Notice how Perriello (0.00 / 0)

supports modernizing FISA as opposed to your desire to see the current modernizing expire with no further action to fix what was wrong in the amendment while still addressing the need for an amendment. I commented on this further in the previous thread. Perriello is on the right side of this because he wants to address the issues in law and not just ignore them.

http://www.openleft....

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by: talex @ Sat Oct 13, 2007 at 14:38:35 PM CDT

fixing (0.00 / 0)

I support fixing the small gap in FISA.  If Bush vetoes a fix of that gap, I don't think Democrats should pass telecom immunity.

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by: Matt Stoller @ Sat Oct 13, 2007 at 14:46:38 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Oh OK (0.00 / 0)

I don't recall you saying that in the past. I only remember you saying we should let the current amendment expire. If we were to do that we are still back to square one having to make  the "small gap in FISA".

BTW my original account is not working - I can't sign in. I thought it was just a server problem until I saw others still posting. I emailed for my password and received it. I still cannot login. I made this new account so I could respond to a few responses to my posts. My original handle is "talex". This new one is "talex_". Have any idea what is up with my original account? Thanks.

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by: talex_ @ Sat Oct 13, 2007 at 16:27:41 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

No one (0.00 / 0)

"just" wants to ignore them.  But making the problems permanent is worse, and I think this should be obvious, than doing nothing.

If we do nothing, we have an opportunity to fix the bill at a later date, if we pass another capitulation bill, our civil rights are eviscerated. 

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by: Sam L @ Sat Oct 13, 2007 at 14:46:51 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I gotta say that.... (0.00 / 0)

.................this frames the issue very well for me at least:

Our intelligence community needs our resources, not our rights.

That's exactly right. Progressives don't want to let the 'Terrorists Win' we just want the rule of law to be observed and we sure as hell think that the Constitution is far, far more than 'just a piece of paper...' unlike the Criminal-Moron-in-the-White-House and his thugs such as David Addington and Gonzales.

The whole argument that the government needs to spy on everyone to the extent Cheney wants to is dubious at best.

I seem to recall the National Security Advisor having in her possession, prior to 9/11, a document titled 'Bin Laden determined to strike in the continental United States' and....

What happened next?

Wasn't that document produced by the system which Bush and his enablers say didn't work?

Food for thought perhaps?

A reason Bush is so insistent that the 'system didn't work.....' perhaps?

It's called CYA I believe. Never think that Cheney and Bush aren't ultimately concerned with one thing and one thing only, no it isn't our nation, and that is:

Getting away with it.

Peace, Health and Prosperity for Everyone.

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by: ACitizen @ Sat Oct 13, 2007 at 15:07:34 PM CDT

I would go even further (0.00 / 0)

Progressives believe that strictly obeying the 4th Amendment not only preserves our liberty, but improves our chances of achieving real security (there's no such thing as total security from malicious threats in this world). By respecting the limits placed on what types of information government can and cannot legally intercept, based on a judicially enforcable probable cause standard, the government is prevented from wasting resources on stupid fishing expeditions and forced to think about and use limited resources in the most efficient way possible.

In a world of 6 billion people, and especially a world where the main threats to our collective security come from maybe 10,000 dedicated nihilists located maybe anywhere amongst those 6 billion, intelligence resources should be focused like a laser on finding those people, not on a ridiculous dragnet of the American citizenry. Rigorously respecting the 4th Amendment prevents bad actors in our system from using the spying apparatus of this country for short-sighted political goals and mandates that the NSA and other intelligence agencies focus on the smartest ways to track the true bad actors out there.

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by: Ron @ Sat Oct 13, 2007 at 18:53:28 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

He's got my vote (0.00 / 0)

Based on first impressions, I really like this guy.  Anyone have any idea what his chances are of getting elected?  I briefly checked out his web site and, as Matt says, he seems to have a very "different model of religious engagement, focusing on the common good and public service."  He strikes me as the type of candidate that can help build bridges between secular and religious progressives, and provide the Dems a renewed, inclusive and positive sense of identity, which they much need. 

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by: mitchipd @ Sat Oct 13, 2007 at 15:43:51 PM CDT

It's All Nonsense (0.00 / 0)

If everyone simply adds "Osama" and "Terrorist" and "Kill the P******" to email taglines and drops these in phone conversations. . .if even just a fraction of citizens did this, it would defeat any and all broad eavesdropping surveillance programs. All we have to do is have the temerity to start such a movement.

The war on terrorism is insignificant. It's the battle to put the brakes on climate change we need to worry about. Thousands may die from terrorism. Billions WILL die from climate change. Read Lovelock, Brown, et cetera. We're wasting our time with this silliness.


"Because the world doesn't matter if you don't have the strength to go ahead and choose something that's really true." - J. Cortazar

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by: todbrilliant @ Sat Oct 13, 2007 at 15:47:04 PM CDT

Be sure and.... (0.00 / 0)

....tell These guys that 'It's all nonsense when they show up at your house looking for you

The GWOT is indeed nonsense but that's not the war Bush and his cabal have been fighting.

They've been fighting a war on you. A war to strip you of your rights. A war to divert the tax dollars you pay into their pockets instead of anything like....

Regulation of carbon usage....

Subsidizing alternative fuel production or better yet....

Buying everybody an electric car.

And, please, spare me the nitpicking about my examples. It's been a long day arguing with the ill-informed.

Ya know what I mean?

Peace, Health and Prosperity for Everyone.

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by: ACitizen @ Sat Oct 13, 2007 at 17:46:11 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

No Nipicking (0.00 / 0)

They're good examples and they drive home a good point. To worry about the bogeymen is to admit defeat (your link didn't work but I'm guessing it had something to do with Bush Brown Shirts violating what used to be Consitutional rights?).

Thanks for bringing the conversation back to what the war is really about--a simple power grab.

"Because the world doesn't matter if you don't have the strength to go ahead and choose something that's really true." - J. Cortazar

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by: todbrilliant @ Sat Oct 13, 2007 at 19:31:53 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

This link should work (0.00 / 0)

http://takeaction.wo...

and yeah it's about our own homegrown brown-shirts.

Peace, Health and Prosperity for Everyone.

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by: ACitizen @ Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 08:49:53 AM CDT

[ Parent ]