Ross Douthat & the elite manufacture of "populist" dissent on global warming

by: Paul Rosenberg

Fri Oct 15, 2010 at 12:00


Facts be damned, ain't democracy grand?  That's Ross Douthat's response to recent commentary on the fact that the GOP is virtually alone among the world's major political parties in opposing the science of global warming.

Here's the sequence of events. In the National Journal, Ronald Brownstein wrote last Saturday "GOP Gives Climate Science A Cold Shoulder", about the GOP's unique situation. He lead off by noting the position of the British Conservative Party Foreign Secretary:

When British Foreign Secretary William Hague visited the U.S. last week, he placed combating climate change near the very top of the world's To Do list.

"Climate change is perhaps the 21st century's biggest foreign-policy challenge," Hague declared in a New York City speech.


and went on to note:
His strong words make it easier to recognize that Republicans in this country are coalescing around a uniquely dismissive position on climate change. The GOP is stampeding toward an absolutist rejection of climate science that appears unmatched among major political parties around the globe, even conservative ones....

Of the 20 serious GOP Senate challengers who have taken a position, 19 have declared that the science of climate change is inconclusive or flat-out incorrect. (Kirk is the only exception.) With sentiments among rank-and-file Republicans also trending that way, it's no coincidence that two Republicans who affirmed the science -- Rep. Michael Castle in Delaware and Sen. Lisa Murkowski in Alaska -- were defeated in Senate primaries this year....

Indeed, it is difficult to identify another major political party in any democracy as thoroughly dismissive of climate science as is the GOP here. Eileen Claussen, president of the Pew Center on Global Climate Change, says that although other parties may contain pockets of climate skepticism, there is "no party-wide view like this anywhere in the world that I am aware of."

Douthat led off by citing Brownstein's piece, then wrote:

What's interesting, though, is that if you look at public opinion on climate change, the U.S. isn't actually that much of an outlier among the wealthier Western nations. In a 2007-2008 Gallup survey on global views of climate change, for instance, just 49 percent of American told pollsters that human beings are responsible for global warming. But the same figure for Britain (where Rush Limbaugh has relatively few listeners, I believe) was 48 percent, and belief in human-caused climate change was only slightly higher across northern Europe....

There's a reasonably large Western European constituency, in other words, for some sort of climate change skepticism.... But the politicians haven't been responding. Instead, Europe's political class, left and right alike, has worked to marginalize a position that it considers intellectually disreputable, even as the American G.O.P. has exploited that same position to win votes.

The debate over climate change isn't unusual in this regard. On issues ranging from the death penalty to (at least until recently) immigration, America's major political parties generally tend to be more responsive to public opinion, and less constrained by elite sentiment, than their counterparts in Europe. Overall, I much prefer the American approach, populist excesses and all. (It helps in this case, of course, that I'm deeply skeptical about the efficacy of climate change legislation anyway.) But there's no denying that its left the G.O.P. on the wrong side - and increasingly so - of a pretty sturdy scientific consensus.

As usual with Douthat, there are problems galore with his reasoning.  

Paul Rosenberg :: Ross Douthat & the elite manufacture of "populist" dissent on global warming
For one, the Gallup Poll wording and results are not sufficient to really support his argument. Large numbers of people remain unsure about global warming, so similar numbers who say they're certain it's caused by human activities does not necessarily translate into similar levels of popular opposition.  Moreoever, the GOP's opposition is of a certain conspiracist flavor (also seen here at Open Left recently, displayed by metamars).  The views expressed by the GOP are not simply that man-made global warming isn't real, but that it's a liberal fascist hoax, with the scientists in on it, and Gallup simply didn't ask if people believed that.  So Douthat actually has no data that even in America--much less Western Europe--there's actually a populist position to drive such views.

There is, however, a fair amount of collaborative evidence to indicate that American "conservatives" are different. Indeed, Bill McKibben, takes a hard look at this in a New Republic article ("Hot Mess: Why are conservatives so radical about the climate?") that Douthat also mentions--but doesn't discuss. After zeroing in on the conspiracist element, McKibben writes:

The odd and troubling thing about this stance is not just that it prevents action. It's also profoundly unconservative. If there was ever a radical project, monkeying with the climate would surely qualify. Had the Soviet Union built secret factories to pour carbon dioxide into the atmosphere and threatened to raise the sea level and subvert the Grain Belt, the prevailing conservative response would have been: Bomb them. Bomb them back to the Holocene-to the 10,000-year period of climatic stability now unraveling, the period that underwrote the rise of human civilization that conservatism has taken as its duty to protect. Conservatism has always stressed stability and continuity; since Burke, the watchwords have been tradition, authority, heritage. The globally averaged temperature of the planet has been 57 degrees, give or take, for most of human history; we know that works, that it allows the world we have enjoyed. Now, the finest minds, using the finest equipment, tell us that it's headed toward 61 or 62 or 63 degrees unless we rapidly leave fossil fuel behind, and that, in the words of NASA scientists, this new world won't be "similar to that on which civilization developed and to which life on earth is adapted." Conservatives should be leading the desperate fight to preserve the earth we were born on.

This is a very crucial point. Western conservatism has two distinct main branches.  The "intellectually respectable" branch derives from Burke, while the gut-wrenching reactionary conspiracist branch derives from de Maistre--or at least was first pioneered by him. American conservatives almost never talk about de Maistre, but it's his mode of thinking that they predominantly follow.  While McKibben is quite correct in noting the disconnect between Burkean conservatism and global warming denialism, he's overlooking the role of reactionary conspiracism pioneered by de Maistre.

In Europe, the post-WWII expression of this split has generally been between center-right Christian Democratic parties of government (either ruling, or forming the establishment opposition), and neo-fascist nationalist fringe parties, such as the British National Front, or the much more successful French example of Jean Marie La Pen. But in America, the dynamic has been quite different for a number of reasons, not least is the legacy of Nixon's "Southern Strategy." In America, the fringe forces of Europe have taken over the conservative party of government, and it is the takeover of the party apparatus that we are seeing reflected in the GOP's virtually unanimous hostility to global warming, rather than any sort of democratic responsiveness.  The difference between the party-takeover explanation and Douthat's fuzzy-minded populist narrative can easily be seen in the fact that unified party hostility to global warming contrasts sharply with underlying polling data.  

We don't have a super-abundance of such data, but what we do have shows a sizeable segment of Republican believers in global warming who are entirely unrepresented by the supposedly representative democratic process that Douthat dotes on.  In some polls they are a sizeable minority, in others, a clear majority. For example:

ABC News/Washington Post Poll. June 3-6, 2010. N=1,004 adults nationwide.
"Do you think the federal government should or should not regulate the release of greenhouse gases from sources like power plants, cars and factories in an effort to reduce global warming?"
              Should    Should Not   Unsure
                 %         %           %
6/3-6/10        71        26           4
Democrats       81        16           2
Republicans     55        39           5
Independents    69        27           3

Boy, those GOP senators really know how to represent their base, now don't they?  Populism roolz!

Douthat's explanation is further weakened by the obvious role that vast sums of corporate money have played in shaping conservative opposition to global warming. And his "democratic" "populist" thesis is further undermined by the solid Republican rejection of the notion that such money should have such influence. On Thursday, Greg Sargent reported on Plum Line (and Rachel Maddow repeated), an overwhelming majority of Republicans believe voters have a right ot know who's paying for ads.  But you don't exactly see GOP Senators lining up to vote for the DISCLOSE Act, now do you?  Here's Greg:

It has become an article of faith among certain Beltway inside-game commentators that there's no way the Dem attack on secret money funding elections could ever have a prayer of working. Surely the issue is too esoteric, too process-y, and too removed from voter concerns about the economy to resonate.

But a new poll commissioned by MoveOn, and done by the respected non-partisan firm Survey USA, strongly suggests that the issue may indeed matter a good deal to voters after all.

The poll finds that two thirds of registered voters, or 66 percent, are aware that outside groups are behind some of the ads they're seeing....

What's more, an overwhelming 84 percent say they have a "right to know" who's bankrolling the ads....

Here are other key findings from the poll, which was provided to me by a MoveOn official:

    * An overwhelming 84% of voters polled, including 80% of Republicans and 81% of Independents, believe voters have a right to know who is paying for ads for a particular candidate.

What this example shows--beyond the sheer bogosity of yet another Douthat scribble--is the profound degree to which conservative elites in America get to define what counts as "populist sentiment".  As Sargent begins, "It has become an article of faith among certain Beltway inside-game commentators that there's no way the Dem attack on secret money funding elections could ever have a prayer of working."  And it's almost a dead certainty that no one would ever have thought to even ask the American people, except for a group like MoveOn, which is not just progressive, but was born out of spontaneous disgust with Versailles consensus.


Tags: , , , , (All Tags)
Print Friendly View Send As Email
On fooling Mother Nature (4.00 / 7)
Politically speaking, a lie and the truth are functionally equivalent -- provided you have enough money. It's still worth pointing out to Douthat and all the other smug assholes who think they've got us where they want us, that they're not arguing with us, they're arguing with reality.

Which, as they'll no doubt find out bye-and-bye, doesn't much give a shit how clever you are.


Or, As McKibben Says (4.00 / 3)
(bending over backwards, I would say, but):

The essential question is: Is the environment a subset of the economy, or is it the other way around? Or, more combatively, you really think you can out-argue physics? Hayek's good, but atmospheric chemistry is a tough opponent.


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Well, and who created those nasty natural laws in the first place? (0.00 / 0)
According to the conservative worldview, it's g_d (as they spell it). Strange that they still side with Hayek in this fight...
:D

[ Parent ]
They are not arguing, they are collecting cash in oil tanker sizes, (4.00 / 1)
because they will avoid the climate catastrophes with money and more money and .. you get the picture.

There is not a problem hurtling down the pipe of physics and destiny that they can not avoid.

An economic tsunami, of world devastating proportions swept across us and sent millions into poverty. The class you refer to didn't flinch, didn't duck and didn't blush. They just took your money, more money, oil tankers filled with money.

When the climate begins spinning off kilter, and true devastation hits millions, making good on the promise of the floods of Pakistan, which is just a trailer for the feature coming soon, they will open another bottle of Whiskey, pop another cork.

Do not assume that the catastrophes they don't care about will hurt them as much as it will hurt us.

And it will hurt us, for generations.

--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
this is - (0.00 / 0)
why conservatives ULTIMATELY will be defeated - You can keep stupidity and ignorance up for a while - if 'the people' are as concerned with the economy as they are right now - but  on  the long run you get fried -('literally')
And wouldn't it be great if one day we could argue such a subject without the 'help' of any 'polls'? - What did a wise man once write: Climate Change is completely indifferent to what 'the people' think about it!

Although (0.00 / 0)
Those polls both run on and generate a good deal of hot air!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Lysenko rides again (0.00 / 0)
Thanks for this ... I read Douthat's piece and thought it was cr*p... just another elitest slur to avoid the issues. He does admit that conservatives are facing a scientific consensus that is growing more (and not less) solid.

Are we heading into a period of Lysenkoism, where only scientific theories that bolster "the free market" will be acceptable? I think so.


Couple of thoughts (4.00 / 4)
1. As usual with Douthat, there are problems galore with his reasoning.

My sense of aesthetics is offended at seeing Douthat and reasoning occur in the same sentence.  They should be kept as far apart as possible lest even a scintilla of Douthat corrupt and contaminate even a pixel of reasoning.  I don't believe they should even occur in the same column, and maybe not even on the same page.

2.  Not having any idea who the heck de Maistre was, I defaulted to Wiki.  Such an "interesting" historical figure was Joseph.  I was struck at how closely Wiki's image of this individual reminded me of Charles Krauthammer.  Seems the resemblance doesn't stop there either, assuming I've identified the right individual.

3.  What I find mind numbingly sad, is that sizeable segment of Republican believers in global warming who are entirely unrepresented by the supposedly representative democratic process, coupled with those Democrat and Independent believers might just give us a glimmer of hope at coping with the disaster that seems sure to come otherwise.  I've decided that while there are very few genuine progressives in Congress, there might be even fewer conservatives.


Science is not a democracy (4.00 / 1)
if you look at public opinion on climate change, the U.S. isn't actually that much of an outlier among the wealthier Western nations. In a 2007-2008 Gallup survey on global views of climate change, for instance, just 49 percent of American told pollsters that human beings are responsible for global warming. But the same figure for Britain (where Rush Limbaugh has relatively few listeners, I believe) was 48 percent, and belief in human-caused climate change was only slightly higher across northern Europe....

Opinions and polls - especially among those who are ignorant of the data - are meaningless.

Now, the results of poll conducted among the world community of climate scientists - THAT might have some relevance.


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


Haven't You Heard??? (4.00 / 2)
If the GOP wins in November, they plan on repealing the law of gravity.

As a result, employment & the stock market will rise dramatically, sources say.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Let 'em try (4.00 / 1)
at least it will take up their time and delay repeal of health insurance reform, privatizing SS, and impeaching Obama for no good reason.

I figure it would also solve traffic congestion in the core cities. And it would probably be easier to find a parking space (although finding your car afterwards might be tricky).  

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
You Might Think It A Cause of Levity (4.00 / 2)
But electromagnetism could be next!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Iott (4.00 / 1)
privatizing SS

I suppose Iott might want to bring the SS back into the government if he gets in...


[ Parent ]
Agree, ito scientific merit (0.00 / 1)
And furthermore, it'd be highly desirable to try and determine if scientists who don't believe that AGW is a big problem are actually getting funded by oil companies, as well as determine what the ideological orientation is of scientists who aren't riding the AGW train.

I have predicted that there are more out-of-the-closet skeptics of AGW in Europe, than in the US, due to my expectations of similarities to what I know about differences in the sociology of string theory physicists.

Here's a scientist from New Zealand who says that most scientists that he speaks to about this are between the 2 extremes of believing that AGW is a big threat, and no threat at all:

Is he wrong? Paid by oil companies to say so? A New Zealander Republican wanna-be?

Following the money, as well as the ideology, are probably always good things to study when there's a significant scientific controversy.

More AGW skeptical videos are here.

From that page, I've also watched all 5 parts of the following, and thought it was excellent:



435 Dem Primaries 2012
Coffee Party Usa
TheRealNews.Com


[ Parent ]
Another thing to investigate about AGW skeptics who are scientists is... (0.00 / 0)
how many of them are also skeptics with respect to evolution? After all, if the AGW skeptics are irrational, and their irrationality has it's origin in them being, e.g., Christian fundamentalists, there should be other signs of this bias. Evolution skepticism would be a rather clear marker of such a bias, I would think.

This thought just occured to me after reading a comment in a web page describing Professor Bob Carter's new book, Climate: The Counter Consensus. (Carter is the interviewee of the first video I posted.) That comment was:

I think it's great that "The Truth" is finaly getting out on this subject.
Now... if there were only a "Counter Consensus" on Evolution. I know it's out there, just not as widely known about. I think the reason it's not is that the "Evolution" debate doesn't effect our wallets. Yet.

Ah-h-h-h-h, no I don't think this has a prayer of being true, except possibly if you're talking about the actual origin of living cells on Earth. Except for a few Christian fundamentalist bioligists, here or there, I don't think you're going to have anything like a consensus building against evolution. In fact, if the research I'm suggesting in this comment is carried out, I predict that most scientists will laugh before they answer the evolution question.  

435 Dem Primaries 2012
Coffee Party Usa
TheRealNews.Com


[ Parent ]
2nd video (0.00 / 0)
I can't get past the 1:08 time - I don't want to listen to these assholes with their stupid air of superiority.
And for people to suddenly discover that the climate is dynamic is really telling us something about how little they know about how the world works.

What an asshole.

Might he have thought to inform his listeners that the researchers most responsible for the extensive knowledge we now have about all those cycles he lists are overwhelmingly on the side of thinking that anthropogenic warming is happening and is something that policy-makers need to take into consideration?

What an asshole.

Read Ruddiman or Broecker. Get your head out of this dung-heap you've fallen into.

http://www.amazon.com/Build-Ha...

http://www.amazon.com/Earths-C...
Ruddiman is one of the people  


[ Parent ]
It's too bad that you didn't last another :02 seconds (0.00 / 1)
That's because at 1:10, there's a graph of CO2 and temperature vs. time, going back millions of years. I'm pretty sure that, if you showed this graph to any reasonably intelligent college physics student, and asked them what they could tell you about the relationships between the two curves, they wouldn't have a clue, and probably tell you there's virtually no correlation.

If that's true, and if the graphs are at all accurate (which I also have my doubts about) then it's reasonable to say that the ECS construct is rubbish over any suitably long period of time, though I wouldn't say that this would forbid it over a relatively short time period. However, I can't help wondering how one could possibly prove the allowability of ECS over a shorter time period, given the longer time scale lack of correlation.

Actually, the graphs that show CO2 lagging temperature by about 800 years are the most interesting. That's because the pattern is repeated, which suggests to me that there's a consistent and ultimately calculatable relationship.

I'm curious how AGW proponents square the 800 year lagging behavior with the ECS. My guess is they don't even try.

Hell, I'd be interested to know how anybody - AGW or AGW skeptic - explains a lag as long as 800 years!  

435 Dem Primaries 2012
Coffee Party Usa
TheRealNews.Com


[ Parent ]
liar (4.00 / 1)
1:53-2:13 is simply a bald-face lie. Carter states, with a straight face, that everybody including the IPCC agrees that the doubling of CO2 will result increase temperature by 1°C. That is utter bullshit.

Temperature is expected to increase linearly with the logarithm of pCO2 - basically there's a saturation effect in the atmosphere so greater and greater additions of CO2 are required to achieve the same increase in radiative forcing. So we talk about "climate sensitivity" as sort of a fundamental value that we need to nail down, being the amount of warming expected per doubling of pCO2. As IPCC defines it in the 4th Assessment Report:

'Equilibrium climate sensitivity' (ECS) is the equilibrium annual global mean temperature response to a doubling of equivalent atmospheric CO2 from pre-industrial levels and is thus a measure of the strength of the climate system's eventual response to greenhouse gas forcing.

In the summary from the same chapter:

constraints from observed climate change support the overall assessment that the ECS is likely to lie between 2°C and 4.5°C with a most likely value of approximately 3°C
.

It takes one hell of a lot of balls to get up in an interview and so completely and flatly mischaracterize climate science. And what people need to understand is that when you're up against people who are willing to tell such bald-faced lies there is no way to win the argument. These people get their videos up on the web and linked to and circulated and all of a sudden we're challenged that we're making some big huge deal about what's at most only going to be about a degree of warming. Such frustrating bullshit.

And that's not even to mention that we're anticipating going well above doubling of preindustrial pCO2 in our children's lifetimes - we may quadruple it.

Will you please, please, please quit giving these assholes free publicity without having the first clue what you or they are talking about?


[ Parent ]
forgot about the economic/standard of living lie (0.00 / 0)
6:30-7:04 is another whopper.

I know it's not the right thing to do, but part of me really wants somebody to delete this video from OL - there is no conceivable reason that this site should be used to boost the Google score of this kind of total bullshit.


[ Parent ]
Well, I can't help but agree that 1°C <> 3°C (0.00 / 1)
I'm guessing that he simply misspoke. He does say that we've already had 75% of "that warming". (2:28)

Taking "that warming" to be 3°C, that means that we've already had roughly 2°C of it, meaning we have a whopping 1°C to go, if CO2 doubles from the pre-industrial age.

Personally, I don't think the world will much notice a further 1°C rise in temperature....

And if he's correct about how we're due for global cooling, because of solar activity, that 1°C will be missed. But not sorely missed, because it's really not much. I used to go camping in the winter, equipped with thermal underwear and hand warmers. If you'd told me "Hey, I can heat your tent by 1°C", I would have laughed.

435 Dem Primaries 2012
Coffee Party Usa
TheRealNews.Com


[ Parent ]
Bullshit (0.00 / 0)
You're moving to the other side of the naive-troll divide.

Why do you feel the need to excuse these people? He did not simply misspeak - the interview is riddled with half-truths and lies, all calculated to misrepresent the actual scientific community.

Once again, quit giving these assholes free publicity. You are either in way over your head, or you are a troll. If you insist on continuing to defend what is clearly a misrepresentation of climate science, then I have to conclude that you are a troll and will start rating you as such.


[ Parent ]
I don't feel the need to excuse anybody (0.00 / 1)
If he misspoke, he should retract. If he lied, he should apologize. And stop his lying, too.

Do you agree that the RealClimate dude who wrote the hit piece on Beck should apologize or retract? Or does this only work for AGW skeptics?

Let me take a wild guess, here, and say that there are lots of lying, distorting hit-pieces at RealClimate.org. If this is the case, should those other RealClimate.org authors also retract and/or apologize?

435 Dem Primaries 2012
Coffee Party Usa
TheRealNews.Com


[ Parent ]
Re all of your troll ratings (0.00 / 0)
I guess that's easier than sticking with the subject, eh?

FWIW, I never expected you to answer the question about how hit-piece authors should make amends at RealClimate.org.

435 Dem Primaries 2012
Coffee Party Usa
TheRealNews.Com


[ Parent ]
Assuming that people misspoke (0.00 / 0)
hardly suggests that you are an objective observer.

It makes you look like an apologist.


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
What would be the motivation for lying? (0.00 / 0)
If 75% of 1°C has already occurred, on the way to doubling CO2, vs. 75% of 3°C, we're still talking about a small number: .25°C vs. .75°C.

Do you honestly think anybody in the public gives a hoot about +-.5°C?

I don't see any motivation for lying, so misspeaking seems a more reasonable hypothesis. I'm going to try and contact him to clear this up.

I'm not going to bother trying to contact the author of the smear job of Beck on RealClimate.org. No way that was that author merely mispeaking.  

435 Dem Primaries 2012
Coffee Party Usa
TheRealNews.Com


[ Parent ]
I encourage you to contact him (0.00 / 0)
Do you honestly think anybody in the public gives a hoot about +-.5°C?

As I said previously - I don't think that the position of the "public" matters very much at all. It might if the general public were well informed on the issue, but they are not.

What he communicates to the "public" is the message that those who are claiming that humans have a role in global climate change are wrong, wrong, wrong. That's the message that drives the public opinions that you cited earlier and that public opinion is the ONLY evidence that the denialist perspective has relevance. Public opinion has no meaning to the scientific truth.

Dr. Carter's actions are more consistent with someone who seeks to cast doubt on human induced climate change, than a scientist seeking to communicate his findings to the world.

Therefore, I distrust him.  

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
He's clearly said that he believes that AGW exists (0.00 / 0)
but that it is a MINOR effect. Probably so minor that it's not worth spending billions of dollars on.

Since we've passed peak oil, burning coal throws birth-defect causing mercury into the atmosphere, etc., etc., I doubt that he'd be against stringent regulations of the fossil fuel industry, per se. (That's a speculation on my part.) However, he's specifically mentioned New Zealand costly attempts to reduce methane emissions, when those emissions were already declining, significantly. I.e., his basic argument is that the cost to benefit ratio is absurd.

Also, my favorite lefty climate scientist, Dennis Rancourt, takes a similar viewpoint, however he has an underlying concern that jumping on the AGW bandwagon (in the extreme sense) just maintains capitalist exploitation on the one hand, and cooption of enviro groups on the other. See his blog http://climateguy.blogspot.com/

From his email to me:

The AGW science hoax will crash on its own (it already has). Green NOGs will adapt and develop new ways of serving capitalist exploitation. The only real battle now is with the finance sharks who are still pushing the project of a global carbon economy along with those wishing to confine and suppress China's emergence.

Also, a key article of his on global warming is Global Warming: Truth or Dare?


435 Dem Primaries 2012
Coffee Party Usa
TheRealNews.Com


[ Parent ]
his e-mail pretty much confirms his position (0.00 / 0)
as a denialist, no?

You make up your own mind.  

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
What do you mean by "denialist"? (0.00 / 0)
Do you mean:

a) Humans have no unambiguous, detectable effect on the planet's warmth, as a whole

or

b) Humans have an unambiguous, detectable effect on the planet's warmth, as a whole, but it's nothing to be overly concerned about

If you affix a flea to a large dog, and it will increase the net dog + flea weight. No scientist will deny that. However, if you want to calculate how deep a paw print such a dog can make, in sand, do you really need to care about the added weight of the flea?

According to Carter, most scientists that he knows fall into the b) category. If Rancourt falls into the a) category, but b) is generally true, I don't think I, personally, will get excited about that.  

435 Dem Primaries 2012
Coffee Party Usa
TheRealNews.Com


[ Parent ]
Neither (0.00 / 0)
I see it as denial of the fact that humans are, inexorably, part of the web of life that exists on this planet - perhaps in the universe.

Take a look around the world - human beings everywhere, rearranging the surface of the planet to suit our needs and desires. Can you name one other species that has altered the physical and chemical status of the planet in as short a time as humans?

It seems highly unlikely that the explosive (and it IS an explosion on the evolutionary time scale) alteration of the Earth and ecosystem produced by human's since our emergence from North Africa (apparently) would occur without significant effect. Big changes imply big changes - not no changes.


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Also, you mixed up Rancourt and Carter (0.00 / 0)
I quoted Rancourt. I emailed Carter about 20 hours ago, asking him to clarify his remark. Still no answer.

435 Dem Primaries 2012
Coffee Party Usa
TheRealNews.Com


[ Parent ]
What does it take to be recognized as a troll. (0.00 / 0)
This is tripe, right wing wacko tripe. Gag the buzzards on an offal wagon tripe.

What a waste of time.

And a waste for all the visitors who come here looking for left commentary, riddled with the stink of denialism and wacko.

Bann this.

--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
Watched both vids (0.00 / 0)
Unconvincing.

The first guy, Bob Carter, speaks in such generalities that its hard to pin him down.

Research science does not always provide results that are beyond question. One can always find some aspect of the experimental method, how data were collected, or point to some aspect that was not considered during interpretation. That's just the nature of the business. As a member of the research science community, Dr. Carter should understand this situation and to use that to make his political points on a TV show aimed at non-scientists is questionable.

In the scientific community, simply pointing out the "problems" with the dominant paradigm is not sufficient. One should present an alternative perspective, or model, that also explains the data at hand. Ideally, this new paradigm should be consistent with more data than the previous, or offer some other fundamental reason to drop the previous model. Dr. Carter does not fulfill this requirement. This doesn't prove he is lying, or misrepresenting, but it should give any rational person pause when considering his perspective.

Ian Plimer's video is another matter. I have to wonder why his first slide did not cite any institutional affiliation. Such is standard operating procedure for scientists speaking in public. The fact that he is also a notable anti-creationism proponent has little to do with the climate change issue. The "data" in his talk lacked any background as to how it was obtained, or by whom. Poor referencing is another sign that this guy does not pertain the the standards of the research community.

Overall, the laser-like focus on only one or two aspects of the issue, and questioning these without providing counter evidence or models, then drawing overarching and definitive conclusions from such sketchy, cherryhandpicked observations is, to a large extent, the antithesis of the scientific method.

I also note that neither one of these videos includes any questions of substance and therefore can only be taken at face value. Again - not consistent with the process of science.


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
USER MENU

Open Left Campaigns

SEARCH

   

Advanced Search

QUICK HITS
STATE BLOGS
Powered by: SoapBlox