamant that it was great to get their $300.00 back. They just refused to grasp that others were going to get hundreds of thousands.

                  This has changed. I can now assert to the same people that, 'You will never have any real money, nor will your children, as the vast majority of the wealth has been appropriated by Bush's Base and get a disgruntled nod.

                  Great post which I am printing out for my Drinking Liberally meetup in an hour.

                  Peace, Health and Prosperity for Everyone.


                  You Make An Excellent Point (0.00 / 0)
                  This relates directly to my comments about the political limits of the authors' analytical approach.  They are entirely oblivious to the organized culture war (in the Gramscian sense) that movement conservatives have waged since the 70s.

                  The essence of this culture war in its "Movement of Position" phase is to secure dominance of the broad range of institutions throughout our society and use them for ideological/political ends.

                  Institutions that directly impact the shaping of political discourse are naturally high on the target list, and thus produce exactly the sort of output you point to.

                  Of course, what the authors do point to is the underlying socio-political reality that movement conservatives have been able to exploit to the hilt.  And it is equally foolish to pretend this reality doesn't exist as it is to pretend that the culture war doesn't.

                  "You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


                  [ Parent ]
                  I have all but given up (4.00 / 3)
                  on trying to reason with anyone who's not especially tuned in to the developments of the past 7 or so years (although many of them had their genesis in the 90's if not earlier) about such things. Pretty much everyone I know thinks that Bush is an idiot and that he and the Pubs have horribly mismanaged the country since Bush took over, both at home and abroad, and that this stems from their corruption, incompetence and dereliction of duty. That much most people don't need to be convinced of anymore.

                  But when I try to talk to the very same people about the specifics--i.e. the specific BushCo policies that have caused all of this deterioration and destruction--their eyes sort of glaze over and they stiffen up and adopt an attitude of denial, detachment and disinterest. I.e. they know that the patient has cancer and is quite sick, but they don't want to know about the gory details, and continue to be in denial about them. It's quite bizarre. Which is what makes me believe that the current dissatisfaction with the GOP could be short-lived if Dems don't capitalize on it smartly--and strategically--soon.

                  People don't like the results of GOP policies, but are less upset with the policies themselves (mostly because they don't understand them, and why they're so awful, and to a large extent actually still like them, and buy into their faulty justifications), and haven't yet made the connection--or are ready to make the connection--between the two. And if Dems falter, and things get slighter better economically (as they have militarily in Iraq), Pubs will be ripe for a comeback (assuming that they can heal this brewing fundie/nativist-corporatist/neocon rift).

                  I.e. a lot of people still like or are ok with all those tax cuts, an aggressive foreign policy, "enhanced interrogation techniques", warrantless wiretaps, etc., because they're still perceived as being good for them and the US (or at least not so bad), and have not yet grasped that it is precisely these policies that have caused so many of the very problems that plague us today and which these very same people are upset about. Denial and disconnect are still very much operative with so many people today. It's almost surreal.

                  It's as if someone came down with lung cancer and is understandably quite upset with it, but hasn't quite yet made the connection between it and a lifetime of heavy smoking, and refuse to either quit smoking or admit that it was likely the primary cause for their getting lung cancer. I see such denial in acknowledging the inherent badness (both moral and practical) of so many BushCo policies in people who now decry these policies' consequences, and in making the connection between these policies and their consequences.

                  I can sort of understand why this is happening, though. We have today a population that to a large extent has bought into these policies and the ideology behind them for literally decades now, since Reagan took over. And, for a time, they worked--or seemed to work, for them at least. E.g. the financial boom of the mid to late 80's, mid to late 90's, and early to mid 00's, which many people associate with these economic policies. Or the lack of another 9/11 since 9/11, which many people associate with our national security and foreign policies. Justified or not, people have come to view these policies as the cause of such positive outcomes.

                  What they have not yet done, or appear ready to do, is view the same policies as the cause of many of the more negative outcomes that we've seen in recent years. Part of this, I think, is due to not understanding these policies and their various consequences--i.e. just give me my damn tax cut and spare me the economic mumbo jumbo, or so long as only Ayrabs are being tortured and we're safe at home, I don't care about no damned civil liberties. But part of it is simple denial--people like the good outcomes, and want to ignore the bad ones. Thus the disconnect. And I see no sign that this will improve any time soon. People will continue to vote for the party that is seen as giving them positive outcomes, and against the party that is seen as giving them negative outcomes, and not on the basis of underlying policies.

                  "Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


                  [ Parent ]
                  It's Worse Then That (0.00 / 0)
                  Or pehaps, in a way, better.

                  Worse, because there's been a coherent attack on people's crticial thinking facilities.  Associational thought has been pushed intensively, and causal thinking has been attacked at every turn.

                  Better, since the fact that it has taken a massive assault on reason to debilitate people so means that (a) countermeasures are possible, and (b) there is still an inherent capacity to think, buried there somewhere, that we need only work to revive and nurture.

                  "You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


                  [ Parent ]
                  I'm not sure that's possible (0.00 / 0)
                  At least not to the extent that some wish.  I get the sense that some want a hyper-activated citizen democracy where the average person thinks about politics as much and in as much depth as the lefty blogosphere currently does.  I'm unsure what countermeasures you think are possible.

                  One thing that political science research tells us is that a great many voters use heuristics to arrive at political decisions.  The heuristics sometimes employ flawed logic but often do a good job at allowing voters to reach by simple methods the same conclusion the voters would reach by more thoughtful consideration.

                  Arguably, one fault of the left has been an inability to understand human nature and appeal to heuristical thought rather than critical thought.

                  Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both


                  [ Parent ]
                  Oh, I Agree With You (0.00 / 0)
                  In fact, I covered this last week.  The progressive ideal of a policy wonk citizenry not only just ain't gonna happen, but would actually be rather freakish if it did.  (The Athenians had something like that, and all it took was a 1-in-10 ratio of citizens to women, children and slaves, and they still ended up running amok in the Peloponnesian Wars just like we did in Vietnam!  Yeah, dig it. I read Thucidides in 1967-68.)

                  But what we can hope for is an escape from intentionally manufactured delusion, so that the delegation of powers and those hueristics you refer to work reasonably well to actually deliver "good enough" government (in the same sense as Winnicott's "good enough mother":

                  Winnicott sees the key role of the 'good enough' mother as adaptation to the baby, thus giving it a sense of control, 'omnipotence' and the comfort of being connected with the mother. This 'holding environment' allows the infant to transition at its own rate to a more autonomous position.

                    "The good-enough mother...starts off with an almost complete adaptation to her infant's needs, and as time proceeds she adapts less and less completely, gradually, according to the infant's growing ability to deal with her failure" (Winnicott, 1953)

                  The 'not good enough' mother leads to 'false self disorders' in the child.

                    "In the cases on which my work is based there has been what I call a true self hidden, protected by a false self. This false self is no doubt an aspect of the true self. It hides and protects it, and it reacts to the adaptation failures and develops a pattern corresponding to the pattern of environmental failure. In this way the true self is not involved in the reacting, and so preserves a continuity of being." (Winnicott, 1955-6)

                  He sees the micro-interactions between the mother and child as central to the development of the internal world. After the early stage of connection with the mother and illusions of omnipotence comes the stage of 'relative dependence', where they realize their dependence and learn about loss. By moving away from the child in well-timed small doses, the mother helps develop a healthy sense of independence. Her failure to adapt to every need of the child helps them adapt to external realities.

                  Obviously, it's not a direct parallel, but a general one.  The government doesn't solve all problems, doesn't respond to all perceived needs, and isn't always a highly visible part of people's lives.  But it does what's needed in the big picture, responds effectively to major needs, so that people have plenty of space to live and shape their own lives and develope their own autonomy, without having to worry that the ocean's going to rise in a decade or two and wash them all away.

                  "You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


                  [ Parent ]
                  Come on (4.00 / 1)
                  That is not the kind of comity or bipartisanship that Obama is looking for.  Yes the parties were less divided before we enacted the Civil Rights act and lost the south for a generation, but correlation does not imply that it is the only solution.

                  The best data out of this is the implication that we can reduce partisan acrimony by decreasing income inequality

                  Obama is working to strengthen the Democratic coalition and build bridges to what remains of the Republican party.  It is inherently true that a larger party will by its nature include a broader spectrum politically.  I think it is very dubious to argue that he yearns for the good old days of the Dixiecrats.

                  The partisan divide feeds the needs of the right wing, and does not benefit American or the Democratic party.

                  My job is not to represent Washington to you, but to represent you to Washington- Obama
                  Philly for Obama


                  You Are Misconstruing My Arguement (0.00 / 0)
                  I think it is very dubious to argue that he yearns for the good old days of the Dixiecrats.

                  Not consciously. Not intentionally.  But as a matter of inescapable historical fact.  That's what it was like in "the good old days."

                  I am certainly not saying that Obama wants to resurrect Strom Thurmond in his pre-GOP days, and elect him to the Senate.  I made it very clear that I was talking about the unexamined nature of the golden daze Obama was invoking.

                  The question is not what Obama wants, it is the nature of the reality behind the image.

                  Obama is working to strengthen the Democratic coalition and build bridges to what remains of the Republican party.

                  If the GOP really were the total shambles such language implies ("what remains of the Republican party"), then Obama's strategy would be a whole lot more convincing.  But it would still be historically and intellectually questionable.  What I'm about here is getting the best possible understanding of historical and political reality.

                  It's my belief that the best way one can change the world in any fundamental way is by understanding it--not denying it.  And therefore, what I am arguing against is misunderstanding, misrepresentation, and misapprehension of how the world works, and has worked in the past.

                  I applaud Obama's desire to speak to the possibility of what can be.  But to do so by misrepresenting what has been, rather than facing it honestly, is a recipe for failure, either in the short run, the long run, or both.  And that is what gravely concerns me.

                  "You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


                  [ Parent ]
                  In his book "The Audacity of Hope" (4.00 / 4)
                  Obama denounces the so-called "Golden Age" of civility of the 50's.  He has a whole chapter about it and how it was built on segregation.  It's a great read.

                  Chapter One.

                  It's not an unexamined daze.

                  One Million Strong --- Join up!


                  [ Parent ]
                  But It's Not Reflected In His Campaign (0.00 / 0)
                  This is actually something I've been chewing on in the context of the Progressive/Populist argument first raised last weekend. There are things that Obama realizes--and reflects in the details of some of his legislation, for example--that none-the-less do not get translated to or reflected in how he conducts his poltical campaign or how he spoke in public prior to launching his campaign.

                  This reflects an aspect of progressive thought that thinks ordinary people incapable of grasping the essence of certain arguments, or at least gives up on them for one reason or another.  (The populist flip side--equally mistaken--is simply to assume the people are inherently all-virtuous, and don't actually have to struggle as well, themselves.) I think it is particularly unfortunate that Obama embodies aspects of this sort of thinking, because his personal magnetism is precisely the sort of orienting potential that can help focus people on paying attention to and grappling with the very issues that he declines to engage them in.

                  Just one concrete example, because I happened to be thinking about it just before this posted.  When Obama was asked about reparations several months ago, he quickly dismissed the idea.

                  I can certainly understand the political logic involved.  But consider: the GOP has doubled down on abolishing estate taxes, so that the super-rich can pass on everything they've gotten their hands on to their kids.  But it's off the table to ask about inherited debts?  Now, why couldn't someone with all of Obama's gifts figure out a way to engage people in just thinking about these two contradictory frameworks of assumption?  And wouldn't having people grapple with this sort of contradiction have an enormous educative potential?

                  This is an examle of what I find missing from Obama that could so easily be there.  And I wish that many more people would see this as well.  Because if we were far more conscious of what more we could ask of him--as with any other candidate--then we could be pushing him to be more of the sort of leader we need.

                  It is, as ever, the case: When the people lead, the leaders will follow.  It's up to us to see where this should be.

                  "You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


                  [ Parent ]
                  I hope I am misconstructing your argument (4.00 / 1)
                  Barack's message of post-partisanship is not a nostalgic message, it is a vision going forward.  My understanding of his attitude is that he will not govern like a republican hack.  That he will try to find policy solutions that work for as many of our citizens as possible rather than whip up a frenzy by throwing red meat to the extremes of American politics.

                  If you are looking for a political analogy, I would look back to the generations before the Civil War.  For a generation regional enemies in the Senate found ways to compromise that prevented and postponed the war.  One can argue that we should have done things differently, and certainly some of those compromises are unsavory from a modern viewpoint.  The point is that they used their political skills and influence to unite the Nation rather than divide it.

                  The best interpretation of your argument that I can come up with is that since you are a member of the political extreme you are looking forward to having the red meat tossed to you.  You are hoping that our next president will bring radical change, even if it is against the will of a sizable minority or even a majority of our citizens.  If that is the case, then I can see why you find Obama threatening.

                  I do not think that your analysis holds very well unless you can show that Obama's idea of comity and civility is consciously  grounded in 40s and 50s politics.  He is not proposing that the Democratic party be composed of two distinct sub-parties, but that we attempt to govern for all of our citizens.

                  I think that seeking the consent of the governed is a liberal progressive ideal.

                  My job is not to represent Washington to you, but to represent you to Washington- Obama
                  Philly for Obama


                  [ Parent ]
                  To me this is.... (4.00 / 2)
                  exactly backwards:

                  The best data out of this is the implication that we can reduce partisan acrimony by decreasing income inequality

                  At times it's easy to get a little off-track in one of Paul's data filled posts but here's how I see it.

                  I don't give a good gotdamn about 'partisan acrimony'. It doesn't cause people to go to be hungry every night in America, as JRE aptly reminds folks to the horror of 'Versailles', and it doesn't close off the future to millions of working class Americans, yes they still exist, as the deliberately engineered income stratification does.

                  In fact, 'partisan acrimony' is just another form of deflection, like crotch shots of Brittany Spears, to keep the real issue hidden.

                  The real issue is growing income disparity which threatens our society with violent discord and worse. This state of affairs is eating away at the level of societal trust which all productive economies need. Read my post:

                  'Theory of Pie'.

                  and then read The Origin of Wealth; it's an eye-opener.

                  Obama and other apologists for the existing state of affairs are unaware of the abyss over which they trod....

                  On very thin ice.

                  Peace, Health and Prosperity for Everyone.


                  [ Parent ]
                  wow (4.00 / 1)
                  "In yearning for a return of the civility of yesteryear, is Barack Obama actually yearning for the return of the Dixiecrats, who sought to keep blacks legally segregated in South in a condition of second-class citizenship?  In a word-yes.  Of course it's not a conscious intention on his part."

                  what a stunning leap of illogic. Even by your standards.

                  That's about as logical as saying, "In yearning for a return of the unity that characterized [e.g.] the FDR WW2 period, is Barack Obama actually yearning for the rise of an Adolf Hitler-like figure, which united American society around a shared sense of purpose and fear? In a word-yes."

                  please do not continue this diary


                  William James Already Dealt With This (4.00 / 1)
                  In writing about "The Moral Equivalent of War."  And many people since then have drawn on him.  Which is quite possibly why Obama and other Democrats don't mindlessly yearn "for a return of the unity that characterized [e.g.] the FDR WW2 period."

                  There's also the little matter of everyone knowing the price that was paid for thatr unity.

                  The same, however, cannot be said for the era I point to.  And that was the whole point of my post--which, rather obviously, you've totally missed.

                  As Bob Dylan once sang, "Don't criticize what you can't understand."

                  "You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


                  [ Parent ]
                  Leave the inflammatory comments out (0.00 / 0)

                  In yearning for a return of the civility of yesteryear, is Barack Obama actually yearning for the return of the Dixiecrats, who sought to keep blacks legally segregated in South in a condition of second-class citizenship?  In a word-yes.

                  Nice way to turn an interesting analysis piece into a flame war.


                  Now, perhaps Obama is aware of all this.  Perhaps he's a whole lot smarter than I'm implicitly giving him credit for.  Perhaps he is deliberately mischaraterizing the source of polarization, because he dare not address what I have talked about if he wishes to be President, rather than social critic.

                  Consider this: maybe your analysis of the deeper underpinnings of American polarization doesn't make for a very good stump speech.

                  The truth about Saxby Chambliss


                  Sure, But... (4.00 / 1)
                  I wasn't suggesting that Obama should give lectures on American political history.

                  What ever gave you the idea that I was?

                  "Addressing the issues" doesn't necearrily mean presenting an analysis of the problem.  It does mean not pretending that it doesn't exist.

                  Obama, for example, spends a lot more time taking pot-shots at imaginary boogey-men on the left than he does talking about the fact that there are bad as well as good reasons, rationales and motives involved in tempering polarization.

                  And why should it be a flame war?  I quite clearly stated that this was a part of the package that Obama was refering to, not his object of desire.  The question here is about what the reality is, not the desire.

                  His desire may be 100% pure.  But we all know what the interstate to hell is paved with.

                  "You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


                  [ Parent ]
                  This sounds like a post for MYDD (4.00 / 1)
                  Convoluted, trite, quasi-Rovian!

                  Trite? (0.00 / 0)
                  I did a google search on the title of book:

                  Results 1 - 30 of about 631 for "Polarized America: The Dance of Ideology and Unequal Riches"

                  Try another insult, please.  One not quite so easily refuted.

                  "You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


                  [ Parent ]
                  1 out of 3 is good in baseball (0.00 / 0)
                  I guess you accept convoluted and quasi-Rovian.

                  First, let me welcome you to the obsessed with Obama club.

                  Civility is a tactic - one among many.

                  I enjoyed this trip on The Hindenburg but can you drop me on the ground.  We're busy.  We've got an establishment machine to beat, 65 million votes to get and a country to govern.

                  Merry Christmas, although I suspect your favorite day of the year is May 1.


                  [ Parent ]
                  Not As An Error Rate-- .998 Is More Like It (0.00 / 0)
                  And I accept nothing written by someone who can't read.

                  I just shoot the easy targets when dealing with a bufoon.

                  Your assumption that you are fighting the establishment and I am not is typical of the narcissistic self-absorption amongst all too many Obamaphiles than turns off so many, rather than drawing them in or inspiring them.

                  Hint: That's the easy target in your comment.

                  "You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


                  [ Parent ]
                  asdf (0.00 / 0)
                  "Your assumption that you are fighting the establishment and I am not is typical of the narcissistic self-absorption amongst all too many Obamaphiles"

                  As opposed to who? Hillary supporters, I suppose...


                  [ Parent ]
                  Doesn't mattter does it? (4.00 / 2)

                  '.....Whosoever shall oppose me I shall condemn.'

                  Is that not the creed of the Obama cultiist?

                  As to 'fighting  the establishment...' pal you must not have gotten the memo. People who fought the establishment were named Bobby Seale, Martin Luther King, Angela Davis, Robert Kennedy, Malcolm X, Herbert Marcuse, Abbie Hoffman, Tom Hayden.

                  I've seen and participated in real grass roots movements which registered black citizens to vote, which took down a sitting president, which stopped an illegal and immoral war.

                  Obama?

                  MySpace pages and community organizing designed to get him into the Senate ain't gonna cut it pal.

                  On a personal level my name is in the FBI files as having refused induction into the armed forces in a time of war. I didn't go to Canada. I stayed right here and told the government, 'Here I am, come and get me. And all the money you spend locking me up will be money you can't use to kill Vietnamese with.'

                  The government blinked.

                  Now, kindly explain to me how a guy who likes to vote 'present' or be 'out of town' when the deal goes down is gonna stop the War Machine?

                  Kindly explain what Senator 'Hope's' plan is to do something about the one million Iraqi dead and 3 to 4 million displaced?

                  I'd really like to hear about that.

                  I'm willing to bet that others here on this site would too.

                  Peace, Health and Prosperity for Everyone.


                  [ Parent ]
                  Me To (0.00 / 0)
                  I was packed and ready to go to prison.  For whatever reason they never came after me.

                  "You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

                  [ Parent ]
                  see my reply to Paul below (0.00 / 0)
                  I don't know what you thought I was saying, but I don't think I was saying it.

                  [ Parent ]
                  I'm No Clinton Fan (0.00 / 0)
                  But her supporters are not noticeably narcissistic in my experience.

                  More and better insults, please!

                  "You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


                  [ Parent ]
                  What the hell? (0.00 / 0)
                  I think you need to reread that post. I don't see how it can be interpreted as an insult.

                  You: "Your assumption that you are fighting the establishment and I am not is typical of the narcissistic self-absorption amongst all too many Obamaphiles"

                  Me: I don't see how that's in any way exclusive to Obama supporters. (Browse some of the Edwards diaries at DailyKos to see what I mean). Caveat: It may not be representative of Hillary supporters, because I (honestly) don't know whether they believe they're fighting the establishment.

                  These sorts of umbrella insults get us nowhere, so I'm not sure why you made one. Every group has reasonable people in it as well as idiots.


                  [ Parent ]
                  What may Paul be missing? (0.00 / 0)
                  My sense after reading Paul's post and the comments it prompted is that he identifies an important thread of historical analysis that's relevant to the question of political polarization and its source (and arguably less so to the question of "civility"), but that this doesn't necessarily provide (nor does it seem to claim to) a definitive analysis of Obama, his perspective and his strategy, and that, like any focused historical analysis, may very well miss other (perhaps less easily quantified) evolutionary threads (and their interactions), as well as situations, dynamics, individuals, etc. that are relatively unique to the present and the future we face.

                  So, to Obama backers among us (I'm currently neutral/ambivalent), I'd suggest trying to identify those things Paul may have missed, rather than defensively attacking his arguments or motives.


                  Not Thinking Things Through (0.00 / 0)
                  That's what I'm criticizing.  And I'm getting attacked by all sorts of people who--surprise!--aren't thinking things through.

                  This is one of the most pernicious, insidious things about a political force like the Bush Regime.  It reduces many of its opponents to the same sort of low level of black-and-white thinking, grasping for short-term fixes, failure to consider the full range of consequences, etc.  I just think we need to maintain our standards and be a whole lot better than that.

                  Rational thought is your friend.

                  "You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


                  [ Parent ]
                  I just don't understand (0.00 / 0)
                  what exactly it is you're trying to say. Could you provide the specific quote from Obama you're responding to here? That could help.

                  As it is, it really does seem like you're saying "Obama wants civility like in the old days, and the old days had bad things; therefore, Obama wants bad things", followed by a whole ton of interesting charts and commentary about polarization to support the claim that the civility was caused by bad things, but which was never the weakest link in the argument in the first place. Is it inconceivable that Obama's meaning could be "I'd like civility; for example, the old days had civility", rather than "I'd like the old days back because they had civility?". That civility could possibly arise out of any other set of circumstances besides those?


                  [ Parent ]
                  I'm Saying Be Careful What You Wish For (4.00 / 1)
                  My perspective is that civility is an end result.  Sometimes it's the end result of good things. Sometimes it's the end result of bad things.  Making it a central point of your politics runs the profund risk or raising the trivial and the tertiary to the level of primacy and greatest importance.  And this is what I think Obama has done, to a dangerous degree.  Not 100%, not by a long shot.  It's not like he hasn't talked about other things as well.  But he has made it a defining halmark of his campaign, and I think it's quite clear that this simply--and disasterously--misreads the course of American history.

                  As Frederick Douglass famously said:

                  If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favour freedom, and yet deprecate agitation, are people who want rain without thunder and lightning. They want the ocean without the roar of its many waters. Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will.

                  That is the overarching moral truth that frames the data presented in this diary.  If we want peace, we must struggle for justice.  If we struggle merely for peace, we will be forced into compromise upon compromise upon compromise, turning ourselves into the craven ones we now despise.

                  "You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


                  [ Parent ]
                  Inner peace versus appeasement (4.00 / 1)
                  Paul said:

                  If we want peace, we must struggle for justice.If we struggle merely for peace, we will be forced into compromise upon compromise upon compromise, turning ourselves into the craven ones we now despise.

                   
                  What I'd like to see in a candidate--and what some Obama supporters may see in him--is a person who is at peace with themselves (comfortable with who they are, confident and unintimidated by opposition, clear in their purpose, etc.), but who also fights smart and hard for justice, freedom and relief of human suffering, and is not naive about their opposition or what needs to be done (for those with a metaphysical bent, think Arjuna the warrior as counseled by his charioteer Krishna to wage a righteous war on enemies who happened to be his relatives).

                  Put another way, that sense of inner peace provides a center point for one's moral compass and sense of both compassion and passion, as well as strategic and tactical mental clarity.  In contrast, one seeking peace through appeasement weakens these qualities for the sake of that appeasement.  One is strong and fearless, the other is weak and needy. 

                  I don't have a clear sense of where Obama, Edwards, Clinton and the rest fit on this score, but to me this distinction is important to keep in mind in evaluating candidates, and is an element not directly addressed in Paul's analysis, which focused on other things.

                  These qualities are admittedly hard to read, given the nature of scripted and controlled campaigns taking place amidst thick clouds of pack journalism-fed CW.  One thing that attracted me to Clark and Dean in 04 was that they seemed to embody them more than the rest of the field at that time.  It's certainly not the only quality worth voting for, but I do think its a fundamental one when it comes to a super high-pressure, high-stakes job like POTUS.

                  And, regardless of where he fits within this dichotomy, I think the enthusiastic and hope-filled support for Obama reflects a widespread, if sometimes fuzzy, appreciation of its importance.

                  To clarify, I'm not talking about the superficial "strength and inner peace" some ascribe to Bush, which strikes me as fed by staunch denial of reality, among other dysfunctional tendencies.  And, as Bush's speech and behavior has demonstrated over the years, the absurdity and dysfunctionality of and harm caused by this denial escalates as it interacts with reality.  The qualities I'm talking about include wisdom, adaptability and strategic clarity that are enhanced by their interaction with reality.


                  [ Parent ]
                  It's Worth Noting How Much MLK Had This (0.00 / 0)
                  As did many others within the Civil Rights Movement.  They knew that they faced the very real possibility of death at any time.  But at their core they were at peace in their struggle for justice.  As a teenager, this was so patently obvious that there simply weren't any white politicians who were anywhere close to the level of leadership and moral authority I saw in King, John Lewis, Medger Evers or Malcolm X.

                  "You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

                  [ Parent ]
                  he's saying (0.00 / 0)
                  that his scintillating genius hath illumined for the unenlightened, madding crowd, the formerly hidden, but now revealed, fact that Obama would cheer the resurgence of the Dixiecrats.

                  And that people like you are being unthinking wingnuts by stepping back and saying, "uh...wtf?"


                  [ Parent ]
                  I Never Said Anything Of The Sort (0.00 / 0)
                  And anyone who actually reads what I wrote knows it.

                  "You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

                  [ Parent ]
                  patently absurd arguments (0.00 / 0)
                  do not deserve the respect of a point-by-point, legalistic takedown.

                  as another commenter already mostly said: "Obama speaks highly of something in good times; therefore he wants those good times; therefore he's actually hankering for the bad things in those good times; therefore, although he lacks my postgraduate enlightenment to ever hope to see this, he is actually lusting after Jim Crow bigotry and black people getting flattened by Bull Connor's water cannons."

                  Civility shouldn't prohibit pointing out that this kind of "work" is utter garbage.


                  [ Parent ]
                  Teh only 'utter garbage' on this thread is (4.00 / 1)
                  your pathetic attempts to....what?

                  Well, actually it's not clear what you are saying. No surprise, there are always such as you in the crowed.

                  Ignorant and determined to stay that way.

                  Come back when you can define you criticisms in your own words instead mangling those of others.

                  Peace, Health and Prosperity for Everyone.


                  [ Parent ]
                  Couple of points (0.00 / 0)
                  What are the liberal-conservative axes based off? You say that Northern liberals haven't got any more liberal since the end of WW2. But on issues such as gay rights and abortion, they assuredly have done. Not to say that I necessarily disagree, and wouldn't care either way as any political movement to the left in America is good in my book, but more details would help.

                  Also, whilst I'm sure you're better acquainted with the figures than I am - most of my education on this has come from the blogosphere, as decent analyses of the American political system are hard to find in Britain outside of university libraries, and I spend enough time in those as it is - I'd have to say that the religious right cannot be viewed as solely a high income group. Largely, perhaps, but when talking about low-income Americans being not much more Republican than the nation as a whole, one must first exclude groups such as blacks who are monolithically Democratic. Then of course there's the whole issue of correlation of wealth to voting behaviour varying by geographic region, but I digress.

                  Still, overall, I find it pretty convincing. And by winding up a lot of Obama fans you appear to be a) enjoying yourself and b) getting people to read at least some of your arguments, so maybe they'll seep in long term. Keep it up.

                  Forgotten Countries - a foreign policy-focused blog


                  These Are Empirically Driven From Below (0.00 / 0)
                  It's based on roll-call votes.  So it really says nothing about the content of what's being voted on, as opposed to relative positions.  Certain issues are subject to long-term monotonic trends--everyone moves away from segregation, eventually,  And the same thing is now happeninig with moving toward gay rights.

                  So on issues like that, the positions may change over time, but the relative positions to their contemporaries are what's being measured, and these figures indicate that overall they haven't changed in this comparative sense.  (Who cares if you'd scandalize your grandmother? Wouldn't everyone?)

                  In addition, most issues that have been tracked in long-term polling data are cyclical.  Particularly policies may change--forms of social programs, for example--but the balance of intentions (spend more or less) cycles around more-or-less set points.

                  I'd have to say that the religious right cannot be viewed as solely a high income group.

                  I don't think they're arguing that.  I think they're arguing that there's a large contingent of people who are both religious and upper-income, so that there's not this absolute split between so-called "country-club Republicans" and the religious right.  Add to that the well-known fact that US voting rates are heavily class-skewed, and that means that poor whites voting against their economic interests are a significantly smaller part of the overall story than most folks believe.  This is especially true as one looks outsides the South.  This is, of course, a relative argument, so it's sort of squishy, but they do have a valid point.

                  And, of course, it's also the case that people tend to follow "influentials," so that poorer people generally tend to vote like those they know who are better off, meaning it's not just the influence of the religious right that has this effect.

                  "You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


                  [ Parent ]
                  Too far. (0.00 / 0)
                  To say Barack Obama learning For the racist years of the Dixiecrats is frankly insulting to him. You You could have made these good points without implying that Barack Obama would like to return to the days of racism. That's a vicious smear and there's no two ways about it.

                  John McCain: Beacuse lobbyists should have more power

                  Just Read What I Wrote! (0.00 / 0)
                  In yearning for a return of the civility of yesteryear, is Barack Obama actually yearning for the return of the Dixiecrats, who sought to keep blacks legally segregated in South in a condition of second-class citizenship?  In a word-yes.  Of course it's not a conscious intention on his part. [Emphasis added, so you can't miss it!]

                  Now, if I had buried that sentence down in the fifth paragraph or something you might have a point.  But right there as the immediate followup? No way, Jose.  That makes it blindingly obvious that I am not accusing Obama of intentionally wanting those bad old days back--merely of not really thinking this through.  (And what good's a leader who won't think things through.  We already have one of those.)

                  Conservatives do this shit all the time--invoking the good old days.  And we rightly criticize them for it.  So when one of our own does the same, they are deserving of the same sort of scrutiny.  It's not that I'm saying he's evil.  He's not.  But he is seriously misreading history.  And that is always dangerous in a would-be President.

                  We are citizens, not subjects. And the deepest loyalty we owe to our leaders is to keep them honest.  The truly great leaders know and appreciate this.

                  "You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


                  [ Parent ]
                  I read that (0.00 / 0)
                  But even bringing it up reeks of a smear. You're going way to far to prove that Obama is bad.

                  Keeping them honest doesn't mean using their political rhetoric to attack them. Obama longs for CIVILITY. Just like Paul Wellstone, Paul Simon, Russ Feingold. All of them. Maybe he isn't a political scientist.

                  Barack Obama can't think every single thing he says through and he isn't going to spend time thinking about all the possible interpretations of each thing he says.

                  Conservatives do shit like praising Trett Lott for voting for a racist. Barack Obama wanting civility in politics doesn't even come close to comparing.

                  You could have pointed out that Obama is wrong on reasoning for polarization. I would agree with you totally. However you singled out Barack Obama for you're criticisms. Ask any major presidental canidate if they would like political life to be more civil. I challenge you to find one who disagrees. They may not talk about it as much but they all want it. So why single out Obama?

                  I'm not going to convice you so I probably just wasted my time but I guess I am just tired of people wanting the man to be perfect. He's not. I think I could find something wrong with him on any issue you name but no one is perfect.

                  Forget it.

                  John McCain: Beacuse lobbyists should have more power


                  [ Parent ]
                  But I'm NOT Saying That Obama Is Bad! (0.00 / 0)
                  But even bringing it up reeks of a smear. You're going way to far to prove that Obama is bad.

                  That's just ridiculous!  Saying that he's making a bad argument is not saying that he's a bad person!  This ought to go without saying.

                  You could have pointed out that Obama is wrong on reasoning for polarization. I would agree with you totally. However you singled out Barack Obama for you're criticisms. Ask any major presidental canidate if they would like political life to be more civil. I challenge you to find one who disagrees. They may not talk about it as much but they all want it. So why single out Obama?

                  Maybe because he's made it the calling card of his campaign? (While both Edwards and Clinton--in different ways--have made it very clear that they know how to fight and are prepared to.)  And because, if the central argument of his campaign is based on an objectively false analysis, then that is something very serious that needs to be discussed?

                  Yet, instead of discussing the information I've presented here, all the Obama supporters I'm aware of who have commented here have focused on attacking me for their misreadings that have me attacking him.

                  This is reality-avoiding behavior on a par with what Republicans usually put out.  And I find that a bit distressing, to say the least.

                  "You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


                  [ Parent ]
                  I think that's because (0.00 / 0)
                  you didn't phrase your meaning very clearly. No offense meant. The "civility should be the consequence, and not the goal" bit is clear once you point it on in the comments, but it honestly wasn't from reading the article.

                  [ Parent ]
                  I Can't Anticipate Every Way In Which I'm Likely To Be Misunderstood (0.00 / 0)
                  I could clarify everything, but that would take 1,000 pages. So I have to pick and choose what gets focused on.

                  But since Obamaphiles have steadfastly ignored the main thrust of this diary, I am left with the very strong supicion that whatever I had written they would have found something to misinterpret, and glommed onto that, instead of the main thrust of what I wrote.

                  "You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


                  [ Parent ]
                  No. (4.00 / 1)
                  You began the diary with something inflammatory (intentionally, for effect?) -- "Does Obama want the Dixiecrats back? In a word: yes", and then only clarified it with "but not consciously"; in other words, maybe's he's not malicious, only stupid. You then don't address this at all for the rest of the diary, despite the title and opening paragraph suggesting that it is the focus. Are you surprised that when you throw out something inflammatory and don't effectively defuse it, people react negatively? Can you believe that people aren't misunderstanding your point about Obama intentionally to annoy you (though obviously, there's some of those, too), but because your point about Obama was genuinely unclear? If "Obama wants the Dixiecrats back" wasn't the main thing you meant to say, maybe you should have introduced your essay on the historical causes of polarization and civility in a different way, or at least actually clarified what you meant somewhere in it.

                  [ Parent ]
                  You Are Obseessed With Obama's Persona (0.00 / 0)
                  I am writing about ideas.

                  Sorry to disappoint you.

                  "You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


                  [ Parent ]
                  Seriously (4.00 / 1)
                  What the fuck? Let me review:

                  - You lead off a substantive article with something inflammatory, whether it was intended to be or not
                  - People (predictably) are offended or at least confused by the inflammatory part
                  - You're surprised, and accuse them - and Obama supporters in general - of being narcissistic and dishonest
                  - I do my best to convince you that the world isn't actually full of assholes out to get you, and that there really, honestly, might be a logical reason for the reactions you're getting
                  - You, completely out of the blue and in no way relevant to anything I just said, accuse me of being "obsessed with Obama's persona"

                  Do I have that right? I mean, thanks for engaging in the rational and honest discussion you (and I) value so much.

                  Step back for a moment? Please?


                  [ Parent ]
                  The Bottom Line Is Still The Same (0.00 / 0)
                  You've managed to totally avoid discussing my argument and my ideas.

                  However you justify it, that's what you've done.

                  It's a very Republican thing of you to do.

                  War on Christmas, anyone?

                  "You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


                  [ Parent ]
                  I haven't discussed your ideas (0.00 / 0)
                  because I have no disagreement with them. Your point that civility should be a consequence and not a goal in itself is a sound one, and I'm certainly not going to argue with all the data backing it up. We have disagreements on how Obama fits into it all, but that would be getting into Rorschach politics again, which hasn't been very productive. I see it my way, you see it yours.

                  I didn't come here to "win" arguments, or provoke a response, or piss you off, or I don't know what you think my intention is. I saw a case where I thought you were interpreting responses and their context the wrong way, and attempted to point it out. That's it. Is this such a new and foreign thing to you?

                  Oh, and thanks for insulting me again. Very thoughtful of you.


                  [ Parent ]
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