Candidate Strength &The Party's Future: SUSA Presidential Match-Ups--A Deeper Look

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sat Mar 08, 2008 at 15:52


[NOTE: Bugs in Soapblox have prevented me from publishing this in its original form earlier this morning. Now with JPEGs in place of HTML tables.... ]

Surprise! Surprise!  The conventional wisdom around BOTH Democratic candidates is wrong.

Following up on Chris's post earlier this week, "New General Election Maps From Survey USA", here are a couple of maps visually displaying his breakdown into tiers, (and another pair of maps with furhter analysis in Part 2), with accompanying tables.  The big winner is.... Tom Schaller (see Whistling Past Dixie).

Schaller's non-Southern Strategy of isolating the GOP as an extremist regional party of the South is significantly furthered by Barack Obama, despite Obama's Kumbayah rhetoric to the contrary.  And this analysis will show just how much stronger this approach is than trying to win back the South as our top priority.

This is the one thing that's immediately evident--much more than with the simple who-wins-where maps.  It's not just that Obama's strengths alone reflect Tom Shaller's Non-Southern strategy.  It's a comparative thing: Clinton probably won't lose Oregon and Washington--those only lean McCain--but she'll have to fight for them, even as Obama continues the process of putting them away, while giving us a good shot at Nevada and beginning the process of solidifying New Mexico and Colorado.  Obama is going with the natural flow that Schaller has laid out.  In this sense, his strength is not that he's exceptional, but that his exceptional appeal is channelled in the normal direction for the Democratic Party to grow.

Clinton vs. McCain

Obama vs. McCain

OTOH, Clinton is clearly stronger in the South, winning two states to Obama's one, while putting Tennessee in play, just as he does North Carolina.  Most tellingly, however, is how many Southern states are solid for McCain vs. Obama--TEN!--as opposed for McCain vs. Clinton--just one!

This result is particularly ironic, given (a)  Obama's earlier claim that he could win Southern states that Clinton couldn't by increasing Southern black turnout and (b) the CW that Southern man are particularly hostile to Hillary Clinton, so she's death to the party in the South.

On the flip, tables to go with these maps.  AND, making the case even strong, maps and tables showing a comparison of Dem gains--and losses from 2004, which makes the pattern even stronger.

Paul Rosenberg :: Candidate Strength &The; Party's Future: SUSA Presidential Match-Ups--A Deeper Look
Here are the tables to go with the maps above.  First, with the states in alphabetical order, then in descending order of Democratic margins, and finally in descending order of Democratic margins within regions.


Sorting by Dem margin, we readily see that Clinton has margins of 10 or more in 9 states, compared to 14 for McCain.  And for margins of 6 or more, McCain's lead explodes to 22-12.

Again, sorting by Dem margin, we Obama has margins of 10 or more in 12 states, compared to 13 for McCain.  But for margins of 6 or more, Obama beats McCain 19 to 17.

Sorting within the regions makes it easier to compare how relative strengths differ geographically.  The only region Clinton dominates is the Northeast, 5-0 in states with 10-point margins or more.  McCain takes the Midwest 4-2, the South 4-1, and the West 6-1.  Although Clinton beats McCain under this scenario, we are back to being a regional party of the Northeast, plus California, in terms of where our base is.

With Obama, the story is radically different.  He sweeps the Midwest, 3-0, while doing even better than Clinton in the Northeast, 6-0, compared to her 5-0. He's weaker in the South, where McCain crushes him 9-0.  But he plays to a near standstill in the West, 3-4.  This represents real progress toward the goal Schaller lays out of isolating the GOP as a regional party of the South.

These tables alone are enough to show that Obama is well on his way to delivering real momentum in the direction of isolating the GOP in the South, which Tom Shaller calls for in Whistling Past Dixie.  This is, quite naturally, complicated considerably by Obama's stance of reaching out to these very same monsters.  (Sorry, Samantha!)

But the picture gets even clearer, if we shift out focus....

Margin Shifts--Clinton vs. McCain

We get an even clearer picture of the long-term trends the two candidates portend by focusing on how they compare to 2004.  On the regional level, what we find only further reinforces what we've already seen.

Margin Shifts--Obama vs. McCain

In addition to what we've seen above the fold, we see that Obama makes heavy gains in virtually all the plains and mountain states that remain red--just the sort of trend that's needed to help the state parties, so they in turn can help national candidates in elections to come.  From this perspective, his lead in North Dakota, rather than just being a fluke, is more of a leading indicator of where the whole region may be headed, if we play our cards right.

Of course, it's my thesis that this is a realigning election, the downside of which is that places we don't flip this time around may be harder for us in the future, just as it should be easier to hold those that we do flip.  This is not a hard-and-fast rule, of course.  Much depends on how we govern, and this is where Schaller's theory--to isolate the GOP as a georgraphically insular, isolated party--comes into its own, provided, of course, that it's actually followed.  While most of Obama's rhetoric speaks against his following of Schaller's advice, many supporters think things will play out differently, once it's clearly established that his bipartisan efforts have been rebuffed.  We shall see if we shall see.

Here are the tables, sorted in order of Dem margin gains since 2004, first nationwide, then by region.  Clinton loses 10 or more points since 2004 in just one state: Vermont.  In contrast, she picks up 10 or more points in 12 states.  

Obama loses ten points or more in two states, compared to 2004, twice what Clinton does.  But he picks up ten points or more in a whopping 22 states!

And, again, sorting within regions makes it easier to see the goegraphic trends.

Clinton cleans up in the South, posting gains of ten points or more in 10 of 15 Southern states.  Her only other 10-point-or-more gains come in two Midwest states.  She actually loses ground in the Northeast-coming this close to losing two states, not just one.

In 9 of 11 Midwest states, Obama picks up 10 points or more compared to 2004.  In the West, it's 7 out of 13.  The Northeast-already a Democratic stronghold, is pretty much a wash, with two big gains and two big losses.  Though one of the loses is less than ten, it moves Pennsylvania from a win to a loss.  In the South, he's 3-1.

A final thought:  Clinton's strength in the South can readily be countered by McCain choosing Huckabee as his running mate.  But there's no such obvious counter for Obama's non-Southern strength, and Huckabee gives McCain almost nothing in terms of regional help.  This serves as another reinforcement for Schaller's strategic thesis, showing a distinct short-term edge for the same candidate who does better in furthering his long-term goal as well.

Naturally, this is just an early set of polls.  But the pattern is compelling, and mode of analysis used should prove useful as the campaign continues.

Tags: , , , , , , , , , (All Tags)
Print Friendly View Send As Email
Congrads on getting this posted (4.00 / 1)
great analysis too

Funny (0.00 / 0)
On my browser this appeared in one line:

Surprise! Surprise!  The conventional wisdom around BOTH Democratic candidates is

my eyes then moved back to the left expecting the word to be "right".

I guess I've always assumed that Clinton was running the Gore/Kerry strategy and it would all come down the the same states we've always seen.  Did anyone expect him to do well in the south?  While black southern votes are great in the primaries it has been obvious that whites there, even in his own part, won't vote for him.  In the general this would obviously be a loss.

So when I saw these maps yesterday my first thought was conventional wisdom was correct.

Anyway, good analysis.  Certainly this will be conventional wisdom from here on out.


Wrong Convention, Obviously.... (0.00 / 0)
Those Klingons will do it to you every time!

[ Parent ]
Do this poll now and you will get a different result (0.00 / 0)
Sorry...you've worked so hard...but if SUSA conducted this poll after March 4th and not before you would have different and stronger results for Hillary Clinton....

When this was conducted she was behind Obama in the national tracking polls ....and now she is ahead. No way would this not have increased her vote and  her margins in places like the NW and Midwest and she would have gotten NH.

Obama could have stayed the same or gone up....but as is always self evident when polling the general election....whoever is ahead on the primary match ups is the person who does better that the other candidate in the general.  

I hate to throw cold water on your theory and hard work.....but I think this poll is just a will o' the wisp....a snapshot and tomorrow it will be quite different.  


[ Parent ]
Things Change, Sure (0.00 / 0)
But (a) this is a 30,000-person nationwide poll.  It may be many things, but a will o' wisp is not one of them.  However things change in the future, they passed through this state along the way, and it's a state that's incompatible with a number of theses.

Both Democrats beat McCain by a small EV margin, which is compatible with their national standing at this time, but do so in very different ways.  Those differences are quite real.  There is simply too much data in this poll to ignore.  If Clinton wins the nomination, McCain very well may have to pick Huckabee, so that the South is secure and he doesn't have to spend precious resources defending it.

OTOH, there's not much help against Obama in the West, since that's where McCain himself comes from, and he's still in trouble in neighboring Nevada, New Mexico and Colorado.  These things could change, of course.  Given how long it is till November, they almost certainly will.  But the warnings here are clear and any campaign would be foolish to ignore them.


[ Parent ]
I always appreciate your seriousness (0.00 / 0)
So will o' the wisp was a bad choice.

I just think that her numbers now would be better in states like Nevada, New Mexico and even Colorado than it was before March 4th.  I wasn't denying its validity pre March 4th but I think post March 4th her numbers improve everywhere.  I think she would win Washington, Oregon and NH.  John Kerry got those states so will she.  

I think she and Obama can both be transormational because what people are responding to is the Democratic party not just the candidate alone.

And I think too many underestimate the mobilization and enormous motivation of women in this election.  I think it took her almost losing to fully get them engaged because they hadn't really thought she was in danger before.  


[ Parent ]
Great analysis but... (0.00 / 0)
I think you misplace Obama's appeal to independents and Republicans as trying to win Southern states or to win over die-hard Republicans whereas I believe a more accurate view is that he's trying to get independents and Republicans that have Democratic leanings to more closely associate with the Democratic party. Now, one may argue that it's more of an association with Obama at the moment, but ultimately if someone votes for Obama in the GE, they're voting for a Democrat. That's why I think your analysis of Obama being more likely to lead a transformational re-alignment is correct.

I'd love to have a generation of voters considered 'Obama Republicans' (or probably more accurately 'Obama independents') that the Republicans will spend the next 20 years trying to figure out how to get them back.


[ Parent ]
Oops! (0.00 / 0)
That was supposed to be a reply to Paul's post.

Sorry!


[ Parent ]
It's Not That He's Trying To Win Southern States Per Se (0.00 / 0)
Although he HAS claimed that he would bring out record numbers of blacks, and that that would put different states in play.  Perhaps in North Carolina, but that's about it.

But the big picture is that he has put a lot of emphasis into his religious appeal.  And religiously-motivated conservatives are overwhelmingly Southern conservatives, as the GOP primary just so demonstrated so convincingly.  Those aren't the folks that Obama is reaching, however.

This is a persistent phenomena with Obama.  The folks he's reaching the most are not those he's reaching out for the most.


[ Parent ]
Read one of his books.... (4.00 / 1)

...........and you will understand why. His understanding of American political history, recent and older, approaches that of someone from the Ukraine instead of Chicago.

So I do not find it surprising to see him hit something he's not shooting at.

Peace, Health and Prosperity for Everyone.


[ Parent ]
I Thought There Were Lots Of Ukranians In Chicago... (0.00 / 0)
...so?

[ Parent ]
Care to elaborate? (0.00 / 0)
That is an intriguing comment, but I have no idea what you're talking about. Can you summarize whatever it is you're talking about, or do I have to read Obama's book?

[ Parent ]
Republicans that are religious, not the same (0.00 / 0)
Paul,

He's not targeting religiously-motivated conservatives - he's targeting independents and Republicans that are religious. There's a huge difference between the two groups.

And I would argue that a lot of his appeal to those self-identified independents and Republicans that are voting for him is that he doesn't hold their religious beliefs against them.

My pastor is a Democrat, so obviously you'd call him religious. But there is a majority of members of our congregation that are open to progressive ideas that don't necessarily call themselves Democrats. You can target these folks without giving up your ideals.

In summary, you can't lump all religious people into a single group.


[ Parent ]
Believe It Or Not (0.00 / 0)
I graduated from second grade some time ago.

Hard to believe, I know.


[ Parent ]
And your point is? (0.00 / 0)
I was trying to have a reasonable discussion and I get this?

[ Parent ]
Then Don't Say Stupid Shit Like This To Me: (4.00 / 1)
In summary, you can't lump all religious people into a single group.

I was fricken raised a Unitarian, and I forgot more about the diversity of religious practice and belief by the time I was 18 than most folks will ever know.

So, please, enough with the "now little man" routine.


[ Parent ]
And your reading comprehension sucks (0.00 / 0)
 Here's your quote

But the big picture is that he has put a lot of emphasis into his religious appeal.  And religiously-motivated conservatives are overwhelmingly Southern conservatives, as the GOP primary just so demonstrated so convincingly.

You're lumping all of his appeal into trying to attract religiously-motivated conservatives. And I'm saying he is trying to attract independents and conservatives that are religious. They're not the same! If you can't see that, I'd say you've forgotten more than you realize.


[ Parent ]
Look In The Mirror, Dude! (0.00 / 0)
Emphasis [in bold] added:
Here's your quote
   But the big picture is that he has put a lot of emphasis into his religious appeal.  And religiously-motivated conservatives are overwhelmingly Southern conservatives, as the GOP primary just so demonstrated so convincingly.

You're lumping all of his appeal into trying to attract religiously-motivated conservatives. And I'm saying he is trying to attract independents and conservatives that are religious. They're not the same! If you can't see that, I'd say you've forgotten more than you realize.

The no-brainer thing here is that you mindlessly equate my saying "a lot" with "all."  Well, "a lot" doesn't even necessarily equate "a majority of," so you really need to work on your own reading comprehension.

But beyond that, there's an actual, long-running critique of Obama that you are simply ignoring.  And that critique, quite simply, is that you don't have to bash secular humanists like me if all you are trying to do is "attract independents and conservatives that are religious."  The secular-bashing he engages in--which echoes that of his good friend Jim Wallis--is only needed to try to attract the religiously-motivated and identified conservatives who are the last folks he's going to be able to reach.

The folks at Talk2Action have written about this on numerous occasions.  Time to wake up and smell the coffee, dude!


[ Parent ]
Atheists (0.00 / 0)
Obama is the only candidate I've ever seen, anywhere, who defends non-believers.  Of course, you complained when he did, not liking the wording in the MLK speech.  In fact, I think you take the same quote as bashing secular humanists.

I think the term "bashing" has grown a new meaning during this primary.

The believer condemns the non-believer as immoral, and the non-believer chides the believer as intolerant.

Bash, bash, bash away.


[ Parent ]
Good Behavior On One Occassion Doesn't Erase Bad Behavior On Another (0.00 / 0)
His MLK Day speech was as good as he gets. And yes, it did fall short.  But even if it didn't, it wouldn't erase the past. As Frederick Clarkson explained, in "Barack Obama Steps In It":

Senator Barack Obama's big speech at an event sponsored by Call to Renewal, a group headed by Jim Wallis, author of God's Politics: Why the Religious Right Gets it Wrong, and Why the Left Doesn't Get It -- has received very mixed reviews and is the buzz of the blogosphere. There is much in Obama's speech that hits the right notes regarding the role of religion in a democratic pluralist society, but the speech is indelibly marred by propagating one of the central frames of the religious right.

The Washington Post reported:

   Sen. Barack Obama chastised fellow Democrats on Wednesday for failing to "acknowledge the power of faith in the lives of the American people," and said the party must compete for the support of evangelicals and other churchgoing Americans.

   "Not every mention of God in public is a breach to the wall of separation. Context matters," the Illinois Democrat said in remarks prepared for delivery to a conference of Call to Renewal, a faith-based movement to overcome poverty...

   At the same time, he said, "Secularists are wrong when they ask believers to leave their religion at the door before entering the public square."

   As a result, "I think we make a mistake when we fail to acknowledge the power of faith in the lives of the American people and join a serious debate about how to reconcile faith with our modern, pluralistic democracy."

The controversy that has erupted in response to Senator Obama's speech has helped to catalyze some things Talk to Action colleague Bruce Wilson and I have discussed for some time. (He will undoubtedly have much to say about all this as well.)

Obama and Jim Wallis before him are wrong to scapegoat "secularists" for the problems mainstream Christians and others have had in finding their voices. They are also wrong to allege that non-religious people are somehow chasing religious expression from public life. It is long past time to call a halt to this nonsense. Let's start today.



[ Parent ]
A cavet (0.00 / 0)
He's not done a whole of campaigning in the south yet.  We have seen that his grassroots ground game combined with Arena speaking tours can produce rapid, drastic polling changes. He hasn't set foot in Tennessee since campaigning for Ford in 2006.  I'd not be surprised if Ford turned him against the state for life, but that's another matter.

He didn't campaign in FL for obvious reasons.

MI, KY, and WV have not had primaries yet and have not yet seen much campaign activity.  Hillary is still coasting on familiarity and name recognition.

My biggest worry is that since Obama's campaign style requires him to actually be out on the ground in front of crowds to work, this prolonged primary fight is really hurting him in November.


[ Parent ]
wait...what? (4.00 / 1)
My biggest worry is that since Obama's campaign style requires him to actually be out on the ground in front of crowds to work, this prolonged primary fight is really hurting him in November.

Hold on here.  So a primary fight in a proportional representation system that forces the candidates to engage in retail politics all over the country in as many states as possible is bad for the guy who excels at the ballot box when he engages in retail politics and gets in front of as many people as possible?

Just, wow.


[ Parent ]
Agree with you !! (4.00 / 1)
Being a Canadian, I really don't get what these numbers and "distribution" mapping demonstrate.

Isn't it the bottom of the line totals that matter though?
I really don't get what do those regional maps show. The way they are presented seems to demonstrate the preferentials of one camp over the other.  However, the states vary in the number of votes (and in case of popular votes, each state has different population of voters too). I mean, how can the states be counted or compared on a one-to-one basis? So what does this Southern states predominance mean? I just can't rationalize it.

PS: My apology on our big mouth Harper administration on the NAFTA leak.  Our NDP party leader spoke the truth.  It's a stupid Harper's wagging to show his loyalty toward a Republican US leader. Disgusting, highly inappropriate and stupid act.


[ Parent ]
VP (0.00 / 0)
These maps should be a primary motivation for choosing Obama's VP.  He doesn't need anyone who appeals to Southerners (except, perhaps, Texas) but someone who appeals to the Mountain West and/or Latinos.

Another reason to pick Schwietzer! (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
I think you would see a big shift to Clinton... (0.00 / 0)
....in the West and Mountain West if she gets the nomination and campaigned there. Those areas are going Dem no matter what for reasons Sirota has been writing about and which are becoming more and more evident of late.

Looks like a lot of work and should provide a great baseline to track changes as we approach......

DOOMSDAY!

America's last chance to avoid the utter destruction of our economy and society by 'Darth' McCain and the 'DeathStar' of a Great Depression which every day seems more and more inevitable. And would become so with his ascension to 'General-in-Chief'.

I guess now we know the real reason Mr. Decider and his family are moving to Paraguay. If the economy goes down as hard as it seems it might....

He won't be safe here.

Hey! Maybe if the packs of troll-raters around here get their heads out and we can stop McCain and start working on that 'Change' Obama's allus bloviating about.

Whether he wants to or not.

But spewing venom about Hillary?

That's not gonna get it done folks.

Peace, Health and Prosperity for Everyone.


What venom? (4.00 / 2)
Do you even read what you post anymore?

[ Parent ]
I think he's referring to (4.00 / 3)
all those times Obama said McCain would be better than Clinton, because while McCain have crossed the "commander-in-chief threshold," the other Democrat hasn't. That and Obama's bizarre praise of McCain for how great of a guy he is and how they've been friends for such a long time.

[ Parent ]
It'll be hard to (4.00 / 2)
campaign in a state you've already called insignificant.

[ Parent ]
I think Chris made a very good point on this (4.00 / 1)
Against Obama, McCain's "solid" and "lean" states only add up to 123, while Obama's add up to 229. In a matchup against Clinton, the "solid" and "lean" states are of equal size: 201 for McCain, and 203 for Clinton. In other words, while McCain and Clinton appear evenly matched, McCain is only able to keep it close against Obama by running up a series of narrow wins in the toss-up states.

Obama has the ability to put a lot more things in play. He has also shown in this campaign that as he is seen more in each state his numbers tend to go up. For example in the swing state that knows him best, Iowa, he blows out McCain. He won't be able to give as much attention to every swing state as he did to Iowa but my point is that those numbers will go up. I also believe that this is a realigning election and I think these numbers give a lot more room for Obama to do the realigning. Let the GOP be the party of the south. We can turn the Midwest into the Northeast and make the West the land of the swing states.

When Democrats campaign hard in the West they win. Richardson, Ritter, Napolitano, Schweitzer, Tester, the Udalls and I'm probably forgetting a few people. Point is if we work the West hard we can win the West. And we can make this a realignment election.


Equally Important However (4.00 / 1)
Is how much better Clinton does in the South, and how little payoff there is there for Obama.  This is short-term, of course.  Seeds will be planted, yadda-yadda-yadda.

And I'm all about planting seeds.

But in terms of getting the sequence right--which is everything where strategy is concerned--it's clear that going head-to-head in South is not where the path to realignment lies.


[ Parent ]
Clinton's Southern Support (0.00 / 0)
"Most tellingly, however, is how many Southern states are solid for McCain vs. Obama--TEN!--as opposed for McCain vs. Clinton--just one!"

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the assumption here is that Obama's weakness in the South is due to the probability that a significant percentage of white male Dems (and maybe women too) will either not vote for him or in fact vote for McCain in a General Eelction. I don't disagree, but I don't think that's the whole story.

Clinton's relative strength in the South must also take into account her overwhelming national lead among white women: 58% to 37%, according to Chris' Democratic Nomination Campaign Composite Exit Poll http://www.openleft.com/frontP...

According to that analysis, white women are the largest bloc of the Dem electorate, at 35%.

I would suggest that, if Obama were the nominee, and poll respondents across the South could not support Clinton in any question, a very high percentage of white female Dems would in fact support Obama, bringing his Southern margins a lot closer to Clinton's current margins.  


Huh??? (0.00 / 0)
This are head-to-head matchups, of Obama v McCain and Clinton v McCain.

There is no Clinton in the first matchup and no Obama in the second.


[ Parent ]
yes I know (0.00 / 0)
but I think it's likely that when/if the Obama-McCain matchup is done on its own, with Clinton out of the running, more white female Dems will support Obama over McCain than say they do now.

[ Parent ]
Yeah, that was assumed by the poster, I think. (0.00 / 0)
The point is that people who support one dem candidate now are more likely to say that they will support McCain if the other dem candidate is the nominee than they are to actually vote for McCain in November.  I'm not saying I agree with the analysis, but I don't think it is entirely unfounded.

But with respect to the argument about southern white women: white women can be just as racist as white men, and to the extent that Obama's weakness in the south is because of white folks' racism, I don't see why white women would swing to Obama in the event that he is the nominee.  


[ Parent ]
An interesting number (4.00 / 1)
as a proxy for "electoral strength" could be the sum of margins, weighted by the electoral vote. So basically, just take the Democratic margin in each state, multiplied by the electoral votes from that state, add them up, and get a number.

Here's what I get: (this might've been a lot less tedious if the blog had let you use HTML tables...)

Clinton: +49

Obama: +1140

While it's a relief that both are in the positive, I think the picture here is obvious. To put these numbers in perspective, if someone were to win every single state by a margin of 10 points, that would result in a score of +5380 (or 5350, not sure how DC fits in: it's not included in the above totals because it wasn't polled); or alternately, -5380, if they were to lose by the same amount. In this context, "+49" isn't really far off from "completely even". (The obvious caveat is, for an extreme example, that you'd rather win 270 electoral votes by a 1 point margin while your opponent wins 268 by 50 than the reverse; but, especially this far out, that is not the sort of thing you can plan for or count on.)


Actually... (0.00 / 0)
I was planning on doing something in the way of that sort of analysis before the jackal ate my homework.

Now, I'm just too hungry, tired and behind on everything else... so thanks.

Anyway, here's the regional breakdown of that figure:

MW: Clinton: 7 / Obama: 901
NE: Clinton: 1291 / Obama: 1048
S: Clinton: 608 / Obama: 1296
W: Clinton: -104 / Obama: 810

This is perhaps what's most telling.  Again we see Obama's weakness all concentrated in the South, while Clinton's strength is all concentrated in the Northeast.

[And, no, I'm not going to spend the next 30 minutes trying to figure out what's with the strike-through in the "South" line above.]  


[ Parent ]
(Preview Is My Friend) (0.00 / 0)
Why did my friend have to be Nelson Muntz???

[ Parent ]
Are those Southern numbers (0.00 / 0)
supposed to be negative? They don't really add up otherwise... presumably, the software translates two minus signs into a strikethrough?

[ Parent ]
Yes, They're Negative... (4.00 / 1)
But I'm like, soooo burnt out on trying to tweak technical shit right now.

I wanted to do poltiical analysis... remember that?


[ Parent ]
Elaboration (0.00 / 0)
While most of Obama's rhetoric speaks against his following of Schaller's advice

Could you elaborate on this?  I don't remember Obama ever specifically pushing the south.  His unity message seems helpful to get those used to voting Republican to go his way wherever they live.

I know you disagree with this approach in general, but could you explain your reasoning why you think it seems geared to the south instead of the west?  I don't see any regional component to this at all.  (Or is that that point, it is 50 state, not anti-south?)


Simple: Schaller's Strategy Is A Polarization Strategy (4.00 / 1)
While Obama's strategy is based on "unity" and denial.

[ Parent ]
it's based on building solidarity (0.00 / 0)
which is supposed to be a bedrock principle for all leftist activity

[ Parent ]
Must A Missed It (4.00 / 1)
when I was at the 70's-style anti-military love-in.

[ Parent ]
Good strategy if you are a.... (0.00 / 1)

.......'leftist'. Kinda gets in the way if you are not.

Peace, Health and Prosperity for Everyone.

[ Parent ]
Paul, see my post above (4.00 / 1)
I think you're misreading Obama's appeal to independents and Republicans. It's not unity in the sense that we agree on everything, it's that we're Americans. He's made it clear that there are things that people will disagree on. You just don't have to demonize your opponent.

A great example of this is the work he has done with Coburn on governmental transparency. This is work that most progressives have argued for in the past, but it was accomplished by working with a Republican that is on the very right end of the political scale. Does this mean Obama is a closet conservative? Of course not. But it does show the advantage of not polarizing the other side so much that you can't get anything done.

You have to differentiate the vitrol expressed by Republican party leaders and talk show hosts from the sizeable portion of the day-to-day people that consider themselves Republicans. I live in a relatively conservative part of PA and unfortunately, I know a lot of Republicans. (But I'm trying to change that.) These aren't bad people. A lot of them don't like what Bush has done to the country. You can get some of them to vote for a Democrat, without changing your core values, by not making them out to be the devil reincarnate. This approach obviously will work better in some areas than others, but don't dismiss Obama's approach based solely on the more visible face of the far right.


[ Parent ]
Oh, Gosh! I Had No Idea! You See I've Been In A Cave For Nine Months! (4.00 / 2)
Please, dude, I know the rap.

I also know that Obama has no problem at all with dissing folks like me.

Plus, Paul Wellstone worked across the aisle, too.  So it's not like Obama invented the wheel or something.

As I have stated many times before, Obama fundamentally misdiagnoses both the causes of polarization and demonization and the fundamental cleavages beneath the surface in American politics.  There are plenty of things in common amongst voters that get factored out of the process as you go higher up the political pyramid.

The real disconnect is between everyday conservatives and the elites that represent them.  But Obama treats those elites with deference--even praise.  And this helps them keep a lock on misleading their flocks.  Western conservatives are a more cantakerous lot, so it stands to reason that they are easier for him to pick off.  His own strategy is less blatantly self-contradictory on that cultural terrain than it is down South.


[ Parent ]
I'm sorry, I'm just a rube (0.00 / 0)
Paul, you're missing the point. If you demonize the opposite side, you demonize everyone that is associated with that side. Yes, that includes the folks that one could reasonable win over. So you never have the chance to break them away.

Polarization doesn't get you to a realignment, it gets you to a 51-49 battle that goes on endlessly.


[ Parent ]
The simple fact is.... (0.00 / 0)

.....that there are many, many folks whom you will never 'break away....' just ain't gonna happen and running your primary campaign to appeal to such might..might get you to the GE...

But then you are left holding the bag when all those 'temporary Democrats' go home to the nice warm McCain cave. Plus the 'Great Uniter' doesn't seem to worried about 'uniting' at the moment:

http://www.mydd.com/story/2008...

I just find it mystifying that folks want to run a Democratic campaign using Republican memes, tactics and even....

votes.

Peace, Health and Prosperity for Everyone.


[ Parent ]
Basic math (4.00 / 1)
There are not enough self-identified Democrats to get anyone elected President. You can whine and moan about this fact or you can do something about it. And if you demonize the people you're trying to vote for you, it's kinda a hard job, now isn't it?

[ Parent ]
About 41% of the electorate (0.00 / 0)
Factor in the fact that around 20% of independents always vote Democratic and you're at about 47%. Republicans plus crypto-Republicans get you to 37%. Satan himself could win 25% of true independents, so yes, there ought to be enough self-identified Democrats to get anyone elected president.

NB. I do not necessarily endorse Satan for president

Forgotten Countries - a foreign policy-focused blog


[ Parent ]
I Don't Know, Dude (0.00 / 0)
Satan or John McCain?  Tough call!

It's like Spike said to Buffy, the first time he teamed up with her, in "Becoming, Part 2," vampires like to talk a tough game, end of the world and all that, but they enjoy things too much the way they are.

That's Satan for you.  But Mccain?  He just welcomed John Hagee's endorsement, and Hagee's just itching for Armageddon.

So, bottom line, I'd take Satan over McCain any day.


[ Parent ]
You Don't Have To Demonize To Criticize (4.00 / 1)
Especially if you make folks laugh.

Obama--and through him, millions of his supporters--has bought into the rightwing frame that simply talking about what Republican leaders actually do is demonizing them.

Well, it's not our fault that they've all got horns... and we're not talkin' tubas!


[ Parent ]
Oh, boy (4.00 / 1)
"I think you're misreading Obama's appeal to independents and Republicans. It's not unity in the sense that we agree on everything, it's that we're Americans. He's made it clear that there are things that people will disagree on. You just don't have to demonize your opponent."

Maybe I'm just a burned-out, cynical old Boomer, but this just seems to me breathtakingly naive and utterly missing the point. (Not you, Obama.)

I've heard very little of Democratic politicians demonizing Republicans, for starters, or suggesting we aren't all Americans, so I don't even know what problem this is supposed to be addressing.  On the contrary, hasn't our problem been that Democrats keep making nice with Republicans and have allowed themselves to get rolled over and over and over and over by them, even now that Dems are in the majority in Congress, so that their agenda keeps getting advanced and ours keeps getting "compromised" away?  How in the world is talking about unity and "we're all Americans" going to change that dynamic?

If Republicans and independents flock to Obama simply on the basis that he doesn't say mean things about them (nor does any other candidate, but we'll leave that for now) and is happy to have them even though they disagree on critical parts of the liberal or progressive agenda, what on earth have we gained?  Because he doesn't say mean things about them means they're going to reverse their beliefs that illegal immigrants are ruining the country and wealthy people shouldn't be taxed much and it would be a grand thing to bomb, bomb, bomb Iran and all the other things most people who still persist in voting Republican believe?  And I'm not talking about hopeless wing-nut right-wingers but those ordinary Republican voters we all keep hoping to reach somehow.

I don't get it.  I truly don't get the logic here.  I don't get the worldview or the sociology or the psychology or whatever it is.  Yes, he can get some of these people to vote for him in this election because he's been so vague about his agenda.  But if he gets into office this way, either he's going to have to throw the liberal agenda under the bus, or the moment he actually tries to advance it, most of these people will totally desert him.

And I absolutely don't buy the idea that getting these people to vote once for a Democrat is going to have any major impact on their long-term party identification or core beliefs, as I've heard some people argue.

Can somebody, anybody, explain to me what I'm so obviously missing here?


[ Parent ]
Upon reflection.... (0.00 / 0)
.............I do agree with this:

Naturally, this is just an early set of polls.  But the pattern is compelling, and mode of analysis used should prove useful as the campaign continues.

...bold by me. But in light of the chaos and rising noise from each side I think this set of number of little value except as a baseline as we move forward. I would hope you would update this post as the date comes in. That's were we'll be able to get some idea of which candidate is going to be strongest.

There is too far to go and to many chances for this:

http://www.mydd.com/story/2008...

....to happen or one or the other of these mistake-prone organizations to  put their foot in it to make any useful predictions now.

Can't emphasize it enough both these candidates can lose to McCain which in and of itself is an indictment of the 'Democrat' Party. Just have to make the best of a bad, bad deal.

Peace, Health and Prosperity for Everyone.


Your right... (0.00 / 0)
To much time for things like this and this and this to happen.

[ Parent ]
Yes! (0.00 / 0)

......and the important thing to remember is that the sorts of incidents your referenced and here's one for the other side:

http://www.mydd.com/story/2008...

Don't even have to be true.

They just have to be believed.

Peace, Health and Prosperity for Everyone.


[ Parent ]
North Dakota (0.00 / 0)
I am sorry - really think something is wrong with that North Dakota poll - I know Bryon Dorgan and all - but a Democrat is not going to carry North Dakota in a Presidential election this year or any time soon.  Realignment- right

No, Not Necessarily (0.00 / 0)
First off, there doesn't have to be anything "wrong" with a poll to get an unrepresentative result.  In fact, the math says that you will get unrepresentative results if you keep polling long enough.  It's guaranteed.  

Second, though, that's the whole purpose of this kind of analysis, to see the larger patterns that are submereged in the less nuanced picture that just asks who won what.  All those other huge gains in other Plains states say that it's not that far out.  In fact, it's only a one point larger gain than he got in Nebraska (31 to 20).


[ Parent ]
First (4.00 / 1)
great work.  Can I get your spreadsheet - otherwise I will have to enter the data into my own?  

The SUSA poll in Florida is clearly wrong - most other polling shows Clinton and Obama trailing.  

If there is one thing I could say to those outside of Florida it is this:  Democrats have won two statewide races since 2002, and one of thoses was a senate race against Kathleen Harris.

This is a trending Republican State.


Florida is not a swing state! (4.00 / 1)
Unfortunately, I think you are correct. There are a number of states, such as VA, CO or OH, that one could say are trending blue more than FL. (And it pains me to say that since I have family in FL that are Democrats.)

[ Parent ]
Yeah, Sure. (4.00 / 1)
Email me. (Address on my users page).  I'll get it to you later tonight.

[ Parent ]
Yup (0.00 / 0)
Clinton's advantage in FL is that seniors vote for her, and we have a lot of seniors. But couldn't this be neutralized by Ancient John McCain, especially given her recent arguments that she's quite a bit like McCain?

Obama might take the state (lots of independents), but he's gonna have to get his butt down here and campaign, and he's gonna have to do something to revitalize the state party, which (as far as I can tell) is a millstone around every local Dem candidate's neck.


[ Parent ]
no offense, but... (4.00 / 1)
Early GE head-to-head polls are pretty much useless because the results are heavily biased by the events of the primaries. Therefore any downstream analysis is pretty much a waste of time.

The truth about McCain

Nothing Is Useless (4.00 / 2)
Everything has some value and some limitations, and the folks around here are pretty sophisticated about such matters, so it behoves you to provide a somewhat more sophisticated critique than you have presented here.

I'm not pretending that this is how the race will turn out, only that it shows us something useful about the current state of play.  And since I'm primarily comparing current snapshots to current snapshots or to a common baseline, I think that I'm holding the noise down to pretty much the lowest possible level.

Indeed, the whole point of doing this sort of analysis is try to get the maximum value out of an admittedly thin data set far away from election day--as well as setting up an analytical framework that should be good for tracking all the way through to election day.


[ Parent ]
Re: Nothing Is Useless (0.00 / 0)
"as well as setting up an analytical framework that should be good for tracking all the way through to election day."

Good point there.

The truth about McCain


[ Parent ]
In 2004 (4.00 / 2)
I tracked every poll from January to November.

There were 99 polls taken in Feb, March and April.
Of those 99 polls, in only 5 did a candidate reverse a 5 point lead and win and two of those instances where from a pollster I came to question (the Wisconsin Badger Poll).

There is every reason to think that this cycle will be more volatile (since there is no incumbent) but I do think you can learn about which states are in play.


[ Parent ]
Unweighted maps (0.00 / 0)
I thought after 2004 ther was a general feeling that straight area maps unweighted by electoral votes were visually misleading and should be avoided?

sPh


My QWERTY Keyboard Made Me Do It! (0.00 / 0)
Georgraphic reality is soooo biased!

[ Parent ]
Not sure what you mean by that? (0.00 / 0)
> Georgraphic reality is soooo biased!

Not sure what you mean by "reality"?  Using straight area maps (as was explained in "How to Lie With Charts" circa 1940 - remember the money bag graph vs. the bar chart example?) gives Montana three times the weight of Michigan when in reality Michigan's population is 10 times larger than Montana's.  The extra electoral votes due to Senators change the raw density a bit but Michigan still has 5.2 times the electoral votes of Montana - a visual distortion of 16:1.

sPh


[ Parent ]
Dude! (0.00 / 0)
I grew up with Mercator projections, okay?  No need to lecture.

But you come on all elitist like that, you're just asking for the snark.

Now, me, I just copied the maps Chris put up a couple of days ago, and recolored them by hand using a crappy freeware paint program.  This was a BIG step up from Chis just listing the acutal margins underneath the blue/red maps.

So... context, dude, context.  You want to help a starving writer out with donations of all the software needed to whip out your PC maps, just by pasting los numeros into el spreadsheet?  Be my guest!  Donations always welcome, if not always asked for.

But, 'till then.... suffuh!

Just like the rest of us.


[ Parent ]
Too bad you have to destroy your good work (0.00 / 0)
> I grew up with Mercator projections, okay?
>  No need to lecture.
>
> But you come on all elitist like that, you're
> just asking for the snark.

Very good analysis, and it must have been a ton of work.  Thanks for posting it.

Too bad you have to destroy it with your attitude by "asking for the snark".

sPh


[ Parent ]
Whatever, Dude (0.00 / 0)
First it was my unpardonable sin of using a standard geographical map.  Now it's my snark.

But, at least you gave me props for the actual work.

In this case, one out of three ain't bad.


[ Parent ]
Let's call a spade a spade (0.00 / 0)
If you look at that map, what jumps out at you?  Hillary's map is basically a repeat of the last four contests, minus OR/WA and +AR?  While Obama's is a game-changer, he may never have intended to hit the Republicans down the fracture line of the old south, but he does.  Maybe, not having spent a great deal of time in the South, he didn't realize that the bigotry may be less showy and in-your-face than it used to be, but it's all still there.

Hillary will run the 4-state strategy, trading temporary "Blue" status in AR (home state) and WV (flaming bigots who may or may not remember they're actually misogynists as well by the General) for the final slide into red of WA and OR.  And it doesn't really matter who she picks as VP.

Obama, on the other hand, will have to watch the South slide deeper into hell red, but he yanks a bunch of softening "blue" states back from the brink and with the right VP could yank the entire center of the country back into play.

Is that the game he thought he was going to play in the general?  No.  On the other hand, one of the purposes of the 50-State Strategy is to expose opportunities you didn't know you had, and give you the positioning to exploit them.  So he wanted the South, but delivered the West.  I can live with that.


Not really sure (0.00 / 0)
I am not really sure you can trust any general election polls at this point.  Nor, after 2004, am I sure you can trust any answers Republicans give to poll-takers.  What Republicans, even the few "reasonable Republicans" left out there, say to pollsters (and neighbors, coworkers, etc) and what they do in the voting booth are two very different things.  I know a number of conservative rural people who like Obama, but when McCain is hitting guns and gays and questioning Obama's God will that like overcome their reflex to vote R?

sPh


[ Parent ]
In Short, Obama's Strengths Are Those of The Democratic Party (0.00 / 0)
The ones that Schaller pointed out in Whistling Past Dixie back when Obama would have lost every state but Illinois (and, of course, DC) to McCain.

Meaning that Obama has grown into being a candidate who can deliver the specific geographic transformation that Schaller pointed out.

When you have a rhetoric that says one thing, but a material reality that says another, it's always best to trust the material realityt first, and seek to understand why that rhetoric works within that reality.


[ Parent ]
MENU

OpenLeft in your inbox!

 

Or, subscribe to each author individually.

PREMIUM AD

ADVERTISEMENTS



SEARCH

   

Advanced Search

OPENLEFT VIDEO WALL
Donna Edwards Thanks OpenLeft


Russ Feingold on the New FISA Legislation


Jon Conyers on Impeachment


Al Franken Thanks Blue Majority


FCC Commissioner Michael Copps on Pearl Jam, Net Neutrality


Darcy Burner on the FISA Legislation

More OpenLeft video...