I take your point Chris… (4.00 / 2)

……..and it is an important one. One that I found at least theoretical evidence to indicate that that this sort of deliberate undermining of the trust, which plays a tremendously important role in every human transaction, is bad for not just politics but for society as  whole. I blogged about it in my post:

‘Theory of Pie’.

Turns out that Jon Stewart was more right than many assumed when he asked Fucker Carlson to ‘stop it…you’re hurting America…’ in that long-ago confrontation.

I don’t know who this Patrick Healy assclown is, nor since he ‘blogs’ for the NYT do I care, but this sort of dissemination of false information needs to be condemned and highlighted for what it is.

Dangerous to the body politic.

We all know this I believe but I doubt we assign it enough importance in the welter of insane self-aggrandizement behavior we are seeing in Versailles, in business, in culture….everywhere you look.

It’s ‘trust no one….’ beware ‘the other….’ and like I said…

This is dangerous to everyone.

 

Peace, Health and Prosperity for Everyone.

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by: ACitizen @ Thu Dec 20, 2007 at 23:55:50 PM CST

 

I agree as well (0.00 / 0)

Clinton has never offered any time line on our withdrawal and refuses to make any commitment to leave Iraq, even by 2013.  For advice on Iraq, she relies on persons like retired Gen. Jack Keane, one of the architects of the surge.  Other advisers to Clinton see our troops occupying Iraq for another decade.  See http://www.dailykos….

And of course she voted for the war and has never admitted her vote was a mistake.  So tell me why should anyone put their faith and confidence in Clinton trust to remove our forces from Iraq?

What upsets me is the MSM has marginalized Richardson because of his views on Iraq or worse. The Des Moines Register accused Richardson of pandering to get the vote of anti-war voters. See http://www.desmoines…

Yet now the ultimate MSM candidate has suddenly seen the light on Iraq and their response is to highlight Clinton’s flip?  No, it is to wonder if Richardson really isn’t running for VP.

Richardson has been consistent from Day 1 of the campaign that he would promptly pull ALL US forces out of Iraq. 

Here is his press release. 

CEDAR RAPIDS, IA– New Mexico Governor and Democratic Presidential candidate Bill Richardson today issued the following statement on Senator Hillary Clinton’s drastic change to her position on the Iraq war:

“Senator Clinton’s statement that we could ‘certainly get all the troops out within a year’ is a stunning flip-flop from what she has been saying all along. She consistently has called for leaving troops in Iraq to fight al-Qaida, train Iraqis, and protect U.S. assets. Has that suddenly been abandoned? If so, why has she changed her mind?

“In a September debate, she said that she could not commit to getting our troops out in five years, let alone in one year. Has anything changed about the logistics besides her position in the polls? It is clear that she is responding directly to my latest ad and my statements that she repeatedly has called for leaving thousands of troops in Iraq indefinitely. Rather than defending her position, apparently she simply has changed it.”

Since entering the race, Governor Richardson consistently has called for bringing all of our troops home from Iraq, a monumental diplomatic effort to reach a political reconciliation that could be enforced by a multinational peacekeeping force, and a donor conference to infuse the capital necessary to rebuild Iraq.

Recent statements on Iraq by Senator Clinton:

  *

  “Clinton: U.S. troops needed in Iraq beyond 2009”
  http://www.cnn.com/2…
  March 15, 2007.

  “If elected president, Sen. Hillary Clinton said, she would likely keep some U.S. forces in Iraq in a supporting role after 2009 because America has “a remaining military as well as a political mission” that requires a presence there.”

  * “A Duty to Mislead: Politics and the Iraq War.” By Ted Koppel. All Things Considered. June 11, 2007.
  http://www.npr.org/t…

  “But I ran into an old source the other day who held a senior position at the Pentagon until his retirement. He occasionally briefs Senator Clinton on the situation in the Gulf. She told him that if she were elected president and then reelected four years later, she would still expect U.S. troops to be in Iraq at the end of her second term.”

  * “Democratic Field Says Leaving Iraq May Take Years.” By Jeff Zeleny and Marc Santora. The New York Times. 12 August 2007.

  “Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York would leave residual forces to fight terrorism and to stabilize the Kurdish region in the north … But she has affirmed in recent months remarks she made to The New York Times in March, when she said that there were ”remaining vital national security interests in Iraq” that would require a continuing deployment of American troops.”

  * “Democratic Rivals Caution Against Swift Iraq Pullout; Little Rancor Seen in Iowa Debate.” By Anne E. Kornblut. The Washington Post. 20 August 2007.

  “Clinton, Edwards and Obama said in effect that they supported Biden’s position, cautioning that it will be necessary to leave some troops behind to assist Iraqi forces and Iraqis who have helped Americans on the ground.”

  * “If Iraq Falls.” By Josef Joffe. Wall Street Journal. 27 August 2007.

  “Listen to Hillary Clinton, who would leave “residual forces” to fight terrorism. Or to Barack Obama, who would stay in Iraq with an as-yet-unspecified force.”

  * “Democrats’ Struggle to Change Course in Iraq Had Produced Much Debate, Few Results.” By Shailagh Murray and Dan Balz. The Washington Post. 10 September 2007.

  “Asked on Jan. 17 whether she supported a recommendation by the bipartisan Iraq Study Group to remove all combat forces by the spring of 2008, Clinton replied, “I’m not going to support a specific deadline.””

  * “General Gets Rough Ride as Senators Fight for High Ground Over Election.” By Tom Baldwin. The Times (London). 12 September 2007.

  “Indeed, both Mr Obama and Mrs Clinton — despite promising to end the war — acknowledge that they would retain a “residual force” in Iraq for some years.”

  * “Planning for Defeat: How Should we Withdraw from Iraq?” By George Packer. The New Yorker. 17 September 2007.

  “In the view of most Democrats, the inevitability of reduced troop numbers, the political stalemate in Baghdad, and the dwindling of public support in America require that a withdrawal begin soon. All the Democratic candidates for President have declared that they will end the war… The report did not impose a timeline, but others have tried to do so. In the Senate, two Democrats — Jack Reed, of Rhode Island, and Carl Levin, of Michigan — have introduced an amendment to a defense-appropriations bill which would require troop withdrawals to begin within four months of the bill’s passage, leaving behind only a “limited presence.” Among its co-sponsors are three Republican senators and three Democratic Presidential candidates: Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, and Joseph Biden.”

  * “Clinton: I won’t fund Iraq war without withdrawal plan” http://beta.cnn.com/…. September 23, 2007.

  “Clinton said, if elected president, she would end the conflict ‘as quickly and responsibly as I can,’ but said some U.S. forces would likely remain as trainers, to protect Americans and to battle Islamic militants loyal to al Qaeda.”

  * “Hitting All the Sunday Talk Shows, Clinton Says a Lot but Reveals Little.” By Anne E. Kornblut. The Washington Post. 24 September 2007.

  “Asked by ABC’s George Stephanopoulos whether she would withdraw all U.S. troops from Iraq during a first term as president, Clinton (D-N.Y.) gave a simple answer: She did not know.”

  * “Clinton’s Game of Dodgeball.” By David S. Broder. The Washington Post. 30 September 2007.

  “During the debate, she rarely came out of a defensive crouch, as if determined to protect her favored position. Answering the first question, she said her goal would be to withdraw all American troops from Iraq by 2013, but “it is very difficult to know what we are going to be inheriting” from the Bush administration, so she cannot make any pledge — as Richardson and others feel free to do. Troops might be needed for counterterrorism work for many years.”

  * “Democrats Try to Play Up War Stance.” By Angie Drobnic Holan. Saint Petersburg Times. 2 October 2007.

  “As time has gone by, Clinton has urged more forcefully for withdrawal. During the most recent debate, she said she would begin redeployment immediately if elected. Nevertheless, Clinton resists setting deadlines or timetables for withdrawal.”

  * “The Value of an Exit Strategy; Clarity on Iraq Could Make Biden and Richardson Contenders.” The Washington Post. 2 October 2007.

  “At a debate last Wednesday, each of them refused to pledge that American troops would be out of Iraq even by the end of her or his first term. If the troops will still be there, what strategy would they be advancing?”

  * “Clinton’s 2008 Lead is Clear, Though Her Policies Often Aren’t.” By Peter Nicholas. Los Angeles Times. 4 October 2007.

  “We must begin to end the war in Iraq and bring our troops home as quickly and responsibly as we can,” the New York senator said. Her call to “begin to end the war” left Clinton substantial maneuvering room — and since then she has refused even to commit to withdrawing all U.S. troops by 2013, the end of the next president’s first term.”

http://www.richardso…

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by: Stephen Cassidy @ Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 00:53:46 AM CST

 

The poll you saw! (0.00 / 0)

Penn must have read the same poll as you.

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by: humphrey @ Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 01:26:53 AM CST

 

The real reason for cynicism (4.00 / 1)

While I agree that the utter fecklessness of the American media class fuels much of the cynicism in the coverage of political campaigns and the positions that politicians take, there is a much darker rationale for cultivating cynicism in the body politic. As Tony Benn points out in the movie Sicko, there are two ways that the ruling establishment controls people and discourages them from expressing their political views and voting for candidates who will reflect those views in their actions. One way is by making people afraid (Hello! “War on Terror”!). The other is by demoralizing them. Whether Mr. Healy is aware of it or not, his cynical observations are not the sharp-eyed views of a wise observer but the mere parroting  of the ruling establishment’s careful messaging to the electorate to blow-off candidates who take progressive stands.
Here’s the link to the Benn comments:
http://www.youtube.c…

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by: jeffbinnc @ Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 08:53:46 AM CST

 

The Issue Of Iraq (0.00 / 0)

I think there is a substantial fundamental disconnect with the issue of Iraq and Democrats, especially the bloggers. Having pondered it and discussed it quite a bit, here’s where I net out.

Over a year ago, ‘we’ did our job. What I mean is that those outside of DC, those of us with other jobs but a full time passion for making the word a better place, raised money, volunteered and worked, hard, to get Democrats elected

And they didn’t do a damm thing about Iraq as we know all too well.

So, now, this frustration has turned into apathy about the war, and $70 billion supplementals to the supplementals go by the wayside,

there was a moment a year ago when the DC Democrats could have hitched onto the energy and done something but they didn’t and that time may be lost forever.

Finally, if you believe in ending the war, you better support Richardson at 8%, 5% or 1%. I frankly don’t trust the other 3 to conclusively end it.

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by: jamesboyce @ Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 09:12:35 AM CST

 

Only SMALL MINDS do not change! (0.00 / 0)

It would be a GOOD thing — not a flip-flop — if Hillary changes her mind and supports getting all troops out of Iraq today.

Only very small minds do not change, even as the world and circumstances change.

We have bought-in to the notion that a “flip flop” is a bad thing. That it is “better” to have made up one’s mind and stayed on a position, no matter what the circumstance.

If Hillary changes her mind and joins Richardson in saying “all troops out of Iraq” — let us praise her wisdom and cheer her on!!

Remember the AA Serenity Prayer:

Grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.

No more chastizement for changing positions (and moving in a good direction) when new information, wisdom and study of the situation warrants it.

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by: MS @ Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 11:16:57 AM CST

 

Depends…. (0.00 / 0)

…if the change is brought about by thoughtful reflection – I agree with you.  But, if its brought about by the same kind of political calculation that her initial support for the invasion of Iraq and subsequent “change” of position, then I don’t.

Basically, I don’t trust Clinton to actually follow through on ANY of her proposals, or positions, because she seem to blow with the political winds.

Some of us are crazy… or maybe we take turns.

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by: SpitBall @ Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 12:20:11 PM CST

[ Parent ]