The Shock Doctrine--A Powerful Reframing of "Free Market" Conventional Wisdom

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sat Sep 22, 2007 at 19:13:25 PM EDT


A Study In Reframing And Realignment

Love it or hate it, MoveOn's BetrayUs ad caught people's attention.  It took a stand.  It said something deeply contradictory to the conventional wisdom. Powerful reversals of conventional wisdom are absolutely vital for brining about a political realignment.

Here's another powerful example-a short film (just under 7 minutes) summarizing the argument in Naomi Klein's new book, The Shock Doctrine: The Rise of Disaster Capitalism.  In it, Klein argues that "free market" ideology is so wildly unpopular that it has only been possible to impose it by force, when the political will to resist is disabled by shock.  She draws a direct parallel to the development of shock treatment, and its exploration by the CIA as a tool for brainwashing and reprogramming.

The Shock Doctrine Short Film
A Film by Alfonso Cuarón and Naomi Klein, directed by Jonás Cuarón.



Discussion on the flip.

Paul Rosenberg :: The Shock Doctrine--A Powerful Reframing of "Free Market" Conventional Wisdom
What's most striking to me about this short film is how good it feels to see such a compact, cogent presentation of a progressive perspective.  Now, imagine if we had our own tv network, like the right does with Fox.  Can you imagine what it would be like to see these kinds of messages not just on a daily basis, but hourly?

I want to have a discussion here about Klein's ideas without expecting everyone to have read her just-published book, and so I'm going to refer to her interview [transcript and audio/video stream] on Democracy Now! last week.  I'll have plenty to say about her ideas, but I'm going to save most of them for the comments, at least for now.

Here's how Democracy Now! host Amy Goodman introduced the program:

Pinochet's coup in Chile, the massacre in Tiananmen Square, the collapse of the Soviet Union, September 11th 2001, the war on Iraq, the Asian tsunami, and Hurricane Katrina. Award-winning investigative journalist Naomi Klein brings together all of these world-changing events in her new book, "The Shock Doctrine: The Rise of Disaster Capitalism." In her first national broadcast interview since the publication of "The Shock Doctrine," Klein joins us in our firehouse studio for the hour. Klein writes, "The history of the contemporary free market was written in shocks." She argues that "Some of the most infamous human rights violations of the past thirty five years which have tended to be viewed as sadistic acts carried out by anti-democratic regimes, were in fact either committed with the deliberate intent of terrorizing the public or actively harnessed to prepare the ground for the introduction of radical free-market reforms."

Economist Milton Friedman once said, "Only a crisis produces real change. When that crisis occurs, the actions that are taken depend on the ideas that are lying around. " Naomi Klein examines some of what she considers the most dangerous ideas-Friedmanite economics and expose how catastrophic events are both extremely profitable to corporations and have also allowed governments to push through what she calls "disaster capitalism."

Klein writes in the introduction to "The Shock Doctrine" that "The history of the contemporary free market was written in shocks." She argues that "Some of the most infamous human rights violations of the past thirty five years which have tended to be viewed as sadistic acts carried out by anti-democratic regimes, were in fact either committed with the deliberate intent of terrorizing the public or actively harnessed to prepare the ground for the introduction of radical free-market reforms."

In the discussion of my previous diary, Valatan asked:

how is this strategy any different than the means used by FDR to establish the welfare state in the first place?  He used a vast national crisis to create the modern system of social services.  I have a feeling that the American people probably would have been equally amenable to a megalomaniac like Huey Long, had he become President.  Similarly, I doubt that LBJ is able to get Medicare or all of the civil rights legislation passed without something like the Kennedy assassination hanging over the nation's head.

I answered at some length here, but I bring it up again now, because it can help sharpen our sense of what Klein is and is not saying.  It is, after all, well-known that major policy changes tend to come about in response to crises.  "If it ain't broke don't fix it," has as much currency in politics as anywhere else.  So Klein is not arguing that policymaking in response to crisis is bad.  Rather, she is arguing against the false impression that free market ideas are natural, obvious, "self-evident" and beyond question.  Quite to the contrary, the only way these notions have gained a foothold is via the use of force and exploitation of chaos and tragedy.  And it is this contrast, between the pseudo-naturalism of free market ideology and the historical reality of its reliance on force that Klein has focused on.

Here's the beginning of the interview itself:

AMY GOODMAN: It's very good to have you with us. Why don't you start off by talking about exactly what you consider to be the shock doctrine?

NAOMI KLEIN: Well, the shock doctrine, like all doctrines, is a philosophy of power. It's a philosophy about how to achieve your political and economic goals. And this is a philosophy that holds that the best way, the best time, to push through radical free-market ideas is in the aftermath of a major shock. Now, that shock could be an economic meltdown. It could be a natural disaster. It could be a terrorist attack. It could be a war. But the idea, as you just saw in the film, is that these crises, these disasters, these shocks soften up whole societies. They discombobulate them. People lose their bearings. And a window opens up, just like the window in the interrogation chamber. And in that window, you can push through what economists call "economic shock therapy." That's sort of extreme country makeovers. It's everything all at once. It's not, you know, one reform here, one reform there, but the kind of radical change that we saw in Russia in the 1990s, that Paul Bremer tried to push through in Iraq after the invasion. So that's the shock doctrine.

And it's not claiming that right-wingers in a contemporary age are the only people who have ever exploited crisis, because this idea of exploiting a crisis is not unique to this particular ideology. Fascists have done it. State communists have done it. But this is an attempt to better understand the ideology that we live with, the dominant ideology of our time, which is unfettered market economics.

Of course, fascism and communism were both philosophies of social struggle, so it was entirely consistent with their philosophies that such means should be used.  But the free market ideology is opposed to the notion of political struggle, particularly the notion of coercion.  It claims to be all about freedom, and utterly opposed to coercion of any sort, except for the bare minimum needed to keep its view of freedom alive.  It is this internal contradiction that Klein is going after.

The interview continues:

AMY GOODMAN: Explain who Milton Friedman is, who you take on in a big way in this book.

NAOMI KLEIN: Well, I take on Milton Friedman because he is the symbol of the history that I am trying to challenge. Milton Friedman died last year. He died in 2006. And when he died, we heard him described in very lavish tributes as probably the most important intellectual of the post-war period, not just the most important economist, but the most important intellectual. And I think that a strong argument can be made for that. This was an adviser to Thatcher, to Nixon, to Reagan, to the current Bush administration. He tutored Donald Rumsfeld in the early days of his career. He advised Pinochet in the 1970s. He also advised the Communist Party of China in the key reform period in the late 1980s. So he had enormous influence. And I was talking to somebody the other day who described him as the Karl Marx for capitalism. And I think that's not a bad description, although I'm sure Marx wouldn't have liked it very much. But he was really a popularizer of these ideas.

He had a vision of society, in which the only acceptable role for the state was to enforce contracts and to protect borders. Everything else should be completely left to the market, whether education, national parks, the post office; everything that could be performed at a profit should be. And he really saw, I guess, shopping-buying and selling-as the highest form of democracy, as the highest form of freedom. And his best-known book was Capitalism and Freedom.

So, you know, when he died last year, we were all treated to a retelling of the official version of how these radical free-market ideas came to dominate the globe, how they swept through the former Soviet Union, Latin America, Africa, you know, how these ideas triumphed over the past thirty-five years. And I was so struck, because I was in the middle of writing this book, that we never heard about violence, and we never heard about crises, and we never heard about shocks. I mean, the official story is that these ideas triumphed because we wanted them to, that the Berlin Wall fell and people demanded their Big Macs along with their democracy. And, you know, the official story of the rise of this ideology goes through Margaret Thatcher saying, "There is no alternative," to Francis Fukuyama saying, "History has ended. Capitalism and freedom go hand in hand."

And so, what I'm trying to do with this book is tell that same story, the key junctures where this ideology has leapt forward, but I'm reinserting the violence, I'm reinserting the shocks, and I'm saying that there is a relationship between massacres, between crises, between major shocks and body blows to countries and the ability to impose policies that are actually rejected by the vast majority of the people on this planet.

What Klein is doing is actually quite similar, in a way, to Howard Zinn's A People's History of the United States--she is reinserting the history of struggle that has been expunged from the official texts.  And in this case, the official texts are holy books of economic doctrine telling how we all must live.  That, for example, we must have health care insurance,  even though the insurance may prevent us from getting the actual health care itself.  If we are to successfully challenge this orthodoxy, the knowledge of its blood-drenched history is an invaluable resource for us.

But above all, Klein is reminding us that we live in history, that history makes us, and that we make history as well.  The systems we live in are a matter of choice-even if we chose to pretend otherwise.  Demystifying the old order is an integral part of the work of building a new one.  This is how realignments happen, in part.  It is how slavery ended.  It is how the welfare state was created, and with it a middle class without precedent in history.  New visions make new worlds.  But old ones must be seen clearly, too, in order to move beyond them.

Tags: Democracy Now, Naomi Klein, The Shock Doctrine, Realignment, Milton Friedman, (All Tags)
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Wow (4.00 / 1)
I just watched that clip. It is really fascinating. I don't even know what to say about it. But as for the left Fox. I'd like to point you to GoLeft.tv and therealnews.com both are new progressive video sites. The Real News is sort of a international Democracy Now. And GoLeft.tv is sortov Air America TV. I just thought I'd let you know about them in case you hadn't heard of them.

Thanks (0.00 / 0)
I have heard of them, but being such a print nerd, I've yet to check them out.  This must change!

Now all they need is the infusion of a couple hundred million cash investment to make them household names and part of every basic cable deal as well.


[ Parent ]
Check them out for sure (0.00 / 0)
Real News has some great stuff. It's a nonprofit member based organization which lets it take on government and corporation. So it's funding is hard. But if we all chip in we can give it enough funding to do it's work. Check out it's stuff about Blackwater.

[ Parent ]
shocked (0.00 / 0)
I'm sorry but that video is one of the worst bits of propaganda I've seen in a while. It has more of the characteristics of a conspiracy theory, tying a bunch of threads of history into one comprehensive explanation, than of an argument for a political theory.

I believe Naomi Klein's approach here does more to discredit progressivism than advance it. The video reduces the credibility of what may be a reasonable argument about the coercive aspects of capitalism.


Of Course It's Not An Argument For A Political Theory (4.00 / 1)
It's an argument against a political theory.

I am soooo sick of this sort knee-jerk attack on the most innovative progressive thinking.  Wow!  It's emotionally engaging!  It must be suspect!

If it's so atrocious you ought to be able to make a coherent argument about what's wrong with it, rather than just hurl vague accusations.

As someone who's been writing about and criticizing conspiricism since the 1980s, I don't see anything in that film that deserves to be called "a conspiracy theory."  What exactly do you have in mind?


[ Parent ]
It is all about the ideas lying around.... (0.00 / 0)
I see what both of you are saying.

I take Souvarine to mean that the video throws together flooding and tsunami with CIA's methods, with babies crying and 'scary-looking' artwork. It feels a bit sensational--but then again any film trailer is and must be. If it gets people's attention--more power to it.

I side with Rosenberg and Klein. Here is why:

Economist Milton Friedman once said, "Only a crisis produces real change. When that crisis occurs, the actions that are taken depend on the ideas that are lying around.

This quote comes from your piece above. Klein argues that these ideas have little power are made more powerful when a shock comes along and opens a window to let in the ideas which are lying around.

This is absolutely true. This is why the Right has been so successful. This is why Reagan was so successful-- the shock of the Vietnam years had not been erased by Carter, and so Reagan could easily sell American a bright and shiny 'morning in America.'

9-11 was obviously a shock, and I think its crest rose and broke just after 04, when the nation began to wake up and Bush's ratings began to fall.

This is also why groups which fight to reframe public discourse and thinking along progressive lines are as crucial at this moment as winning elections. 

In short- we need progressive ideas lying around in full view.

An example of such a group is Rockridge Nation headed by George Lakoff- the man who gave us Don't Think of an Elephant. They also have a good blog.

Their description is:
Rockridge promotes the effective articulation of progressive values. We do this by monitoring public debate and suggesting both long-term and short-term options for framing that offer a progressive perspective.

www.rockridgeinstitute.org



A party that claims government can't work, can't possibly run a government that does work. --Daily Kos


[ Parent ]
Actually, I Plan To Write About Two Of Lakoff's Frames In This Series (0.00 / 0)
Lakoff has written some very good stuff about the MoveOn Betray Us ad, building on his 2003 article, "Betrayal of Trust".  So I was planning to write about that, and about his "Power Grab" frame as well.

There is an obvious family resemblance between what Klein is highlighting with the The Shock Doctrine and what Lakoff is highlighting with the "Power Grab" frame.  It makes perfect sense that conservatives would embrace such behavior, since they are all about fighting evil, which means that all is fair (outing CIA agents, whatever).


[ Parent ]
Power Grab & California Recall of Davis? (4.00 / 1)
I assume you're referring to the recall of Gov. Davis. That is an excellent example of a power grab and a shock doctrine ploy all in one place. The Bethany McLean documentary, Enron: Smartest Guys in the Room gets into that episode, although I don't think they explicitly mention these frames, the film absolutely exposed them.. the collapse of the power grid caused by Enron, a company funding right-wing politicians like GW Bush, the recall of the Democrat, and the installation of the Terminator.

A party that claims government can't work, can't possibly run a government that does work. --Daily Kos

[ Parent ]
The Power-Grab Frame Has Much Broader Application (4.00 / 1)
That's where Lakoff developed it. And you're absolutely right when you say:

That is an excellent example of a power grab and a shock doctrine ploy all in one place.

But I was thinking in broader, more systemic terms.  The power-grab frame pretty much sums up the GOP's basic modus operandi, for example, as described in the book Off-Center: The Republican Revolution & the Erosion of American Democracy by Jacob S. Hacker and Paul Pierson.

In the aftermath of the 2004 election, I wrote several diaries at DKos about how the issue in Ohio was not whether the Kerry had actually won the election, as Kos assumed, but rather it was about the rightwing power grab, as evidenced by the whole widespread pattern of behavior there.

So, it has very broad applicability, as far as I'm concerned.  The US Attorneys scandal, far-flung as it may be, is simply another example.


[ Parent ]
Positive repercussions (0.00 / 0)
She may expand on this further in the book, but some of her description sounds awfully cynical.

NAOMI KLEIN: But these techniques don't only work on individuals; they can work on whole societies: a collective trauma, a war, a coup, a natural disaster, a terrorist attack puts us all into a state of shock. And in the aftermath, like the prisoner in the interrogation chamber, we, too, become childlike, more inclined to follow leaders who claim to protect us

I wonder how she would look at the civil rights movement, or a  riot. This induces a type of shock to which leaders react.

The reaction might be negative and further enforcement of destructive capitalism i.e. Katrina, or might positive, i.e. the civil rights movement, the new deal etc.

She doesn't seem to leave much room for this- or perhaps she does in the book.

I am trying to figure out how a public uprising might look in this frame.

A party that claims government can't work, can't possibly run a government that does work. --Daily Kos


[ Parent ]
I Think You're Missing A Couple Of Key Points In The Argument (0.00 / 0)
First of all, as I wrote above:

Klein is not arguing that policymaking in response to crisis is bad.  Rather, she is arguing against the false impression that free market ideas are natural, obvious, "self-evident" and beyond question.  Quite to the contrary, the only way these notions have gained a foothold is via the use of force and exploitation of chaos and tragedy.  And it is this contrast, between the pseudo-naturalism of free market ideology and the historical reality of its reliance on force that Klein has focused on.

So her focus is not the phenomena of social/economic/political shock per se.  Rather, her focus is how such phenomena have been exploited by an ideology that cannot gain democratic consent in any other way, other than exploiting crisis.

One can, of course, argue that this is somehow similar to the Civil Rights Movement.  After all, for a very long time a solid majority of whites would not consent to the goals of racial equality in even the most superficial ways.  However, there was a fundamental disconnect in the logic of those who claimed to uphold America's values and segregation at the same time.  And it was the insight of men like James Lawson and Martin Luther King that creative non-violent action could be an effective tool for focring people to confront these contradictions.  While this was surely very shocking to the powers that be, and especially to the White Southern society, it was a very far cry indeed from the unacknowledged reliance on shocks that debilitate cognitive function, as opposed to liberating it.


[ Parent ]
Gotcha... (0.00 / 0)
and I was not meaning to equate shock torture and public uprising. I hope that is not how it sounds.


A party that claims government can't work, can't possibly run a government that does work. --Daily Kos

[ Parent ]
fallacy (4.00 / 1)
The video makes an argument by association: torture is evil, the CIA is evil, shock therapy is evil, Jeffrey Sacks used the term shock therapy to describe free market reforms so the free market is evil.

That's not a compelling argument, even if the Abu Ghraib sound and pictures are emotionally engaging. The video insults its audience, it assumes, a la Drew Westen, that the emotional response to these violent images juxtaposed with pictures of Milton Friedman will overcome rational skepticism of the claims.


[ Parent ]
Evil? (4.00 / 1)
I don't recall the word evil ever being used.

I do recall statistics being shown the suffering and loss of life which occurred. Free market reforms were the result of the shocks; they themselves were not the shocks, although they then had adverse effects on many of the people, disabling them further.

A party that claims government can't work, can't possibly run a government that does work. --Daily Kos


[ Parent ]
evil (0.00 / 0)
Yeah, right, Abu Ghraib is a completely neutral event in our nation's history, it has no moral content. Same with torture generally, it's just another instrument of policy, no more evil than a shark.

These discussions would be more productive if people weren't so disingenuous, but I suppose that is the attraction of this video.


[ Parent ]
Excuse Me, But You're The One Being Disingenuous Here (0.00 / 0)
You were the one who introduced the characterization "evil."  While everyone here would agree with the characterization in general, that's a far cry from agreeing that that was the specific logic of the film's presentation--which is, after all, the issue in dispute.  You haven't even attempted to make an argument to that effect.

You simply assume that it's enough for you to lay down the law, and everyone else has to accept your characterization.  Well, we don't.  Make your argument if you want to persuade people.  You're the one advancing a claim here.  The burden of proof is on you.


[ Parent ]
Not what I said. (4.00 / 1)
I never argued that anything was morally neutral. I can't decide if you're willfully trying to be provocative or willfully missing the point here. I even began by trying to understand your point of view. I do not see you stopping to understand mine.

A party that claims government can't work, can't possibly run a government that does work. --Daily Kos

[ Parent ]
willfull (0.00 / 0)
I am being provocative, but if I am missing your point I am doing so honestly. Let me restate my argument and re-address your point. The video juxtaposes images of electro-shock therapy and cartoon re-enactments of Abu Ghraib with Milton Friedman. While it does not use the word "evil" the intent of those images is clear, they depict evil acts, and the ominous soundtrack drives the point home. The statistics don't come into play until 2/3rds of the way into the video. When you said "I don't recall the word evil ever being used" I thought you were being disingenuous by latching on to the absence of a word rather than the meaning of the images. Do you disagree that the images are intended to depict evil?

[ Parent ]
You Seem To Object To The Fact It's A Film, Not An Essay (0.00 / 0)
Boo-hoo!

This is precisely the sort of literalist, anti-creative prejudice that has been strangling progressive politics for the past 30-some years.

If you're old enough, I bet you didn't like ACT-UP, either.


[ Parent ]
old enough (0.00 / 0)
I am old enough, and I liked ACT-UP quite a bit. Their actions were far more effective and politically astute than this video.

[ Parent ]
the point is that you don't understand (0.00 / 0)
the visual art or the way it which media works. juxtaposition is used to produce certain emotional truths rather than literal representations of actual truth. it is meanrt to emotionally influence the viewer. you see it all the time from the right,b ut it has become so common place you don't even realize how the symbolism works on you. the video maybe over the top, but that doesn't mean what its trying to do is per se wrong. its what film does and is suppose to do.

[ Parent ]
emotional (0.00 / 0)
Actually I discussed the video's emotional appeal in my comment titled "fallacy". I'm perfectly familiar with the Republican's use of emotional appeals to food, turf and sex since the '80s. Democrats and our progressive allies have our own emotional appeals, but they are generally far more effective than this one.

[ Parent ]
uhm (4.00 / 1)
thats not a matter of just your opinion. seriously thats not going to be something you yourself can prove by saying that. its a little like someone saying " i hate that film, but millions of others go to see it." nice to know, but irrelevant to its impact.

[ Parent ]
It's Not About "Evil" (0.00 / 0)
You are seriously misrepresenting the video and its argument.  First off, it's not about some ill-defined "evil," it's about a specific set of shared beliefs about how to change human identity, values and allegiances--not to mention the unquestioned right to do so.  Second, it's not an argument by association.  It is an argument by isomorphism.  You have two independent lines of thought in different fields that have certain elements and their inter-relationships in common. There is not only a direct parallel between the ideas in the two fields--remaking individual personal identity and remaking collective socio-economic identity--there is also an historical convergence as the work of the two fields converged quite dramatically in Iraq.

From the Democracy Now! interview:

NAOMI KLEIN: Well, I start the book looking at the two laboratories for the shock doctrine. As I said, I look at different forms of shock. One is the economic shock, and another is body shock, shocks to people. And they aren't always there, but they have been there at key junctures. This is the shock of torture.

So one of the laboratories for this doctrine was the University of Chicago in the 1950s, when all of these Latin American economists were trained to become economic shock therapists. Another one-and, you know, this isn't some sort of grand conspiracy that it was all planned, but there was another school, which served as a different kind of shock laboratory, which was McGill University in the 1950s. McGill University was ground zero for the experiments that the CIA funded in order to understand how to-basically how to torture.

I mean, it was called "mind control" at the time or "brainwashing" at the time, but now we understand, thanks to the work of people like Alfred McCoy, who has been a guest on your program, that actually what was being researched in the 1950s under the MK-ULTRA program, when there were these experiments in extreme electroshock, LSD, PCP, extreme sensory deprivation, sensory overload, that actually what was being developed was the manual that we can now see at use in Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib. This is a manual for unmaking personalities, for total regression of personalities, and creating that window of opportunity where people are very suggestible, as we saw in the film.

McCoy's interview on Democracy Now! can be found here.

Of course all this sounds like pretty far out stuff.  But the CIA's record of involvement has been known about for decades.  They actually did this stuff.  It wasn't just something that Chris Carter made up for The X-Files.


[ Parent ]
CIA, torture, conspiracy (0.00 / 0)
I think you are mistaking my point, I'm not arguing that the CIA has not engaged in torture and experimented with what you term "far out stuff." I'm somewhat familiar with the CIA's history, and specifically with the Phoenix program in Viet Nam, where some of these interrogation and counter-insurgency theories were put to the test. They discovered that torture was an ineffective interrogation technique, it does not supply reliable information.

Now, you seem to be arguing that what we did at Abu Ghraib was not about counter-insurgency at all but was really about remaking Iraqi society. And that the breaking down of personalities was parallel to the whole-scale privatization driven by Republican party hacks in the green zone. And further that Bush's actions in Iraq are a natural outgrowth and indictment of FDR's liberal project of spreading democracy and capitalism around the globe through international institutions.

I disagree, I think the failures and, frankly, the evil results of Bush's policies in Iraq are the fault of George Bush, Dick Cheney and the circle of people around him. The torture at Abu Ghraib was not some outgrowth of a broken system or "a few bad apples", it was personally ordered by Donald Rumsfeld. The wrecking of Iraq's economy was not called for by a liberal economic theory of free trade, it was directed by Republican ideologues serving particular corporate interests.


[ Parent ]
Off The Tracks (4.00 / 1)
Now, you seem to be arguing that what we did at Abu Ghraib was not about counter-insurgency at all but was really about remaking Iraqi society.

Well, it's not either/or, but yes, of course, it was about remaking Iraqi society.  That's sort of the whole point of the neocon fantasy--making the whole world over in our image, except that they're the ones throwing flowers at us.  But aside from that, we're all the same.

And that the breaking down of personalities was parallel to the whole-scale privatization driven by Republican party hacks in the green zone.

That's Klein's point (certainly not her only one), and it's a good one.

And further that Bush's actions in Iraq are a natural outgrowth and indictment of FDR's liberal project of spreading democracy and capitalism around the globe through international institutions.

Now they're you've gone completely off the tracks. What you seem to have missed is the crucial point that Milton Friedman is not Maynard Keynes.  I know this is confusing to some folks, who think that all economists are alike, but it's not really true.

As Yogi Berra famously said, "You could look it up!"

I disagree, I think the failures and, frankly, the evil results of Bush's policies in Iraq are the fault of George Bush, Dick Cheney and the circle of people around him. The torture at Abu Ghraib was not some outgrowth of a broken system or "a few bad apples", it was personally ordered by Donald Rumsfeld. The wrecking of Iraq's economy was not called for by a liberal economic theory of free trade, it was directed by Republican ideologues serving particular corporate interests.

Wooops!  Looks like you're the conspiracy theorist, after all. Blaming a small cabal of men instead of looking for structural/systemic causes.

I'm afraid that you seem to have missed something crucial in the history of international relations.  The Bretton Woods system was based on accepting the legitimacy of the welfare state, and the traditional framework of understanding trade dating back to Ricardo.  All this was changed by the multiple shocks--but especially the currency and the oil shocks--of the 1970s.  This is the time period in which the rules of the IMF/World Bank changed drastically, and its from here on in that Friedman's ideology was imposed on the world, gradually blowing back to the USA.

The fact that you naively equate the international system of today with FDR and Bretton Woods shows a fundamental misunderstanding of history.  Your problem with Klein is, at bottom, that you simply don't know the history she's talking about.  Or that you fail to grasp its significance.

Prior to the mid-70s, there was not systematic demand that developing countries privatize everything in sight. From around 1980 on, that demand was virtually ubiguitous. Thus what you call a "libeal" international trade policy was actually two distinct policy eras.  The first was more properly called a liberal/social democratic mix, while the second was, as the Latin Americans so rightly call it a neo-[19th Century]liberal policy.  And Klein is writing about how the ideology of that second era has been imposed on people around the world.


[ Parent ]
lost (0.00 / 0)
Now you've lost me completely. I argued that the video has "characteristics of a conspiracy theory", highlighting Friedman. I can't tell from this post if you agree that the video claims that "Freidman and his disciples" conspired to use crisis to produce real change or that you disagree. In part of this post you seem to argue that torture at Abu Ghraib is both structural/systemic and the result of the neocon fantasy.

I might understand better if you told me what structure or system you are referring to. I have perhaps mistakenly assumed you meant the capitalist system. I am also having trouble understanding how the torture at Abu Ghraib was "about remaking Iraqi society", even in the twisted minds of the neo-cons.


[ Parent ]
Progress, Possibly??? (0.00 / 0)
Now you've lost me completely. I argued that the video has "characteristics of a conspiracy theory", highlighting Friedman.

Simply identifying people who play major roles in historical developments is not a conspiracy theory. If it were, then the vast majority of popular history books would have to be reclassified.

I can't tell from this post if you agree that the video claims that "Freidman and his disciples" conspired to use crisis to produce real change or that you disagree.

I agree. Klein agrees.  We just don't think they succeeded because of their secret decoder rings.  We think it was because of a complex set of forces which are largely publicly observable, not hidden away in some crypt somewhere.

In part of this post you seem to argue that torture at Abu Ghraib is both structural/systemic and the result of the neocon fantasy.

There's no contradiction.  The neocon fantasy is an emergent property of the structure of late capitalism.

I might understand better if you told me what structure or system you are referring to. I have perhaps mistakenly assumed you meant the capitalist system.

Provided you understand that when I say "capitalist system" what I have in mind is not some abstract theoretical entity, but rather the historically precise ding an sich.

I am also having trouble understanding how the torture at Abu Ghraib was "about remaking Iraqi society", even in the twisted minds of the neo-cons.

Well, that's a good thing.  Having trouble understanding it means you're not suitably depraved.


[ Parent ]
imperialism (0.00 / 0)
I figured we'd end up in the neighborhood of imperialism as an expression of capitalism. One quibble, we cannot know historical capitalism, as it is in the world, precisely.

I think I've mentioned this to you before, and at some point I should justify this, I don't think that imperialism is the appropriate framework for understanding the world now. That is the error of the neo-cons.


[ Parent ]
See her article in the current Harper's (0.00 / 0)
Naomi Klein has a very persuasive countertheory here.  She begins the Harper's article talking about the difference between the Green Zone in Baghdad and the rest of the city/country, the "Red Zone".  The Green Zone is the ultimate gated community, and it is this metaphor she uses for the article--that we are moving, partly through "disaster capitalism", to a situation where the rich have everything they want and are protected by walls and everyone else is left to fend for themelves in a "you're on your own" economy. The "free Market" is the means to remove the fetters so that the rich can get richer, and we are all told that it is natural when it is really the product of political choices.

She also talks about disasters as creating situations ripe for social engineering--think Katrina and the "new New Orleans"--and for pushing through "reforms" that wouldn't otherwise happen.  I found the article, which is less sensational than the film, very persuasive.  Seen in this light the crazy antics of the Bremer years in Baghdad make a kind of crazy sense, although they were a total failure in terms of remaking Iraq.

Think about global warming in this light.  Wonder why the heads of oil companies aren't really worried?  They plan to end their days in a gated commmunity with everything they want no matter what happens to the Earth.  Hopefully they mean Dubai, which seems destined to go under what with the most recent estimates of sea level rise from the Greenland melting.

I think she is really on to something here.

And the difference with Roosevelt is that he meant to help the greatest number, while disaster capitalism helps only the few.

"Do not forget that a people deserves the regime it is willing to endure." ----The White Rose


[ Parent ]
Octavia Butler Wrote A Rendition of This (0.00 / 0)
in her books Parable of the Sower and Parable of the Talents.

It is, unfortunately, a very believable future.


[ Parent ]
Free Market Ideology (0.00 / 0)
Don't you think that Milton Friedman, or at least a number of other free market proponents like Murray Rothbard, would oppose any top-down imposition of a "free market," especially one lacking democracy?  The whole idea of a central government, a small group of oligarchs, making the decisions on how to structure the economy would certainly be opposed by, say, Hayek. 

What we seem to have is a Power Elite, as described by New Left academics, that is imposing a corporate state from the top down under the propaganda of freedom and liberty.


No, I Don't Think So (0.00 / 0)
You obviously believe the theory at some level if you believe that this crew would oppose something that they have all pretty much turned a blind eye towards.  Klein is giving us a history lesson on why the theory shouldn't be believed.

But, actually, there's nothing the least bit surprising about this.  Democracy has been opposed to laissez-faire economics for a very long time now.  The reason is simple: people don't like laissez-faire economics because it's inherently destructive.

Not in theory, of course.  But in theory Santa Claus has a faster-than-light team of reindeer.  Yet, somehow, JPL, NASA, even Stephen Hawkins, not impressed.


[ Parent ]
Blind Eye? (0.00 / 0)
Murray Rothbard was very critical of the imposition of "capitalism" by central authority, it gave rise to his flirtations with the New Left.  As for Hayek, he died in the early 1990s.  But there have been many supporters of the free market who are very critical of American foreign policy, the actions of the IMF, and other neo-liberal institutions, such as the paleos like Lew Rockwell.

Milton Friedman is probably the one that could be criticized the most for turning a blind eye, but Klein is mischaracterizing his views.  Friedman supported a negative income tax or some form of citizen's dividend providing for a base income, educational support for education through vouchers, a central bank, and government mandates for the purchase of health insurance (like Romney and Hillary).  He is not the anti-government zealot that Klein and others make him out to be.

I think that Klein is entirely off in his view of who really are advocates of a free market, and the Power Elite that merely uses the propaganda of a free market to justify their juntas.


[ Parent ]
friedman (4.00 / 1)
Vouchers for education are dog-whistle politics for privatization of education. Which makes sense because Friedman would like all government services to be privatized.

The fallacy of the free market is that it will ever remain free for an extended period of time. Capital will accumulate and rigidities will for form over time as corporations become more and more powerful. I fail to see any historical evidence that shows at what point laissez-faire capitalism does a good job at providing for the common good. And that's the problem with all neo-classical economists. They believe in theory like it's the gospel truth. But it's very hard to find any actual examples where organizing a society around such principles in a modern industrialized society has led to anything but extreme poverty and inequalities in society.

But hey, enjoy your freedom to live in misery. 


[ Parent ]
Means to an End (4.00 / 1)
If Friedman fully believes in the free market theory, than he would be okay with it being put into place from the top-down. In the end it brings about a so-called free market which is what he wants. Once a free market is there, the central government is dismantled, i.e. privatizing school and health care.

Moreover conservatives use this 'propaganda of freedom and liberty' all the time. The call it the Clean Skies act, when it really enables polluters.

They call it a free-market when it really empowers the wealthy elite and keeps them in place.

A party that claims government can't work, can't possibly run a government that does work. --Daily Kos


[ Parent ]
Maybe Friedman (0.00 / 0)
Friedman may support a top-down imposition of his free market theory, he's always been seen as an outsider among more radical capitalists and anarchists because of his pro-government views. 

Corporate apologists are not only vulnerable from those who, like Klein, criticize them for their anti-democratic views, but given their actions (privatization and appropriation of resources that the state typically has illegal claims to) they are equally vulnerable for criticism of their anti-free market views.

For instance, corrupt Third World countries that appropriate land from small farmers for their big schemes.  Say, a tropical nation deciding that it can modernize by forcing the farmers off their land and changing from a subsistence agriculture to commercial agriculture for export.  Often pushed by corporate apologists, but neither democratic nor free market. 


[ Parent ]
The Only Way A "Free Market" Can Get Started Is By Stealing Land (4.00 / 1)
Look up the British Acts of Enclosure.  That's how they got the Industrial Revolution started--kicked all the peasants off their land.  Then, here in America, we kicked all the Native Americans off their land.  Canada, South Africa, Austrailia, New Zealand, ditto, ditto, ditto, ditto.

No theft, no "free market."  It's really just that simple.


[ Parent ]
Right (0.00 / 0)
So on the one hand you have people talking about a "free market" but doing things, like the Acts of Enclosure, that appropriate property from those who have a claim to it based on their labor.  And you're conceding to these folks that they are really the true advocates of a "free market." 

And on the other hand you have people who talk about a "free market" and are critical of such actions.  And you . . . ignore them?


[ Parent ]
Yes, Precisely! (0.00 / 0)
In the same way that I ignore people who write PhD theses about the physics of Lord of the Rings.

[ Parent ]
Why? (0.00 / 0)
There was a time were people like Hayek were highly respected.

[ Parent ]
And Still Is (0.00 / 0)
I'm both pro-Hayek and pro-Tolkien.

Why aren't you?


[ Parent ]
Not Sure You Need Klein to Make Your Argument (0.00 / 0)
Klein's thesis is interesting, but I don't think it is crucial to your argument. And her thesis sounds like a conspiracy theory even if it is not.

I don't know your full argument since you haven't made it yet, and I haven't read Klein's book yet. Still, it doesn't seem like Klein's thesis is critical.

I think you will do better to just focus on how the power elite uses endless propaganda to convince us that There Is No Alternative (TINA). Or how capitalists have used Pinkertons and thugs to break unions, and Enron-style manipulation to destroy real competition.

To me, all these been the important means for forcing acceptance of oligopoly/crony capitalism.

Perhaps it is because we've been softened up by crises, but that is just one part of the larger mix.

I think Klein's book will help a lot of people understand our history, but I don't think her thesis is crucial to your argument or to how we overcome our oppression/exploitation.


I'm Really Curious (0.00 / 0)
Why you say:

her thesis sounds like a conspiracy theory even if it is not.

I promise not to attack you for whatever you say.  I really do want to understand why some people react this way.

As for why Klein is important to me, it's simple:  I think she's articulated a compelling narrative.  You may think that

you will do better to just focus on how the power elite uses endless propaganda to convince us that There Is No Alternative (TINA). Or how capitalists have used Pinkertons and thugs to break unions, and Enron-style manipulation to destroy real competition.

But people have been doing all that for a very long time now, and it's obviously not enough.  My whole point in talking about realignment is that it creates a new political order, and it does that in part by re-contextualizing the old political order as the old political order.  That doesn't mean throwing everything out, willy-nilly.  But it does mean being alive to the value of new ways to articulate values, needs, identity, purpose, etc.

Plus, this really is a fresh take.  It's not just the same old same old.  It's an arresting way of revealing the practical contradictions of free market ideology.


[ Parent ]
conspiracy (0.00 / 0)
I think some people see it as a conspiracy because that's how Klein presents! She is stating that there is collusion amongst capitalist powers to institute radical laissez-faire policies during times of crisis when people are most likely to unquestionably follow their leaders.

She may be right or it may be a more natural process without the necessary collusion. Haven't thought through it enough yet .


[ Parent ]
But That's Not What A Conspiracy Theory Is! (0.00 / 0)
Socio-economic collusion is a fact of life.  And talking about it is squarely within the tradition of institutional analysis that stands squarely opposed to the "hidden hand of the Illuminati" tradition of conspiricist thought that dates back to the reactionary response to the French Revolution.

The idea that "collusion amongst capitalist powers" and "more natural processes" are somehow opposed to one another would have sent Adam Smith into hysterical fits.  Smith observed that it was the most natural thing in the world for businessmen to conspire togehter whenever they met.


[ Parent ]
conspiracy (0.00 / 0)
Yes I agree with that. But I think the creeping conspiracy theory tinge in the video comes from the emphasis on Milton Friedman. Specifically when she quotes him advising people to institute wholesale privatization specifically after shocks.

That's what makes it seem like (to some at least) that Friedman is/was at the head of a small cabal that in a pre-meditating way institute these things.

Like I said, I'm inclined to agree with Klein, especially after your description of the change in IMF rules after the oil crisis, but I still haven't thought about it enough to see if the hypothesis really works.

Here's my question though. What brought about the ability of the collusionist capitalists to change the rules of the IMF and world bank? In the 70s, the free-marketeers did not hold nearly the amount of power they hold today. So how did they get their foot in the door? Were they always waiting in the wings for the right moment? Did Nixon give them cover when Eisenhower (the previous GOP prez.) wouldn't have? Was this time concurrent with a rise in neo-classical/neo-liberal economists? Fading Keynesian memories? What was the trigger?

I can reason through the later trigger. We voted him into office (Reagan). And with him came the whole slew of right-wing think tanks and deregulations of media that propped up the whole insidious ideology. But that crucial period in the 70s when the rules of the game were changed and where what sort of economic systems were deemed "acceptable" is still a mystery to me.


[ Parent ]
The Trigger Was The 1970s (0.00 / 0)
First about conspiracy theories, then about the trigger.

Look, conspiracies are a fact of life. Cabals are a fact of life.  People with wealth and power have wealth and power because they spend a lot of time sitting around thinking about how to preserve and expand their wealth and power.  (Either that, or they pay other people to do it for them.) If that's your definition of "conspiracy theory," then so be it.  But that definition hides much more than it reveals.

The classic meaning of "conspiracy theory" is a picture of the world that is basically sweetness and light except for a few hidden baddies who are outwardly benificent, but are secretly out fiendishly enslave all mankind, yadda, yadda, yadda.

This is not the picture Klein paints. Yes, there are some leading actors. But it's very much a story of how leading actors play a role within a shifting systemic landscape.  And that is very much the way that the world actually does work.  Furthermore, the leading actors are not, for the most part, scheming in secret. (They do meet a lot in private, but they talk in public all the time, too.) Friedman came right out and said precisely what he was about, which is why Klein has the quote from him. 

That's just not how conspiracy theories work.  (I can see what I should think about writing on for next weekend!)

Now, as for the trigger.  A number of things happened in the 1970s to bust up the elite consensus that had formed out of WWII.  The 1973-75 recession and oil shock, plus the second oil shock, plus the development of East Asian manufacturing--support for which was part of the deal to keep "fighting communism" all lead to a more unified corporate opposition to unions and government regulation.  At the same time, OPEC's increased oil revenues took a big hit out of Western economies.  Part of their stabilization strategy was to cost-shift to developing nations. 

Of course they didn't have anything like the power they have today, so they had to start small.  But they began the process of eroding social services in the developing world, and this in turn made for a "better investment climate" for super-exploitative practices, which in turn helped the bottom line at home, etc., etc., etc. Slowly but surely the balance started to shift.  Reagan's election brought big income tax cuts, followed a couple of years later by massive payroll tax (Social Security) increases, in the same time-frame that the first wave of mass de-industrialization hit.


[ Parent ]
It doesn't necessarily require a trigger (0.00 / 0)
We're talking about very powerful coporations, individuals and political interests. They are ALWAYS pushing to get more, and ALWAYS pushing to reduce the power of their opposition. It's what they do: enhance the bottom line, expand the factory, give high wages to their buddies, reduce taxes on the wealthy.

Since this pressure is always there, it is suficient for the opposition to lose its ability to counter-balance, enabling right-wing forces move steadily into the vacuum.

While the right wing will always take what it can get, the point under discussion is that a crisis sweeps the feet out from the opposition thereby, allowing them to implement more drastic or even radical change to the game.

There are times when the game table is upset on purpose in an entire country. Iran 1956, Brazil 1964, Chile 9/11/1973, Argentina 1976, Iraq 2003.

Is Friedman like the buddhist who eats karma free beef because someone else butchered it, or is he standing next to the butcher pointing to the cut he wants?


[ Parent ]
FWIW (4.00 / 1)
Nixon was reflexively pro-business/pro-market. He was forced to do things like create the EPA under pressure, but if you look at his overall attitude towards economics, he was clearly operating in the simplistic "less regulation means more enterprise" mindset. By contrast, Eisenhower was a General. He came from the largest central planning organization in the western world (the Pentagon), and it was something he clearly believed in (c.f. the interstate highway system).

Also, you have to take into account a lot of backlash against 1960s culture, much of which was more or less anti-capitalist and anti-business. This created plenty of cover for free-market fundimentalists to advance their cause.

For more on the historical context of free markets, you might want to look into Karl Polanyi's The Great Transformation, which plots out the emergence of the free market concept and it's development through law over the past four centuries.

Me | My Work | Future Majority


[ Parent ]
The Great Transformation Is... Great! (0.00 / 0)
It's been a looong time since I last read it.  Thanks for mentioning it.  It would be good for me to read again.

[ Parent ]
On Conspiracy Theories (0.00 / 0)
I guess, to me another important characteristic of conspiracy theories is that they have a single, simple (sinister) explanation and says "this is why things are terrible." The struggle of the power elite to create a "good investment climate", that is, a low-wage, low-benefit, low-taxes-on-the-rich environment, has been going on for centuries and has been waged in many ways. The shift since the 1950s has had many aspects: the Red scare; purging of Communists and other radicals from unions, the media, and academia; media consolidation; massive advertising; union busting; immigrant blaming; etc. Saying that it is all due to exploiting crises seems like much too simplistic an explanation. Using footage of the CIA torturing people as substantiation seems demagogic.

I can see that this might be a useful addition to our arguments and a "new take" and a "compelling narrative." But I don't think this is the answer. And I really doubt if it is the strongest argument or the most compelling narrative. The comments here would seem to indicate that it isn't compelling for many of us.


[ Parent ]
You're Half Right (0.00 / 0)
You're right about the nature of conspiricism tracing everthing back to a single source of evil (see my commenting excerpting Chris Berlet).  And if Klein were saying that there was a single sinister organization behind it all, you'd have a much better point.  But she's not saying that.  You're just reading that into a brief 7-minute film.

Furthermore, it's you who are lumping things together, and she who is making the relatively fine distinctions  when you write:

The struggle of the power elite to create a "good investment climate", that is, a low-wage, low-benefit, low-taxes-on-the-rich environment, has been going on for centuries and has been waged in many ways.

The power elite has all sorts of internal divisions, and has from time to time contained a great deal of variation, and even opposition to the policies you ascribe.  Following WWII, the power elite accepted the social democratic welfare state bargain.  The story Klein tells is about how they broke that bargain.  This is a much more refined, historically specific view of the world than you are articulating in criticizing her.

I can see that this might be a useful addition to our arguments and a "new take" and a "compelling narrative." But I don't think this is the answer.

I never said it was "the" answer.  I never say anything is "the" answer.  I'm a Jamesian pluralist and Jamesian pragmatist down to the marrow of my bones.

And I really doubt if it is the strongest argument or the most compelling narrative. The comments here would seem to indicate that it isn't compelling for many of us.

I'm not saying "strongest" or "most compelling."  I'm just saying it's Oscar-worthy.  It deserves a nomination. I'm not saying it should win after all the performances are in.

What performances do you recommend?

As for the comments, I think they say much more about the commentators than they do about Klein--and I don't mean this personally.  The confusion about the nature of conspiracism is very widespread.  Additionally, there is a strong bias toward wonkyness that progressives tend to find impossible to break, no matter how often it fails.  Furthermore, the film in particular is an artistic creation, it's a manifestation of the cultural left.  And the political left has never trusted the cultural left, it has always regarded them with suspicion.

So, in short, this sort of flack was entirely to be expected.  Maybe it got more carried away than it needed to.  I probably should have posted the Berlet interview much earlier.  But I just don't take it to be about Klein in particular.  It's a generic response, and it reflects a certain blindness to the necessity for one particular kind of narrative articulation.

Note, despite your apparent misreadings, I never said that "this is the key," I said "this is a key."  We need many elements in this struggle.  But reframing the old is one of those key things we need, and this is a very powerful example of that.

I will say one thing, though.  All this hysteria sort of makes me want to write a long post about the revolutionary implications of Buffy, The Vampire Slayer.  In fact....  well, you'll just have to wait and see.


[ Parent ]
You Are Missing My Point (0.00 / 0)
I think You are missing the point that I am trying to make. First, let me say that I mostly agree with you. I'm not saying that you or Klein are conspiracists. I'm not saying that the CIA didn't torture people or that we have a "free market" or that the power elite doesn't impose a very unfair and destructive economy on us. I agree with you on all of these things.

I even agree that Naomi Klein's narrative may be a useful one for helping people see that "free market capitalism" is not "natural, inevitable, noncoercive and beyond politics" (as you said in your third post, which by the way, I thought was excellent. All I was saying is that you are insisting that the "free market" is, as you say in the third post, "the product of deliberate anti-democratic interventions carried out when societies are helpless to resist."

I'm arguing that it is also imposed at other times. For example, the United States was not in crisis when Reagan fired the air-traffic controllers. We weren't in crisis when "de-regulation" was passed in California and other states. We weren't in crisis when Bush rammed the original tax breaks through Congress in June 2001. For that matter, we weren't in crisis when Bush stole the 2000 election. It is, of course, easier to impose crap on people when they are in crisis and freaked out. An "energy crisis" or a "9/11 terrorist attack" or an "Asia financial crisis" or a devastating war makes it much easier. But the power elite pushes constantly and wins at other times too depending on a lot of factors.

I think Klein's narrative is a useful addition, but I don't think you should insist on the crisis part of the narrative -- your argument isn't dependent on that part, there are real-world examples that contradict that part, and that part looks like scare tactics. That is all I'm saying. You can still talk about Klein's thesis as a useful addition to the argument, just don't insist that it covers everything.

The crisis narrative leaves you open to people assuming that you mean that the power elite create crises in order to ram their policies into place which can lead them assuming that you think all crises are created by the power elite. This immediately lumps you in with the 9/11 conspiratists who blame 9/11 on Israel or neoliberals. Of course, the power elite do deliberately create some crises. And their policies often inadvertently lead to crises. But they also just use crises as they come along: "This Katrina hurricane gives us the opportunity to get rid of those pesky poor black folks who always seem to vote for Democrats. Let's force them to go to Houston or somewhere."

So again, the crisis narrative is a useful addition, but you should use it with caution.


[ Parent ]
But I'm NOT Saying That!!! (0.00 / 0)
All I was saying is that you are insisting that the "free market" is, as you say in the third post, "the product of deliberate anti-democratic interventions carried out when societies are helpless to resist."

I don't know where you get this.  If I've said something inadvertantly to give you this impression, I'm sorry.  But it's not what I'm saying at all.  Klein is making an historical argument, not an ideological one.  It's an argument about specific historical developments, not about what must be.

I think Klein's narrative is a useful addition, but I don't think you should insist on the crisis part of the narrative -- your argument isn't dependent on that part,

My argument is that we need to reframe and undermine the existing hegemonic dogmas.  Klein's new book is an excellent example of how that is done.  So even though my argument doesn't depend on her narrative, it certainly appreciates it.  In contrast, the fault you find with her appears to be entirely the result of putting words in her mouth.

there are real-world examples that contradict that part,

Like I said before, Klein is presenting an historical account, not a new theory of eternal imperialism, or whatever.

and that part looks like scare tactics.

Well, sometimes it's rational to be scared.  But the notion that Klein is scaring us is faintly ludicrous, IMHO.  She's pointing out how these neoliberal policies have been advanced by (in part) scaring entire societies, and you accuse her of scare tactics? 

That is all I'm saying. You can still talk about Klein's thesis as a useful addition to the argument, just don't insist that it covers everything.

I never did.

The crisis narrative leaves you open to people assuming that you mean that the power elite create crises in order to ram their policies into place which can lead them assuming that you think all crises are created by the power elite.

To write is to be misunderstood.  If I wanted to avoid people grieveously misunderstanding me, I would never say anything at all.

This immediately lumps you in with the 9/11 conspiratists who blame 9/11 on Israel or neoliberals.

I'd like to point out that this is all happening to me in your imagination.

Passive-aggressive much?

Of course, the power elite do deliberately create some crises. And their policies often inadvertently lead to crises. But they also just use crises as they come along: "This Katrina hurricane gives us the opportunity to get rid of those pesky poor black folks who always seem to vote for Democrats. Let's force them to go to Houston or somewhere."

Which is exactly what Klein is arguing.

So again, the crisis narrative is a useful addition, but you should use it with caution.

Maybe you could give me a list of approved narratives?  Plus, of course, those rated "NC-17".


[ Parent ]
Huh? (0.00 / 0)
You said:

The "free market" is not natural, inevitable, noncoercive and beyond politics--as, for example, neocon Frances Fukiyama argued in The End of History--but rather the product of deliberate anti-democratic interventions carried out when societies are helpless to resist.

I then quoted you:

All I was saying is that you are insisting that the "free market" is, as you say in the third post, "the product of deliberate anti-democratic interventions carried out when societies are helpless to resist."

And you responded by saying:

I don't know where you get this.  If I've said something inadvertantly to give you this impression, I'm sorry.  But it's not what I'm saying at all.

I'm not sure what is going on. Are you:

(1) Mis-reading what I wrote?

(2) Saying that:

The "free market" is the product of deliberate anti-democratic interventions sometimes carried out when societies are helpless to resist.

If so, this is what I've been encouraging you to say. If this is what you are saying, then why did you feel compelled to rebut practically every word in my first comment? Did you think I was being belligerent? Did you misunderstand what I was saying? I was trying to be helpful, but you responded like I was viciously attacking you.

(3) Saying something else?

I feel you're responding in a really defensive manner and misinterpreting everything I'm saying. My point was really simple, but you keep accusing me of doing all kinds of things I'm not doing. I'm on your side. I agree with you in most respects. Jeez.


[ Parent ]
You Have A Funny Way Of Agreeing (0.00 / 0)
The main point here is that Klein is being unfairly attacked.  If I'm being defensive, it's not me I'm being defensive about, but Klein.  And one of the main aspects of this mischaracterization is portraying specific historical arguments as grandiose ideological ones.

With so many different comments in different diaries basically rehashing this argument, there's a tendency for things to get hopelessly confused.  I've tried to fight against this confusion, but I've obviously increased it in my frustration and haste in responding above. So, for the record, here is the argument in a nutshell:

(1) The "free market" is an ideological creation that has never existed in reality, and cannot exist in reality, although it may be approached more or less closely.

(2) To some extent, proponents actually do want what it promises (freedom from democratic restraint) and to some extent, proponents want exactly the opposite of what it promises (competition, driving down rates of profit).

(3) As opposed to schematized ideological debates, informed historical analysis encompases all this and more.  And that is precisely what Klein is engaged in.

(4) On a macro-historical scale, the modern market/industrial order--with which the myth of the "free market" is closely associated--was created by conscious destruction of the pre-existing order.  Someone brought up Polyani's The Great Transformation in reference to this.  I referred to the Acts of Enclosure as one key part of this larger process.

(5) Following the introduction of the market/industrial order, its massive failure to deliver (documented vividly by Charles Dickens) and powerful organized opposition (in the form, for example of the German Social Democratic Party, but also, ultimately the Soviet Union) lead to the creation of the welfare state.

(6) The success of the welfare state created a broad consensus, which "free market" ideologues never accepted.  The consensus was so broad and deep that it could only be countered by force.  This was broadly parallel to the initial creation of the market/industrial order, but historically different in form.  And it is this, specifically, that Klein is describing.

(7) The attacks on Klein are wildly off mark, and have nothing to do with what she is actually saying.  They are based on fundamentally misrepresenting her argument, responding irrationally to her, and projecting that irrationality onto her.

(8) Underneath it all, what people are really objecting to is simply the fact that the short film is very effective, and they just can't stand it.

(9) Tough.


[ Parent ]
To be prepared we need to stockpile ideas (4.00 / 1)
There was this exchange on an AlterNet interview with Klein a couple of days ago:

AlterNet: You don't argue that economic elites try to cause disasters they reap the benefits from, rather that they have "acute intellectual disaster preparedness" -- they are only cynical enough to take advantage of catastrophe.

Klein: I think that's right. The think tank infrastructure in this country is organized to leap into the chasm right away after disaster has struck. The Heritage foundation and the American Enterprise Institute stockpile free market ideas in the way that people stockpile canned goods.

Where are the progressive think tanks that are debating, publicizing and stockpiling progressive ideas that today seem hopelessly idealistic? We need whole bunches of policies we can pull off the shelf at a moment's notice, because one thing that's guaranteed is that change and even some disasters are headed our way.

Unlike the neocon free marketeers, progressives can stockpile ideas that have been tested and proven to succeed in many parts of the world. We have a winning track record of prosperity to draw on. On the other side, on the resume of hyper-privatization, there is a boom for a handful, a bust for the masses and general social, cultural and environmental misery over the long term.


We've Got The Ideas, But.. (0.00 / 0)
The main thing the right has is not just ideas lying around, but the infrastructure to blast them out and get everyone talking them up in unison.

They also have a huge advantage in that their ideas don't have to work.  If you want your ideas to work, you need to be sensitive to the fact that even proven ideas may not work as expected in a somewhat different environment.  So there's a need to fine-tune, test and evaluate ideas that the right never has to worry about.

Look at the example with health care.  Single-payer is very simple.  We've had it for decades.  It's called Medicare.  They're the ones who need all sorts of ideas, because they don't have anything that actually, you know, works.

So yes, we do need to work on our ideas.  But it's much less a matter of developing new ideas--we already do that pretty well--than it is a matter of developing institutions that can effectviely coordinate them and get them injected into the political process.


[ Parent ]
medicare (0.00 / 0)
Your medicare example is a perfect one.
I routinely feel like bashing my head against hard objects whenever I hear a radio discussion on NPR about the health care crisis in America. They will always have serious sober people on the air talking about this and that private-public mixture and how the states are leading the way with their experimentation (meaning the awful MA and CA plans). Inevitably someone will call in a ask about single-payer. And the response is always something to the effect of, "That's just not politically palatable in the United States". End of discussion! No one seems to think about the fact that Medicare is single payer! (maybe on purpose?). Also, it's kind of funny how everyone talks about how the states are experimenting with health care since the federal government has dropped the ball and this is such a great wonderful thing. Well, you could also say that we've had a 40 year old experiment at the entire national level with single-payer health care called Medicare and it's worked out quite well over the years.

It's so frustrating dealing with the fact that right now these neo-liberal frames are so dominant in the media and in politics.


[ Parent ]
Medicare For All (0.00 / 0)
A 3-word slogan that cuts through all the fog.

Next time, you be the one who calls in, and asks, "Why don't we just have Medicare for all?  Just drop the age requirement, and create a single-payer system for everyone.  We have 40 years experience with it--much more than any alternative."


[ Parent ]
A Final Word, Hopefully, On Conspiracy Theories (0.00 / 0)
It's quite obvious to me that some people here have only the fuzziest notion of what a conspiracy theory is.  An excellent clarification can be found in this interview of Chip Belet by David Barsamian.  Berlet is perhaps America's foremost debunker of conspiracy theories.  And as he exlains in this interview, conspiricy theorists are not completely wrong (just maddeningly so).  Here are just a few significant excerpts from the interview:

BARSAMIAN: Let's start with a working definition of conspiracy theory.

BERLET: I'm going to make a distinction between conspiracy and conspiracism, which is a way of seeing the world that overvalues the role of individual actors and undercuts any kind of systemic or institutional analysis. Conspiracism sees the world as governed by plots hatched by relatively small groups of people.

 

[BERLET:] Most people today who believe in conspiracy theory as the way the world works are people who are trying to figure out something about how power is exercised. People who believe in conspiracy theory are correct in analyzing that the world does not work the way power elites say it works; that there is a disjuncture between how power is realized and how we're told the U.S. works-as a democracy with everyone having a vote and everyone having a role in developing policies for the United States.

The problem is when this is all attempted to be knit together into one seamless tapestry that goes back hundreds of years and involves everybody who is in the media, education, and politics. It's this extension into complete control over all aspects of a person's life that debunks conspiracy just on the basis of rational investigation. You simply can't have a conspiracy that goes back centuries and extends across so many different sectors of a society and not have it unravel as people turn against each other.

[BARSAMIAN:] Some of the groups that keep turning up over and over again are, for example, the Trilateral Commission, the Council on Foreign Relations, the Illuminati, the Bilderburgers, the Rockefellers, and others.

[BERLET:] Some of these are institutions that have real power in the world and we should be investigating them as power brokers. The dilemma is assuming because a group has power that it has control. There are many powerful groups that meet and plot strategy. The Bilderburgers are a real banking group, the Trilateral Commission really does affect foreign policy.

But there isn't one group that is the puppeteer over everything; there are a number of groups that are jockeying for power. Sometimes they work together, sometimes they have falling-outs. That's the distinction here. An institutional analysis would look at the role of these powerful groups and say, "This is where they've been successful, this is where they've failed. These groups worked together for a number of years. Now they don't work together." It's the insistence on a kind of Manichean thinking: there are evil forces in the world and good people have to expose them, and everything will be fine once they are exposed. This is a magical explanation of how the world works. Power concedes nothing without a struggle, as Frederick Douglass pointed out. You cannot change the way power is exercised in the world simply by exposing a handful of people. There needs to be a struggle to explain how systems and institutions and structures of society affect us.

Even if we could expose a handful of people who are powerful, there would still be powerful forces of capitalism and class exploitation. There would be powerful forces of white supremacy. There would be patriarchy. There would be heterosexism.

Conspiracy theorists are right-something is wrong. But we're not going to change things by running down six white guys drinking bourbon in a basement on Wall Street. We're going to change things by showing how people are affected by a political and economic system that values wealth and power and privilege and we need to change that to value democracy, diversity, and equality.

I agree wholeheartedly with everything that Berlet has to say, and from everything I know about Naomi Klein (including this film, the interview with Amy Goodman, and the other material about this book), she would agree as well.

This whole discussion has been nothing more than one big red herring.

And don't think for a moment I don't know who's really behind it!


Thank you! (0.00 / 0)
Good explanation.

I think John Edwards should use this quote,

"Power concedes nothing without a struggle, as Frederick Douglass pointed out. "

Fits nicely into his recent stump speech.


[ Parent ]
Klein provides a historical overview not a conspiracy theory (4.00 / 1)
What makes Klein's "Shock Doctrine" so credible is her manifest ability to draw together the most salient albeit disparate threads in the history of the conservative counter-revolution in America that transformed its democracy and free enterprise system into a plutocracy, in which the wealthy simultaneously control both the government and the economy in order to transfer more wealth to themselves.

Klein's work is not simply a "conspiracy theory" but a well-documented historical analysis of how a deeply authoritarian, anti-democratic economic, political and social elite can derail a well-established democracy and flourishing free enterprise system in the short space of a few decades.

What Klein has done is to show those of us inclined to probe deeply into such phenomena that the roots of our present predicaments in America lie in more than 30 years of concerted efforts by powerful economic and political interests to create an unregulated economy whose primary benefits are reaped by the wealthy at the expense of everyone else.

Her thesis is proved by the economic distress in which working Americans find themselves and the political distress of the majority of Americans who cannot get their representatives to enact the laws they want them to enact because their representatives are basically in the pockets of the wealthy economic interests who finance their electoral campaigns and hire them as lobbyists when they leave office.

The accuracy of Klein's work is confirmed not only by the totalitarian acts of the Bush administration in ruling by fiat and illegally using military force abroad but also by the demonstrated failure of laissez-faire free market economics. All you have to do is to look at the historically unprecedented transfer of wealth to the wealthy that has taken place since the conservatives achieved working majorities in government, often with the help of ideologically fellow-traveling Democrats.

There can be no doubt about the destructive impact of the conservative control of U.S. government that Klein describes when you look at the dereliction of duty by elected representatives who have let the nation's infrastructure crumble before our very eyes, leaving Katrina victims to die horrible deaths and motorists to plunge off broken bridges while the nation's insurers are allowed to reap windfall profits by restricting medical coverage and care to those least likely to need it.

Paul Rosenberg has done OpenLeft a great service by highlighting Naomi Klein's work. No doubt it will eventually be embraced by the majority of Americans, starting with those of us who realize that we must heed the lessons of history as we craft a strategy for bringing to power a progressive political system that revives our democracy and reinvents our free enterprise system on a level playing field so that both serve all the people.

Nancy Bordier is the founder of Citizens' Winning Hands (www.citizenswinninghands.net)


[ Parent ]
Klein and the Allan Memorial Institute experiments (0.00 / 0)
Klein would naturally use Dr Cameron's experiments for the CIA at the Allan Memorial Institute as a point of comparison for Friedman theories (and catastrophic applications in Chile and Iraq), because as a Montrealer, she would have been quite aware of this program and its repercussions.

It's NOT a conspiracy theory, but an actual CIA program (part of MKUltra), well documented, and which has been the target of a number of successful lawsuits in Montreal. The Allan Memorial experiments are a dark chapter in the history of both Psychiatry as a whole, and of the Royal Victoria Hospital and McGill University in Montreal in particular.


For those who still think MKUltra is the stuff of paranoid fantasies (0.00 / 0)
http://www.cbc.ca/st...

[ Parent ]

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