Hegemony Watch: "Mainstreaming Crazy"

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 16:53


In a diary yestrerday, "Mainstreaming Crazy", Digby writes about how the Jerome Corsi book has been factually rebutted, but that that hardly matters:

the job of a book like this isn't necessarily to get people to buy the book, but rather to legitimize some of these existent themes by having it be publicly discussed. It's another way of getting out the word, that's all. They don't care if the media is refuting it or not --- after all it's the "liberal media." Why would anyone think they would tell the truth? in that respect, regardless of the factual pushback, they have already succeeded.

Indeed, they're "debating it" right now on Lou Dobbs. Dobbs just made the point that none of the "attack" books about John McCain are on the NY Times best seller list like Corsi's book and that must tell you something. Mission Accomplished.

She then goes on to make the point that Corsi is a true nutcase--and it doesn't seem to matter--the books sell like hotcakes, because there's an infrastructure out there set to gobble them up.  She quotes Tim Ruttan in the LA Times:

Corsi's book is published by Threshold Editions, a division of Simon & Schuster, which hired right-wing political operative Mary Matalin to edit the imprint. Random House has a similar imprint in Crown Forum, and Penguin Group USA has Sentinel. Their business model -- and this is all about business -- is predicated on the existence of an echo chamber of right-wing radio and television shows willing to promote these publishers' products -- however noxious. Beyond that is a network of conservative book clubs and organizations willing to place the sort of advance bulk orders for controversial books that will guarantee them a place on the bestseller lists.

This is what hegemony looks like.  Rightwing foundations have been funding this for years, and rightwing entreprenuers have been making money in synergy with them: creating a far-flung infrastructure that can support any sort of ideological content that's poured into it.  Nothing could be more dramatically different than the way that left is "organized" in America.

Paul Rosenberg :: Hegemony Watch: "Mainstreaming Crazy"
Digby also linkts to David Neiwert's classic, Koufax-winning essay on the subject of how the right mainstreams its fringe ideas, "Rush, Newspeak and Fascism" (PDF version here--if you haven't read it, what are you waiting for?)  This has not been a secret for a long, long time now, and yet we refuse to do anything about it.

Digby continues:

In fact, the default position among Democrats, Republicans and the media is that the only kooks in the country with whom it is unacceptable to be professionally or financially involved with are on the left. And "the left" is defined so broadly that it includes groups like MoveOn and Vote Vets. The right, in contrast, has fully integrated even their extremist fringe into the mainstream and everyone accepts it.

Sure, people are saying that Corsi's book is full of holes. So what? It's "out there" and it's getting more press every day. And in all of that, nobody's calling out Mrs Carville on the fact that she shepherded these extremist lies into the mainstream. (Or her husband, for that matter.) Yet MoveOn taking out an ad that has the word "Betrayus" in it is worthy of a congressional censure.

As long as the villagers are in agreement that the only people who are truly beyond the pale in American politics are on the left, then this will continue. Mary Matalin will still be considered a perfectly respectable person by both the "right" and the "left" (as if there's any discernible difference among the cognoscenti) and there will be no professional or social repercussions. Meanwhile even staid, old organizations like the ACLU suffer from the myth of being some sort of far left fringe organization and Democratic politicians run for cover when the right wing publicly "tars" them with guilt by association.

If you want to know why I think--and have long thought--that Obama is far less than he seems, this is it in a nutshell: he has raised unprecedented amounts of money, mobilized unprecedented amounts of people, generated unprecedented amounts of enthusiasm, and yet has done virtually nothing to challenge the framework of rightwing hegemony that puts us at a perpetual disadvantage every single minute of every single day.  And it's not as if Obama himself isn't suffering as a result.  It's hurting him as much as it's hurting any other politician in America.

A typical case in point: McCain's campaign has brought Phil Gramn back into the fold, but Obama has seemingly left Wes Clark out in the cold.  And it's not exactly like McCain has any shortage of ignorant, extremist economic advisors he could call on, or that Obama has more four-star generals than he knows what to do with.

No.  This situtation is pure, unadulterated madness.  It's not like bringing a knife to a gunfight.  It's like bringing a plastic yougurt spoon to a nuclear war.


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Ground game (4.00 / 2)
I agree with you heartily that the left suffers from a messaging infrastructure deficit, but will defer judgment on the "plastic spoon to a nuclear war" analogy until after the election when the effectiveness of Obama's ground game can be assessed.

If Obama had any guts at all, he'd find  a way to hit McCain for plagiarizing The Gulag, yet again lying about his record to shill for votes.  


The Ground Game Is Good (4.00 / 2)
But we do not live in an either/or world.

So he gets elected.  How's he going to govern?  Who's going to be his VP?  Wes Clark?  

Kinda doubt it.

Will he challenge the very foundations of the "war on terror" framework?

Kinda doubt it.

Will he challenge the very foundations of anything in the Versailles CW?

Kinda doubt it.

Or will he he be, if we're lucky, like Bill Clinton before him, the best Republican President since Eisenhower?

Sorta think so.

Because what else can he be if he doesn't challenge the rightwing hegemony that Digby's talking about?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
either/or (0.00 / 0)
Where did I say a ground game rendered the type of "informational infrastructure" - a more precise, less unwieldy term than the all-encompassing "hegemony"in this case - that Digby rightly says gives the Republicans an advantage in political messaging?  If anything, I agreed with his point, while arguing for a more holistic definition of "bringing a spork to a tazerbattle," or whatever metaphor was used.  In any case. I'm way more about negative capability than either/or; maybe I could have made this clearer.    

Still, introducing complications into a discussion does not equal either/or reasoning.  I pointed out an obvious counterfactual in an effort to complicate Digby's use of "hegemony" to suggest that it needs a tweaking if it's gonna pass a basic positivist test.  

To the extent that there is Republican political hegemony in the US, it runs a lot deeper than the inability of the Dems to construct an echo chamber through which to legitimize their ideology.  One could argue that the Netroots community, Air America, KO, magazines like the Nation, the academic community in the humanities and social sciences  taken together represent a potential architecture for the leftist messaging machine that Digby cries out for.  But as hegemony is about saturating a populace with a given ideology through soft suasion so that they can conceive of no other alternative than the status quo, the Democratic party needs to quit tailoring their arguments to Republican voters if they're gonna get a viable message, let alone project it.          

As for your comment about the foundations of the "war on terror," Obama does not understand preemptive war as an ideological imperative, nor does he ascribe to the neocon  notion of "the long war" that underlies it.  Whether or not Obama continues to use the insidious term "war on terror" throughout his presidency, these two facts represent a break from the chickenhawkery that has underwritten so much of the tragedy the US has visited on the world since 9/11.


[ Parent ]
More Nuance Up Front, Then (4.00 / 2)
I appreciate this clarification, since your initial comment sure seemed to be saying, "so what, we'll beat 'em on the ground."

I'm glad I was wrong to take it that way.

And, I agree that there's a great deal of potential on the left.  That's what makes it particularly so frustrating.

Regarding the "war on terror" formulation, if you want to see a coherent counter-hegemonic narrative on the subject, check out Andrew J. Bacevich, whose appearance on Bill Moyers Journal I blogged about yesterday.  He was on Ian Masters' Live From the Left Coast today on KPFK (hour 2 of Background Briefing) and he specifically talked about the need for a candidate to challenge the whole "war on terror" paradigm, and his disappointment at how Obama was becoming more and more conventional as the campaign progressed.

Bacevich is self-proclaimed lifelong conservative, but his criticism of the Dems from 2006 through today is right in step with Matt and Chris's.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Two sentences (4.00 / 1)
You sure press hard on a couple of sentences, dontcha?  Again, I said I'd wait and see, pretty non-committal if you ask me.    

Seriously though, I've been following Bacevich and agree.  I also appreciate the intensity you bring to this very real problem.  

I do think, however, that some on the left overestimate the importance of language in and of itself, as though changing what politicians say more or less changes the way people live.  


[ Parent ]
Yeah, I Think Language Is Important, But... (0.00 / 0)
what's behind the language--the "source domain" of the metaphor, for exmple, as Lakoff would say--is why the language is important, and without a messaging infrastructure, no one will ever hear the language, so that's just as important as well.

Is that more balanced for ya?  'Cause that's what I've always believed.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Paul .. (4.00 / 1)
the problem is .. the rich left doesn't fund that kind of thing .. take someone like Warren Buffett ... do you know why he was always reluctant to give to charity? ... because it was hard to measure results .. it just goes with his analytical mind .. and the reich wing also gets corporate funding .. but what it comes down to is .. the right thinks of it is as an investment .. to garner even greater returns .. they aren't doing it out of the good of their heart .. do you think Sheldon Adelson is willing to spend all that money on Freedom's Watch for nothing?  Not only that .. but I don't think most Democrats in Congress are committed Democrats .. look at people like Feinstein ... or Ben Nelson .. look how they don't stand up for each other .. or how slow they are coming to Obama's defense .. or kicking Lieberman out of the caucus after he's said all the nasty things about Obama .. most of them are career politicians .. in it for the power .. not to fight battles on behalf of the Democratic party

[ Parent ]
That's DEFINTELY A Big Part Of It, I Agree, But... (0.00 / 0)
Some key players on the right have been true believers, and were not looking for ROI (return on investment) at all.  It only took a few key players like that, and once their work was in place, it opened up the space for lots of other folks to make money.  So there always have to be some purely ideological leaders, before the rest of it falls into place.

Likewise, we're not talking charity here.  Forget Buffet for the moment.  What about Soros?  He spends a lot of money on a lot of good things, and doesn't expect a return.  But he does not have a Gramscian perspective.  And he is not alone in this.  Just the richest, most prominent example of the problem in a nutshell.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
ROI (0.00 / 0)
Don't forget that the very wealthy think Republican, conservative rule will help their own families down the line.  They are looking to solidify their power, so it isn't altruistic at all.

The same simply isn't true on the left.

BTW, Buffet put $31 Billion into the Gates Foundation, so I wouldn't claim he's that hesitant to give to charity.


[ Parent ]
Mark ... (0.00 / 0)
I know what he has done in just the past few years ... I am talking about for most of Buffett's life .. if you've read any bios of him .. you'll know that he doesn't part with money easily(not because he's a miser .. but because he doesn't like to waste it) .. heck .. look at the charity he finally gave to .. he's been a very rich man for a long time now .. and it's only in his late 70's .. that he's taken this project on .. and it's only after being brow beaten by Bill Gates and Bono .. heck .. Paul can tell you about the help Buffett has been to the pro-choice movement .. but even that help can be measured(giving money to help cover lawyers fees for a court case .. and one of the lawyers was/is Buffett's buddy Charlie Munger) .. I guess what it comes down to .. there isn't the same ideological fervor on the left .. that there is on the right by the powers in DC .. or the rich

[ Parent ]
Yes, But... (0.00 / 0)
Buffet gave the money to Gates, because he trusted Gates to use it wisely.  He still didn't think he could evaluate results reliably himself, which was the point originally made.

And again--note the role reversal here, I am REPEATEDLY arguing that there's more altruism on the right than others are willing to allow--while what you say about wealth and power consolidation on the right is generally true, there are some notable exceptions, in the form of those who have given large sums to ideologically-devoted foundations that are largely an expression of ideological commitment.

I do not agree at all with their vision, but there are some clear examples where the use of funds could clearly be much more directly tied to protecting family assets and they have chosen a broader expenditure with much less direct benefit to themselves.  This can only be fairly characterized as altruistic in form, if not in the actual results it produces.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
altruism (0.00 / 0)
there are some clear examples where the use of funds could clearly be much more directly tied to protecting family assets and they have chosen a broader expenditure with much less direct benefit to themselves.

But doesn't this assume they don't understand the culture war as you've defined it and where Republicans need to get their votes?

That said, I'm sure you are correct on the altruism in many cases.  Personally, I've yet to meet a "true" Republican.  The conservatives I've met either put up with the religious right or put up with the capitalists.  But I'm sure someone actually believes both sides.


[ Parent ]
He will be like Bill Clinton (4.00 / 1)
with US sitting on his neck.

That's the difference. That's what I believe in, not him but us.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
Bill Clinton (4.00 / 2)
Even Bill Clinton wanted to be different.  Sure, he was DLC and ran on NAFTA, but he tried to fix health care.  Don't Ask, Don't Tell was a compromise to his attempt to get gays accepted in the military, which got thrown back in his face.

All of the pushback on Clinton was from the right while Obama will govern in a different era.  So even if they were literally the same person the results should be different.  Obama will be a huge disappointment to most on this list, but I suspect by the end of the term(s) he'll have accomplished much more than anyone since Johnson.


[ Parent ]
A Very Good Point About The Direction of Pressure (0.00 / 0)
But I think we need more than volume of it.  We need an evolution of forms.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
i doubt he'll accomplish as much as nixon did (0.00 / 0)
on issues like the environment, affirmative action, etc. for precisely the reasons you point to.  but he probably won't bomb cambodia or have to resign facing nearly certain impeachment after having broken many many laws and morals.

[ Parent ]
Nixon Didn't Accomplish Those Things (0.00 / 0)
He just didn't block them.

He had a very progressive Congress--despite a lot of Dixiecrats--and he really didn't care that much about domestic politics, except in terms of what sort of debts he could accumulate to give him a free hand in what he did care about, which was almost entirely foreign policy.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
yeah that was what the "the reasons you point to" was referencing :) (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
I saw that cross post too (4.00 / 4)
And the way to get him is not to search for proof. Put it out there and let him defend.

Do some smug innuendo. But oh no. The folks at kos are talking about searching for chronology, arguing that it could have been unintentionally duplicated, that it wasn't just a single incident in history. His lies convince me (stick,sandal)but it isn't our job to convince. Just put it out there and start laughing at his stupidity for lifting it from Solzhenitsyn. His base would never know the difference. The greatest Christian writer of the 20th century and they haven't read him. But the left has.

Just say its straight out of The Gulag then let him stammer that it happened to me too, it happened to me too!

Proof before we attack back is irrelevant. Got an intuition, then run with it. So what if you are wrong. No one will notice.

Some of the youtube personal ads have been so very creative. We need to fund them ourselves. If Obama is too dumb to pick them up and include them, then he is just too dumb. But we aren't.

The one about the two kinds of bullet proof vests that McCain refused to fund is superb. Wesley Clark knocking down McCain would be great. There have been so many. And great bumper tickers. That's how you reach these people. How do you argue with a bumber sticker, or a 1 minute ad.  


[ Parent ]
Clark would've been great, but... (4.00 / 3)
Obama threw Clark under the bus, instead taking the momentary heat to offer up a robust, persuasive defense of the General's reiteration of Bob Schieffer's questioning.  

You're right, Obama needs to figure away to get this stuff out there, facts be damned, and challenge the foundation of McCain's pretensions to experience and candor.  

Unfortunately, the time before the convention when such arguments can be made then pivoted back from after Denver has passed, and Obama seems to believe the postpartisan tripe he's been peddling.  


[ Parent ]
Phil Gramm is McCains old, old friend (4.00 / 1)
McCain would never turn his back on him--they go way back.  I have never thought there was any relationship between Obama and Clark.  Clark maybe was going to run, then he was a Clinton supporter is my improession.  Obama needs to feel comfortable with people before using them as surrogates, probably because he is senstitive to how far he can go, and I got the feeling Clark was freelancing.   Obama clearly is concerned about outside groups and people going in directions diofferent from what he ic confortable with.  it may be a failing, but I think it stems from his sensitivity about being younger, less familiar, and black.  He didn't want some group to do something in his name that would be pilloried like the "Hitler" ad someone submitted to MoveOn, or even the Betrayus ad.

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.

[ Parent ]
Unfortunately, that is a very important point (0.00 / 0)
Clark never meant anything to Obama.  I believe they only met once at the event a week or two before Clark's infamous comments.  Thus, he was easy to discard.

[ Parent ]
Define your opponent (4.00 / 3)
Team Obama blew a 24K gold opportunity with the Clark debacle.  "Outside groups" exist so that candidates can distance themselves from accusations of negative campaigning, and they've proven remarkably effective.  Meanwhile, while we could be calling McCain's raison d'etre into question, our candidate is being defined as a lightweight pansy who really digs white women.  

The problem is that Obama believes "changing American politics" amounts to the DLC platform plus a dash of Emily Post rather than challenging more directly the Republican paradigm through which Democrats develop and promulgate policy positions.  


[ Parent ]
He could have really made hay with it (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
I'm confused (0.00 / 0)
I agree that the left needs better messaging infrastructure, but are you talking about putting together something similar to the right in terms of a talk-radio echo chamber and lefty book clubs to mimic their operation? Because I think those have been tried but haven't really caught on. Something different is needed that plays to the left's strengths rather than copying the right's tactics, but I'm not sure that we know what that is yet. The web seems to be part of it but doesn't have the respect of the traditional media.

In short, I think that building an infrastructure is a long road that will probably be littered with failed ideas until we hit our stride. I don't necessarily see how that can all change over the course of one year, and why it would all be in Obama's hands.


Nothing Remotely Similar Has Been Tried (4.00 / 1)
The amount of resources the left has committed has been comical.  Back before Disney bought ABC, Jim Hightower had one of the fastest-growing talk radio shows, on ABC.  He was up to 1 million listeners--far short of Limbaugh's 20 million, to be sure, but growing at a very healthy pace.  Disney axed him within a matter of days.

Air America was both under-capitalized from the get-go, and at a distinct disadvantage, because of the existing rightwing radio monopoly.  To do it right, a much larger chunk of capital was needed, along with an aggressive legal strategy to force their way into major markets.  That, and a whole lot more.

The simple fact is that conservative foundations write big checks for multi-year operating budgets with a great deal of flexibility for operations managers to play with.  They focus heavily on policy development, and media outreach.

Progressive foundations write tiny checks for one or two years (often less--6-9 months, say) for specific projects, with reporting requirements that make the cost of grantwriting a significant budget item compared to the size of the grant.  The focus is generally on demonstration projects, producing results--wihch is great--but not on developing policy based on the results produced, and certainly not on media outreach, so that anyone ever hears about it.

The lack of progressive media infrastructure is a direct result of these radically opposite funding models and philosophies.

Like I said, plastic spoon. Nuclear war.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Here's the basic problem (4.00 / 1)
People on the Left are interested in ideas, policy and governing, that is, making changes in the lives of ordinary people, and in the larger world.  They are interested in power for the purpose of carrying out those ideas.  If they pursued power for its own sake or for the purpose of enriching themselves, they'd be Republicans.  

Obama can't help being interested primarily in making people's lives better and restoring America's place in the world, not attacking the right-wing hegemony, because at heart he is a man of the center-Left.  He's genuinely interested in solving problems and governing.  He isn't pursuing power so he and his close friends can further enrich themselves at the expense of everyone else, but to address the country's pressing problems.  

People on the Left like electoral politics, winning elections, organizng etc but only as a means to the end of getting enough control of the government to bring about change.  Who on the Left wants to set up publishing houses to spew filth into the book market or comic exposes (or even real ones) of right-wing figures?  Who weants to tear down other people's lives?  They want to write about health care or alternative energy or how to take over the Democratic Party.

And frankly, I'm glad of that.  I don't want to be a part of a movement that constantly attacks and smears people and puts out a lot of garbage.

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.


You're Combining Two VERY Different Things (4.00 / 1)
The gutter contents of the rightwing media infrastructure is one thing, the infrastructure itself is quite another.

Are they tightly linked to one another?  Of course.

Are they logically connected? No.

In fact, progressives have produced a rather wide array of successful media ventures over the years. (Phil Donohue as the top-rated show at MSNBC before the Iraq War, for example.) What they have not done is build an integrated infrastructure.  And the reason for that is that they simply refuse to recognize the reality of the Gramscian culture war we're in.

There are many other reasons as well, of course.  (I'm always with the multiple causaility and over-determination.) But if we simply, realistically recognized the nature of the culture war we're in, then those other reasons could all be handled.  Because we continue to ignore reality, they stymie us at every turn.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I disagree. How does the infrastructure get built? (0.00 / 0)
The purpose of the right-wing idea factory is to get ideas into the mainstream as a cover for subsequent policies that will enrich the favored few (the predators) at the expense of the rest of us.  The real ideas come out of academia, but they are fluffed and puffed at their think tanks solely for the purpose of making them acceptable and incidently providing employment to third rate writers.  

Lefty people are more serious and want to do ideas for their own sake.  What you want is for some financial angels to subsidize writers on the Left the way the Coorses and Olins and such subsidize the Right.  But those multi-millionaires do so because they know there will be a payoff for them in the form of sweetheart contracts, favorable tax treatment, government contracts or whatever.  The people who fund the Left have to be altruists because there isn't going to be a payoff like that.  At the very least they would have to be convinced that the problems we face like global warming are so serious they are worth an investment of a substantial part of their fortune to sound the alarms.  There so not appear to be a sufficient number of such altruists. And the footsoldiers have to like ratf*cking, like the GOPers do.  That doesn't seem to be the case either.

Dems are more decent people, but not rich and altrusitic enough, and so are never going to have that kind of structure.  We have to do something different, like networking, small donors, civic involvement, whatever.  And Obama is running for President, not trying to remake the cultural map of America.

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.


[ Parent ]
A Couple Of Points Of Disagreement (0.00 / 0)
While I agree with a lot of what you say, two points of disagreement stand out.

First, that there are enough altruists on the left--not a super-abundance, but enough--the problem is what they put their money into.  And it's not long-term progressive infrastructure building.

Second, you wrote:

The real ideas come out of academia, but they are fluffed and puffed at their think tanks solely for the purpose of making them acceptable and incidently providing employment to third rate writers.

Actually, on the right, not so much.  "Intelligent design" didn't come out of academia, they're scheming about how to get it into academia.  Ditto global warming denial, racist crap like The Bell Curve and any number of other pet rightwing narratives.

Rightwing think tanks exist as fact-free alternatives to academia far more than as amplifiers, although they certainly do some of that as well, when and if they can find something they can use.  But if they can't, screw it!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Maybe the Lefties aren't so altruistic (4.00 / 1)
Maybe they want "safe" investments and that's why they put their money where they do.  They aren't going to underwrite revolution.  And some like to maintain a lot of control.  Not real altruists.  They will fund to a point, for example the Ford Foundation used to gove money to the ACLU Reproductive Rights project, or they will fund litigation and education (tax deductible) but not lobbying.  We can't expect funding like the Right gets because theirs is for the purpose of getting an eventual payback while the Left has to be pretty much pure altruism, and even there they want to see results, and this stuff is hard to measure.  We need another model.  

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.

[ Parent ]
i agree with most of this (4.00 / 2)
real social change is structurally unfundable by its very nature.  but i think paul's point and your point are not mutually exclusive - there will be some funders who will fund deep systemic efforts to change (which i would hope would go beyond lobbying), others that will have to be, for lack of a better word--conned or pressured into it--and at the same alternative funding strategies (including abandoning the idea that money = power in terms of social change strategies) need to be explored (for example legal changes and funding for the labor movement to do more organizing).  and there's the war of ideas on what's scary and what's not that funders can be moved on along with society as a whole.

At the same time, the question of what happens with the money that is available is still valid - the question of the projects that are politically viable in terms of funders and the groups/individuals receiving them - is still relevant.  there are places where strategies are simply poor for no ostensible reason other than a lack of creativity imo or a misidentification of problems.


[ Parent ]
In my neon red town (4.00 / 1)
I am around the audience for that all the time. Forget about logical factual talking. Doesn't work about anything, not only political discourse. They are all emotional outbursts of feeling that change direction in fifteen minutes or less. IMHO they seem to have contacted ADD's as they cannot focus on more than three sentences and not at all if it is a complex sentence.

It's why McDonald's is successful, repeat, rinse and repeat. And who who thinks on the left wants to say something over and over and over. But they do. That's the way they talk. It's why they loved McCain last night and not Obama except for the rare one.

McCain is easy. You can get what he says without really listening.

I taught statistics here at university night school. Not to be believed. They didn't know arithmetic, and what's more, didn't want to learn it. Pour the stuff into our heads long enough for us to take an exam on it.

You cannot reach this demographic with facts, logic, rational conversation so forget it. Pearls before swine. It must be the way Jesus reached people: parables, biblical talk, or something like that.

I don't know.  


I'd Like To Direct You To One of My Greatest Hits (4.00 / 1)
Chris frontpaged this at MyDD when I posted it there, with a one-word comment: "Wow!":

Terri Schiavo: We're Too Smart!

It talks with precision about different levels and forms of cognition and political discourse.  From what you just wrote, it sounds like something you should read.  

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Great article (4.00 / 2)
which led me to remember all the Polish posters I saw in Warsaw when it was under military rule in the 80's.

They were expert at saying what they wanted to say but were not allowed to say by putting it in surreal images.

And if Obama ever again does one of those religious set ups like last night he will again weaken his campaign. Hopefully it was not seen by too many. He cannot win on their playing field. Make McCain try to get a football field audience to listen to him.

And why, o why, did he push Clark away.


[ Parent ]
That was an excellent piece (4.00 / 1)
And the Schiavo case went out way because of GOP overreach and because the majority could see how really awful it was for a family to have this most difficult of decisions become a media circus.  It highlighted the hypocrisy at the heart of the GOP machine.  

I don't disagree that better messaging and some infrastructure are important.  But I think that the orientation of people on the center-Left and the Right are just so different that we have to be very careful not to become our enemy, so to speak.  It is kind of like the discussion we had about Andrew Bacevich and Jamie Galbraith and how the consumer state leads to the predator state and Empire.  The differences go so deep that we should be careful not to imitate but to create our own structures.  And of course wew can't take over the media because we don't have the economic power.

First thing might be to stop watching Fox (if anyone does) and demand that MSNBC and CNN put on more liberals, then patronize them.  But writing trash books and then buying them in bulk to create the illusion that they are at the top of the best-seller list is not something we are going to do.

I do like ridicule a whole lot, though.  We have Stewart and Colbert and they have nothing at all like it.  And Obama is trying to build a sense of community.  We will get the youth as a consequence of these two things, and if we can live long enough, maybe the country will change again.

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.


[ Parent ]
Yes, Youth Is Key (4.00 / 1)
I think there's a great deal of potential because of the youth.  But potential needs something to latch onto.

I agree about not simply xeroxing the right.  It's the overall hegemonic function we want to replicate.  But of course it's not just a different content, but a different content as well that we're concerned with.

Critical thinking demands a different process, for one thing.  We don't want an army of robots on our side.  We want an informed citizenry that no army can control.  So I'm in complete agreement with your underlying point.  I just don't see it as an impediment to what I'm talking about.  It's an important caution for the less thoughtful, of course.  But it doesn't negate the need to create an alternative.  Rather it helps inform what it should look like.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Mental Information Processing (4.00 / 3)
Your post:

   *  Sequential thinkers reason "by tracking the world," recognize regularities in sequences of events, but have no abstract understanding of cause and effect.  The world they perceive is a world of appearances that has very little organization to it beyond the recurrence of sequences.

   * Linear thinkers understand cause and effect, limited to a one-direction, one-cause/one-effect model.  The world they perceive has logical order and structure, but the structure is invariably hierarchical, causality flows top-down, and the world is divided neatly into cause and effect.  

   * Systematic thinkers understand multi-faceted, multi-linear cause and effect, with mutual cause-and-effect relationships between different elements.  The world they perceive is primarily a world of systems and relationships, rather than objects.

reminds me of a similar attempt to categorize thought:

  1.  Declarative processing:  Argument by making simple, unconnected points.

  2. Cumulative processing:  Argument by making a number of connected points.

  3. Serial processing:  Argument based on an "if-then" structure, "if A then B and hence C"

  4. Parallel processing:  Several serial arguments are linked together.

Since your list was limited to adults and Declarative processing is, hopefully, limited to children the two seem to line up well.

I'm not going anywhere with this, I just love this kind of stuff.  

But this does tie into the point that everyone is at a different place.  One must make arguments at the level they will be understood and be persuasive.  The hard part is not to let the argument at one level interfere with the argument at another.

This kind of shows how most religions aren't as bad as I often think of them while simultaneously showing they are just as wrong.  Funny, that.


[ Parent ]
Lining Up The Levels (4.00 / 1)
Just to add a further framework of comparison, those three levels of adult reasoning basically line up with Kegan's levels 2, 3 and 4.

As for religions, I was raised Unitarian.  So, in Sunday school we learned about all the world's religions.  Only we learned about them in the best possible light, in terms of their concepts of the divine, their myths, rituals and history.  None of politics, corruption, etc.  We were being taught to appreciate other religions and to learn to see connections between them.

So, to this very day, I don't tend to see religions, per se as bad.  But the social embodiments, well, that's a whole different ballgame.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I love this stuff too but Piaget (0.00 / 0)
has defined the mental development of children and adults and has backed it up with lots of experimental research and observation.

I'm going way back so forgive me: pre-operational thought rings a bell. But there are levels and being able to see from another's point of view is part of his work. I think the experiment is a 3-D of a mountain scene. And the question is what does it look like from x position (not where the subject child is standing or sitting) . I did some work on conservation of number at one time and his work is awesome and fits right in with Paul's four steps in thinking, only it's much better and backed by experimentation so it's not just theoretical.

The conclusions are that most adults are still stuck in pre-operational thought. Well, we know Bush and McCain are there for sure. And it's scary. And then there's Freud and so it gets scarier.


[ Parent ]
Kegan's Work Derives From Piager--As Does Shawn Rosenberg's (0.00 / 0)
The diary I referenced is based on work that comes from a political psychologist, Shawn Rosenberg (no relation), who has a somewhat lengthly discussion of Piaget in his book.  He consciously differs from Piaget in that he argues that development is partially determined by environment, but that is his starting point.

Robert Kegan, who I've referenced various times here--see, for example, "The Political Duality Of Rep and Dem"--was a student of Lawrence Kohlberg's.  Kohlberg took Piaget's work on physical reasoning, and applied it moral reasoning.  Kegan, in turn, took Kohlberg's work, and that of William Perry, who did detailed work on cogntive development of students at Harvard, and expanded it first to psychotherapy, and then developed a genral theory to explain the underlying mechnanism. The essence of his theory is that the background of consciousness at one stage (context or subject) that acts upon the perceived world moves to the foreground (becoming content or object) at the next.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
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