Framing is thinking, not just communicating: Oil spill/global warming edition

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sat May 15, 2010 at 12:00


Six years ago, cognitive linguist George Lakoff published a book that caused a sensation, but ultimately failed to have the impact that it should have.  One of the reasons was that progressives who should have known better misunderstood Lakoff's discussion of framing as only being about messaging, which is completely false.  Of course framing is very important when it comes to messaging, but if you think that framing is only about messaging, then you can simply dismiss it as yet another consultant's trick.  You can even denounce it as immoral--as Booman appeared to do  in the discussion section of this diary.  But as Lakoff himself tried to explain, framing involves our own understanding of things as well as how we communicate to others.

There's nothing terribly new about recognizing this. Indeed, historian Thomas Kuhn's 1963 classic, The Structure of Scientific Revolutions, which coined the term "paradigm shift" is all about the importance of framing in science:  Scientific paradigms are conceptual frameworks that define what the basic elements of study are.  They are not about communicating to others.  They are about how scientists themselves think about what they are doing.  This weekend, I want to give two different examples of this in action.  I want to illustrate two different ways in which framing can matter.  In the first, I want to talk about contrasting frames that can be virtually interchangeable in some situations, but that nonetheless take us in very different directions, so that their formal compatibility masks a pragmatic divergence.  What these sorts of divergent frames show is that frames are ultimately rooted in purposive action, and reflect the logic of that action--a point that William James made repeatedly over 100 years ago.

I know you're probably thinking, "What the fuck is he talking about?" But I promise to make it very clear very quickly--as soon as I tell you what's to come in the next diary, tomorrow.  In that one I want to talk about contrasting frames are not virtually interchangeable, where it's literally impossible to understand one of the frames in terms of the other.  (In an even more confusing case, it's impossible to understand either of the frames in terms of the other--which is mostly what interested Kuhn.  But I'll leave that topic for another time.)

Two Equivalent Coordinate Systems

There's a simple mathematical example of contrasting frames that can be virtually interchangeable in some situations, but that nonetheless take us in very different directions:  The use of two different coordinate systems to describe the number plane.  The number plane is what we get when we place two number lines at right angles to one another, like this:



(From Wikipedia)

It's also called the "Cartesian Plane," after philosopher/mathematician Rene Descartes, who first invented/discovered it.  The two number lines are called the x- and y- axes, the point they cross at is called the origin, and it's given the value 0 on both axes.  We say it has coordinates 0,0. These are called "Cartesian coordinates."

But it turns out that there's another way to think about the number plane, using what are called "polar coordinates".  

Paul Rosenberg :: Framing is thinking, not just communicating: Oil spill/global warming edition
Every point in the plane that can be described in terms of an x,y coordinate pair can also be described in terms of polar coordinates: One coordinate is the distance from the origin, the other is  the position on a circle drawn around the origin.  



(From Wolfram Mathworld)

The circle is drawn with a radius of one, and it's called the "unit circle".  Because the radius is 1, the circumference is 2pi [I'm not using the Greek symbol to avoid worrying about font and browser compatibility issues.]  And for that reason, the coordinate is generally given in units of pi, which is equal to 180 degrees.

Because the same point can be described in either coordinate system, the coordinate systems are equivalent.  There is no point in one coordinate system that doesn't exist in the other.  So whatever operation you perform on a point, moving it to another position--say by flipping it over on the x-axis--can also be described in either coordinate system, and the descriptions in each coordinate system are equivalent.  But that doesn't mean they are equally transparent or easy to understand.  In particular, adding points together is quite straightforward using Cartesian coordinates.  You add the x-coordiates together to get the new x-coordinate, and add the y-coordinates together to get the new y-coordinate. But there's nothing that simple you can do using polar coordinates. On the other hand, polar coordinates make it very easy to calculate what happens when you rotate a point around the origin:  the distance coordinate remains constant, while coordinate on the unit circle increases or decreases by the amount rotated, depending on the direction of rotation.

Of course, that's only the beginning.  The fact that these two basic operations are much easier in one coordinate system than the other leads to a whole lot of other consequences that have nothing to do with the number plane itself, and everything to do with how operations on it are described.  And when you add a third dimension--creating a number space--the divergence only grows greater.

Carbon Tax vs. "Cap and Trade"

So what's this got to do with oil spills and global warming, which you may have noticed from the diary's subject line?  The answer is fairly simple, although the analogy is not perfectly exact.  Some time ago Mark Matson made the point that the carbon tax and cap-and-trade approaches were virtually identical to one another.  He was arguing against my advocacy of the carbon tax, and he was calling attention to the same sort of basic identity that exists between the number plane described by Cartesian coordinates on the one hand, and polar coordinate on the other.   There really is a starting point where the differences are relatively trivial, if not none-existence.  But as the example of the number plane and operations on it suggest, even if the there were no difference at all in the fundamental reality, differences in how that reality is described can lead to very different pragmatic results, making some things very easy to do and others very hard, depending on which approach is adopted.

So it is with carbon taxes versus cap-and-trade.  Conceptually, at the most simple, cap-and-trade limits emissions, and lets the price vary as it will as a result, while a carbon tax sets the price, letting emissions vary as they will as a result.  The two can be made equivalent by dynamically varying the availability of permits (or scaling the amount of pollution they're good for) on the one hand, or dynamically varying the tax rate on the other.  In theory, at least, the two can be made perfectly identical. But the concepts involved are quite different, and they lead in quite different directions, according to what each makes easier and more natural to do.

The carbon tax approach derives from the "polluter pays" principle, which in turn hearkens back to Arthur Cecil Pigou's concept of externalized costs.  It holds those responsible who create harms for others, and by doing so it seeks to make the market price of goods reflect their true costs, so that markets work more like they should.  It openly affirms and highlights both the inadequacies of the marketplace and the responsibility of the polluters at the same time that it seeks to correct both.  The end message is not one of absolute condemnation, but of manageability under law. Markets are made to work by treating them pragmatically, rather than as objects of ideological worship.  And corporations are made to act morally and responsibly by making it more profitable for them to do so.

OTOH, the cap-and-trade approach creates a "right" to pollute--a "right" to harm others. This is not just morally repugnant, it opens the doors for a whole string of other odious developments.  Once there are such "rights", there is the question of allocation naturally and immediately arises: Who gets them, how and why?  There are no such natural questions with a carbon tax: it's the carbon itself that is taxed.  This is not to say that all questions are immediately answered, only that the basic principle is settled, and the hueristics for exact rule-making are clearly indicated.

But nothing similar obtains with cap-and-trade permits  Indeed, the existence of such permits has facilitated the ease of argument that they should simply be given to those who need them most--the ones who are already polluting the most.  There can appear to be a kind of "neutral" logic to this, even though the end result is that those who have created the problem in the first place are now being rewarded for it.

If the logical equivalency of the original comparison held, then polluters would simply have to pay for all pollution permits, the basic question would not even arise, although the means of purchasing--auctions or whatever--would still be debatable.  But the logical equivalency does not hold, for the same reason that polar coordinate and Cartesian coordinates don't lend themselves readily to the same sorts of operations.  Once you are talking about a permit market, then all sorts of other activities related to these sorts of markets (including, possibly, speculative bubbles) begin to kick in. Generating credits by "off-sets" to preserve rain forests or whatever is another sort of thing that comes naturally to such a system--with all the opportunities for double-counting, fraud, and the like.  Which, by the way, loses the original advantage claimed by the cap-and-trade approach--the assurance that it would limit emissions.

While all these sorts of abuses are of course possible under a carbon tax system, it's much harder to make them seem natural.  They are not part of the inherent logic that flows from the polluter pays/externalized costs perspective.  And over time, inherent logic--a result of how issues are framed--has cumulative impacts that completely overwhelm the fact of formal similarities, even identities that may exist outside of how they are framed.

Oil Spills and Other Minutia

The situation with oil spills is relevant to the larger global warming framing issue as a micro-example of the larger problem, and how the "polluter pays" principle fails to be followed. Oil spills are a classic example of how energy companies do not pay the costs they externalize onto society and the environment in a wide variety of ways--as we are now discovering with new wrinkles emerging every couple of days.  It could and should be quite different:  They could pay every red cent of the costs they impose on others, plus punitive damages when conditions warrant it--and that would be the case if the "polluter pays" principle remained our guideline throughout.

Instead oil companies enjoy multiple forms of protection against being held responsible. They are allowed to seek signatures on voluntary waivers of the right to sue, as BP was caught doing for the princely sum of $5,000.  They have liability absurdly limited by law to $75 million, and when Congress tries to move to change the law, we are greeted with specter of bullying poor, non-existing mom-and-pop oil drilling companies--who would not be primary targets in the first place, anyways, but absurd shaggy-dog tales are much more readily inserted in the cap-and-trade framework than in the carbon tax one.

And so the oil companies have gotten themselves exempted from any realistic environmental review.  We can see these as any number of different shenanigans that oil companies pull--much like any other companies routinely do.  Or we can see them as variations on one central theme: the theme of avoiding the payment of the external costs they foist onto the rest of society in order to keep making their obscenely high profits--profits that are now threatening to undermine the human habitability of our planet.

Conclusion and Looking Forward

The two different frameworks discussed here reflect different ways of looking at the same problem space, and like the choice of polar or Carterian coordinates, the choice between these frameworks goes a long way toward pre-determining what sorts of problems will be easy to solve, and what sorts will be hard.  It's my argument here that the carbon tax approach makes it relatively easy to solve problems of responsibility and proper assignment and internalization of externalized costs.  And this, in turn, makes it relatively easy to harness the power of the marketplace:  Once the full, externalized lifecycle costs of all energy sources are internalized, the relative benefits of clean energy and energy efficiency will be reflected in prices, and market forces will become powerful allies in the necessary transformational process.

OTOH, the cap-and-trade approach makes it relatively easy for the problematic greenhouse gas polluting industries (not to mention other types of polluters, who are ignored) to adjust their business models.  It is designed primarily for their benefit--along with that of ancillary businesses, such as emissions market traders and the like--and only secondarily for the benefit of others, particularly the general public good.  Designing the system to suit the needs of the polluting industries may make it easier to pass legislation, but only makes even harder for the more important set of goals to be achieved.

Please note that cap-and-trade system is not more in line with "free-market" principles.  If anything, the carbon tax system is much more "free-market" oriented: once the externalized costs are internalized, the the market incentives become the central driving force in directing us toward a sustainable future.  Although the existing polluting power industries will certainly use "free-market" rhetoric as much as possible, what they are arguing for is actually a continuation of extremely self-serving and environmentally destructive subsidies, benefiting themselves at the expense of the general public and the environment, as well that of potential clean energy competitors.

There is a broader framework to be invoked here, relevant to corporations more generally, and that's the framework of psychopathy, which ties into the second diary I will be posting tomorrow.  Put simply, for-profit corporations are structured to act like psychopaths. If we were to revise the rules of their basic structuring, we could alter that from within, and thus relieve a good deal of the burden of external regulation, which is often quite cumbersome, though necessary.  


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Cap and Tax (4.00 / 2)
I agree with everything here, and I also favor the carbon tax. However, isn't it true that from a purely political strategy perspective, it might be easier to push Cap and Trade because the layman perceives it as more abstract and removed from their lives? In fact, I would say this is why Republicans immediately rebranded it as "Cap and Tax," in order to try to scare people with the word "tax." I suspect many Dems are supporting Cap and Trade in order to avoid the word "tax." In terms of the messaging portion of the framing task, I have difficulty believing that we can frame a carbon tax in a way that will make people receptive. (I do agree with you on the benefit of the effect of framing on our own thinking.)

In any case, I'm not terribly hopeful that we can make significant progress with the Congress we have.

On another note, you should mention that Republican ideas belong on the imaginary axis in the complex plane. :)


You Don't Win By Running Away From The Biggest Battles (4.00 / 5)
The most straightforward approach is to rebate 100% of the tax to consumers on a monthly basis.  What a perfect way to begin undoing 40 years of conservatives demonizing the word "tax."

Picking your battles is one thing.  But if you're acting out of fear, you're not picking.  You're letting yourself be picked.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Don't rebates defeat the purpose? (0.00 / 0)
That just creates a circular system where the effective cost of consuming the polluting item doesn't change. (E.g: A tank of gas now costs $40 out of pocket to the consumer. A hypothetical 25% carbon tax makes the cost $50, but the tax is returned to the consumer, effectively making the new consumer cost the same $40 out of pocket + $10 tax rebate.) Of course, no rebate system will allocate the rebates to perfectly correspond with taxes paid and there may be politically intended progressive/regressive distributions internalized in the system, but generally speaking on a macro level it appears a rebate system defeats the entire purpose.

RT @Atrios: ...people (who) genuinely can't discern between facts and their opinions really annoy

[ Parent ]
Not Exactly (4.00 / 3)
The rebates go to all.  Those who are consuming non-carbon based energy get the rebates and don't pay the taxes at the pump.  Hence the incentives are to move away from carbon.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Perhaps (0.00 / 0)
However, rebates would have a real world mitigation against achieving the policy objective and will make finding the optimal taxation level (already an Achilles heel of the carbon tax scheme*) even more difficult. You could funnel the rebates exclusively as subsidies for carbon-less investments/activity, however many view the rebates as a means of reducing the regressive incidence of the tax itself. Low income people are less likely to be in a position to take advantage of a carbon-less subsidy scheme.

* With cap-and trade, the cap is set -- the point on the plane is defined and achieved. In a carbon tax scheme, ensuring a precise outcome -- the same point on the plane -- is virtually impossible.

RT @Atrios: ...people (who) genuinely can't discern between facts and their opinions really annoy


[ Parent ]
You're Overlooking Something (0.00 / 0)
There are already substantial subsidies for dirty energy.  Merely removing them and shifting them to clean energy would help to accelerate the shift in price signal.


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Well, yes... (0.00 / 0)
...I'm sure there are. But efficacy and efficiency of a carbon tax scheme is what we're discussing here.

RT @Atrios: ...people (who) genuinely can't discern between facts and their opinions really annoy

[ Parent ]
What You're Discussing (0.00 / 0)
Everyone's free to raise whatever discussion points they want to.  But the diary's much more broadly focused than that, and I reserve the right to broaden any subdiscussion.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Again, fair enough (0.00 / 0)
...And I'm sorry if my comment sounded pissy -- it was a 'quick hit' reply as I was logging out to real life.

My point was simply that looking at or changing the other subsidies, sweetheart loopholes etc. for dirty energy, while surely worthwhile doing on their own merit or in a broader energy reform context, doesn't really alter or affect the point I was making about carbon taxes.  

RT @Atrios: ...people (who) genuinely can't discern between facts and their opinions really annoy


[ Parent ]
Sorry (0.00 / 0)
I didn't mean to be snippy, either.

By this point I was totally lost about the point(s) you were trying to make and thus all the more focused on getting back to the basics of my diary.

In the abstract, I would entirely agree with you that taxes should be used to subsidize new, clean technologies.  But the whole point of the diary is that we can't approach the problem in the abstract.  Hence my response.


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I agree, you cant dodge the debate (4.00 / 5)
Have we not seen this movie before?

Third Way Democrats propose a complicated, technocratic approach that is ideal in the abstract.  Republicans take advantage of the public's ignorance of the details to mischaracterize the proposal.  And then liberals, desperate to salvage a win, capitulate on all the key points so that the remaining, technocratic approach is fundamentally handicapped, but in such a way that corporate interests are maintained.  No thanks.

Instead, liberals should take a page out of the GOP/Luntz book and hammer the key principle that is the foundation of their approach every single time they talk about environmental issues.

Honestly, "The polluter should pay" should be repeated ad nauseum until every American can rattle it off in their sleep.  


[ Parent ]
Precisely! (4.00 / 1)
The endless repitition of a fundamental truth may be tedious beyond belief.  But it beats the hell out of the endless repitition of fundamental lies.

(And an excellent thumb-nail summary of the usual political dynamics, too, btw!)

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Imaginary Numbers (0.00 / 0)
are not, however, all irrational.

So the analogy, however tempting, ultimately fails.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
framing (0.00 / 0)
while i agree with your basic premise and the need to really understand how framing an issue is key.
i disagree in this instance on how you have framed the "tax carbon" side of the argument.
in using  "polluter pays" argument to argue for a carbon tax you have already written off half of the public by makeing the argument that its the big bad businesses that need to pay the tax.
an argument that "we all pay" brings back most of the the pro-business red-staters that the previous argument would have lost.
i am for a carbon tax and against any cap and trade system,
but how you make your argument (frame the discussion) will determine its eventual outcome. So many here on the left really do not see how this can truly makes a difference.
it was the same in the health care debate. almost everyone on the left, while good intentioned made their arguments to overhaul the health care  because: it would help so many, its a human right, etc and they completely left out the one of strongest arguments that it was good for Everyone(insured and uninsured alike) and good for the fiscal health of the nation.  i believe that we can still have a public option if the issue is framed correctly so that we could get some support for the republican side of the isle.

yes framing is of THE UTMOST IMPORTANCE and if properly thought out will help achieve much better outcomes.

thanx for bringing up this important subject

regards
tojo


Well, This Is Quite A Can Of Worms (4.00 / 1)
The first thing I'd say is to reiterate my central point: framing is a matter of thinking first, and communicating only secondarily.  What I'm trying to do here is to talk about how problems and solutions ought to be properly understood, first and foremost.  One might want to communicate somewhat differently, by altering the stress in various ways, and so long as this doesn't involve outright contradiction, I think it can be quite defensible.  But one needs to begin by clarifying the conceptual side first, and then worrrying about the communication.

Now, what does that mean getting down to brass tacks? Well, "polluter pays" is a conceptual principle, and it connects with the larger framework of externalized costs, which in turn is part of an even larger evolving framework, which I've written about before, most recently back on April 18, in Beyond oil & empire: Paying the price of priceless nature.

When you say:

in using  "polluter pays" argument to argue for a carbon tax you have already written off half of the public by makeing the argument that its the big bad businesses that need to pay the tax.

This is an argument about communication.  Whether I would agree with you or not, it is secondary to the issue of understanding the problem itself, as opposed to the politics involved in trying to solve it.  (I could get down into the weeds and argue "it's not all business, or even all big business", but I want to stay focused on my larger point as much as possible.)

I would take a similar approach to your discussion of the health care debate--although another factor was far more important, IMHO:  progressives didn't have any say at all in how it was framed, that was totally taken over by Obama & Co, via the total shut-out of single-payer advocates and the almost total shutdown of discussing the public option--orginally conceived as a brilliant transition mechanism to get us to single payer over a period of years.

In short, I want to stress the need to understand framing first in terms of how we conceptualize the problems we face.  Communicating is a semi-separate realm that's also very important.  But if we beging by thinking in terms of communicating, we are working back-to-front, and will never be clear about anything, except by accident.

It's certainly true that we should not needlessly alienate anyone.  But it's equally true that we cannot begin by worrying about who we might offend.  First figure out the problem itself.  Then look at the obstacles that need to be overcome.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
agreed! (4.00 / 1)
but again i would argue that after the issue is conceptually framed one should go back and refine  the wording of the working thesis not only to make the communication clearer but also and more importantly to help clarify ones own thoughts

thanx again
tojo  


[ Parent ]
Itterative Processes Are Your Friend (0.00 / 0)
It cannot be denied!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
re: debate (0.00 / 0)
it was the same in the health care debate. almost everyone on the left, while good intentioned made their arguments to overhaul the health care  because: it would help so many, its a human right, etc and they completely left out the one of strongest arguments that it was good for Everyone(insured and uninsured alike) and good for the fiscal health of the nation.  i believe that we can still have a public option if the issue is framed correctly so that we could get some support for the republican side of the isle.

some in the left yes, but didn't the dc dems do what you say they didn't? not that it did them any good


[ Parent ]
I find this argument very compelling (4.00 / 1)
As someone who has defended cap-and-trade as being a more economically efficient approach, you have convinced me that it will never be implemented in a fashion that, in reality, would be more effective.  I still believe that, in theory, a cap-and-trade scheme provides certain economic efficiencies.  But I realize that by striving for those efficiencies, we risk the creation of much greater systemic weaknesses.

Very Well Put (4.00 / 1)
In a perfect world, cap-and-trade would work.

That's the point of stressing that the two approaches are virtually interchangeable at their core--like the two coordinate systems.

But, of course, in a perfect world, cap-and-trade wouldn't be needed in the first place!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Too bad no one is listening (4.00 / 1)
This analysis is something I've been waiting a long time to hear. Nicely done, as usual, Paul. The problem, of course, is that no one wants to admit that there even are such things as externalized costs, let alone that we should seriously consider paying for them.

When casting around for the reasons why this is so, The first reason I encounter is, naturally, the classic American one: Who are you (you pointy-headed government asshole) to take away from me the right to do what I've always done, and made a profit doing? What I find more troublesome, though, are the reasonable, moderate people who argue against throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Briefly, their argument goes like this: Our entire society is based on (is addicted to) a style of living which requires large-scale power generation. If, in our zeal to undo what 100 years of misguided thinking about the natural environment have created, we make that power generation too expensive, we're more likely to get riots than emissions reductions. Although we definitely must go in this direction, they argue, we must go slowly, lest we destroy all the benefits which industrialization has bestowed on us. If I argue in turn that we don't have time to cajole people to trade in their SUVs for a Prius carpool cooperative, they argue that we'll just have to make time.

That's also why, I think, that some people on the left now support nuclear power generation. They honestly believe that it pushes a clear and present danger into the future, buys us some more time, etc., etc. If you ask at what cost? they just shrug. The costs are manageable, they say. They have to be manageable.

I guess what I'm saying is that even once you've discounted the bullies, propagandists, and right-wing apologists for corporate evil, you still have to persuade the dispensers of liberal pixie dust that even though it took us a hundred and fifty years to build what we've got, which does have real benefits for at least some people, including us, the matter is now urgent, and one way or another, we'll just have to endure the social and economic disruptions inherent in changing it -- if we want to survive, that is.


Wait For My Next Diary (0.00 / 0)
I'm starting to make some real headway, I think, in integrating my critiques of the right and the Versailles center. So I defer a longer response until you've seen what sort of cards I've got in my next hand.

For now, I'll just say that I agree 100% with your point about the need to deal with those political/intellectual parasites.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Mathematical pedantry ahead: (4.00 / 2)
The polar coordinates and the Cartesian coordinates aren't completely equivalent:  At the origin, the polar coordinate system is degenerate--the radius function is zero, but EVERY angle maps to the same point--the origin.  This makes the plane appear to be one dimensional at the origin, even though it is clearly not.  So, we strictly consider polar coordinates to be proper labels of the plane minus the origin, rather than the whole plane.  

Impressive! (0.00 / 0)
Doggone it, you're right.

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.

[ Parent ]
functionally, it's not that important for the plane (4.00 / 1)
the label r=0 is pretty unambiguous.  But for more complicated geometries, you get similar degeneracies that ARE important.  Particularly, you get something very similar at a black hole's event horizon--where one coordinate system looks like it's becoming one dimensional and singular, but you can find another coordinate system that is perfectly happy at that point.  

In general, one has to be very careful about whether coordinates are describing a whole space or merely a fraction of it.  


[ Parent ]
Black hole theory (0.00 / 0)
What's at the center? Well, we'd be a lot more comfortable, wouldn't we, if we just didn't discuss that? ;-)

[ Parent ]
Pedantry, Indeed! (4.00 / 1)
But, then, who am I to complain about that?


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Analogy to health care reform (4.00 / 2)
[Full disclosure: I, personally, was never as concerned with advocating for a "right" to health care as I was with simply lowering costs in the best manner possible.  That being said...]

If you were a liberal during the HCR debate who firmly believed that health care is a "right" then it was a fundamental mistake to not advocate strongly for single-payer, or possibly Medicare buy-in, rather than a public option offered through an exchange.

Leaving aside the politics of "socialism" and the opposition of the corporate interests for a moment, single-payer (or Medicare buy-in) are derived from the principle that health care is a right.  Whereas the existing, largely employment-based insurance model, even with government subsidies or even with a public option, is not derived from that principle.

So, while it is possible to attack health care benefits that are a right under a single-payer scheme (again, or Medicare buy-in), it is harder to make such attacks seem natural.

For example, in the future when Blue Dogs or Republicans oppose increasing insurance subsidies or support an increase in the "cadillac tax" or try to water down exchange regulations, those attacks will appear to be the natural result of a "free market" philosophy.  As we saw with Bush's attempts to privatize social security, it is much harder to make attacks on a sui generis system that Americans are entitled to as a "right."


The Larger Framework Here (4.00 / 1)
Is that of Gosta Esping-Andersen's The Three Worlds of Welfare Capitalism, which I've discussed in "The Three Worlds of Welfare Capitalism--A Roadmap For Current Debates", "Three (Two? Four? Five?) Worlds Of Welfare Capitalism (US Public Spending In Context-Interlude)" and "What's wrong with the third 'Third Way'" along with more limited mentions or discussions in a number of other diaries.

One could summarize the basic difference between the social-democratic "world" and the [neo]-liberal "world" as the difference between the market serving society as a whole (social-democratic) vs. the society as a whole serving the market ([neo]-liberal).  The third "world" is "conservative"--ordered to stabilize the social order, protect the status quo & enhance the status of elite actors and institutions.   The rights perspective is a natural expression of the social democratic model.

I've argued that America today is seeing the development of its own peculiar hybrid, a [neo]-liberal model that's being repurposed along its own unique form of "conservative" logic, that's not at all tied to maintaining the overall health of the state, which was historically crucial for the continental European welfare states, but is entirely dispensible for American conservatives, who don't give a shit what happens to folks they don't like.



"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Agree in general (0.00 / 0)
Disagree on details.

(Unfortunately, I'm running out the door as I write this, no time.....)

The central point of Cap and Trade is the cap.  The environment can't take more than 350, so you set the solid cap at that level.  Nothing higher is acceptable.  I think this is a stronger frame and more accurate.  


Equivalency (4.00 / 1)
You can get the same result with a carbon tax, however.  Maybe not in one blow, but via a series of adjustments.  And you can draft a law that makes that adjustment process automatic.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Wait, maybe there's something here (0.00 / 0)
I like your diary Paul, I agree that a carbon tax is a better approach than cap and trade, and I agree that there are ways to make them equivalent. However, I think Mark Matson provides an important perspective: If the point is a tax, then the tax might be set at any level and those who don't like taxes would argue for it to be lower. If the point is a cap, then only taxes that are high enough to ensure no more than that a certain amount of carbon dioxide is released is acceptable.

Accepting Matson's criticism might lead us to think a bit more about this. Instead of calling it a "carbon tax" maybe it should be called a "carbon cap tax" or "cap carbon tax" or somesuch that incorporates both concepts. This might be stronger than "carbon tax" alone, both from a tactical communication perspective and from a conceptual perspective.


[ Parent ]
But My Point ISN'T About What To Call It (4.00 / 1)
It's about the cognitive dimensions, not the communicative ones.

Not that the later are unimportant.  But they come afterward.


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I think the difference expressed here between you and Mark is a difference in the identification of the core problem. (4.00 / 4)
I think Mark is identifying the fundamental problem as global warming, understood as a kind of black swan ultimate-threat-to-civilization that happens to have emerged from an orderly and, at its most basic level, unproblematic course of technological progress.  Global Warming is the problem that needs to be fixed, and a cap is the most foundationally accurate way to do it.

Meanwhile, I think you see global warming as just one member of a family tree of problems that all stem from some more foundational problem; something like a social order that fails to discipline the exercise of power, or a social mindset predicated on domination and warfare, or a social ethics that fails to incorporate empathy, or some bigger deeper problem of some kind.  And so, making "polluter pays" the fundamental principle of the response to global warming is preferable, because "polluter pays" is an instance of an establishment of just relations, which is the larger project that you are really after.

The difference, then, is over whether our society is at its most basic levels functional, but with a lot of problems that require technocratic intervention (ideologically versatile technocratic intervention, even!  Hello Barack!), or whether our society is at its most basic levels deranged, with a massive cognitive reorientation required so that all these problems, which are really symptoms, can stop emerging in the first place.  I'd like to go on and label the first attitude "progressive", and the second "leftist," but I know that I don't understand those two words well enough, so I'm prepared for a thorough smackdown on that point.  (Particularly regarding what I identified as "leftist."  I think I got "progressive" right.)

Anyway, from the first perspective, focusing on 350 and a cap is correct.  From the second, focusing on deeper sorts of "first principles" is correct.  Right?


[ Parent ]
You Make A Good Case (4.00 / 1)
But I can't really speak for Mark.  My sense is that over time I've come to see more overlap between us.  

Regardless of whether you're right about the two of us, however, this does make sense as a general description of alternative rationales.  And my earlier writings about other ecosystem limits, and the destruction of ecosystem services certainly does comport with a view that global warming is just one symptom--albeit a very significant and important one--of a deeper systemic dysfunction.

I have nothing in principle against technological fixes, per se.  But I see the impulse to rely on them first and foremost as symptomatic of the pervasive attitude of denial and disengagement.  It's somewhat ironic, in that some folks who are involved in developing such fixes are doing so because they personally are quite the opposite.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
You are correct -- almost (0.00 / 0)
Remember that global warming is mostly caused by carbon dioxide, what all animal life breaths out, what makes the trees grow and is fundamental to the circle of life on this planet.  In and of itself, carbon dioxide is not a something we don't want.  This isn't like lead, farm waste, carbon monoxide, or some other byproduct you don't want near your kids.

Unfortunately, it turns out that too much of a good thing is very bad for the planet.  In this case, I think a cap is a much more natural approach, one that directly goes to the heart of the problem.  It is also easier to reach international agreements with caps than it is with a tax, where each country guarantees a certain maximum output.

But I agree with Paul that taxing externalized costs is hugely important as a "frame" all people need to internalize.  Perhaps global warming is a useful problem to use as a learning moment.  Since global warming really is different, however, it doesn't make the best example.  This oil spill would make a much better example, for instance.

Now, I'm not against a carbon tax.  Several months back I preferred it to cap and trade, but I changed my mind.  Both can work, but cap and trade is a more natural fit to the actual problem.

You can get the same result with a carbon tax, however.  Maybe not in one blow, but via a series of adjustments.  And you can draft a law that makes that adjustment process automatic.

You can, but the hoops you suggest jumping through show it isn't the best coordinate system for deriving the solution.


[ Parent ]
Not Exactly (0.00 / 0)
You're arguing like a technocrat, Mark.  And while I have no problem with technocratic solutions in themselves when they can actually work, I have a problem with technocracy as a whole precisely because of its record of systemic failure.

If the Democrat's proposal on the table were designed to get us to 350 ppm, then I would have to agree with you.  But given how ridiculously far it is from doing that, not so much.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
oh please (0.00 / 0)
You know very well that any real carbon tax would be full of very natural seeming tax breaks and other goodies that would utterly fly in the face of your framing point.  That's actually ok, since your real goal is much more long term than that.  I get that.  But to argue on those details instead of the more general point is a bit silly on your part.  

Yes, your theoretical, in your head carbon tax makes your point beautifully, while my actually proposed cap-and-trade bill does not.  But put the cap-and-trade in my head up against a real carbon tax and you would quickly find the tables reversed.  I suspect you know that, which makes your response a bit ... hastily written?


[ Parent ]
Oh, Mark! (0.00 / 0)
I wish you could have jumped into this discussion early on, when I was fresh-faced and ready to rumble.  Now I'm sure we'll both admit that neither of us can do full justice to our respective arguments, so miniatures will have to do.  Like this:

You know very well that any real carbon tax would be full of very natural seeming tax breaks and other goodies that would utterly fly in the face of your framing point.

This is actually a feature, not a bug.  Taking down the whole "natural seeming tax break" frame is part of the political purpose that I have in mind.  It's just about the best possible battlefield for fighting this one that I could possibly think of.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Yeah, life too busy this month (0.00 / 0)
Three birthdays, daughter had two play performances, a formal and we had to go down to the center of the state for a poetry contest awards ceremony.  Plus work...  Not much time for anything, lately; just drive bys.

But yeah, I get the long term stuff you are talking about.  I find it ironic that global warming itself doesn't fit as well into the big picture issue you want it too, but will admit it is close enough to perhaps justify.


[ Parent ]
Cap is Essential (0.00 / 0)
This isn't to weigh in on Cap and Trade v. Carbon Tax.  I happen to agree that a carbon tax (or whatever you want to call anything that adheres to "polluter pays" principles- critical to the environmental justice ramifications of this whole debate) plus strong regulation by the EPA (that treats power plants, incinerators, and other air/water/soil polluters as the public health criminals they are) is preferable.  But while "polluter pays" is an essential feature that needs to be fixed into the debate, so too is a cap, or the recognition of a "point of no return".

The 350-positive feedback dynamics that are essential towards pragmatically dealing with the reality of global warming are and always have been completely absent from our country's consideration of energy policy.  As I understand the science, you don't really get much in the way of points for making GHG cuts if you still pass the thresholds that trip the major positive feedback loops (methane leaks, drying out of the Amazon, huge-scale ocean acidification, albedo effects and polar/glacial melt).  I suppose maybe you do in that you somewhat slow the rate of climate destabilization, but you're basically loosing the monster at that point, it's just a matter of how fast it gears up.

This "point of no return" principle is also essential to thinking about global warming and needs to be communicated after being internalized.  It is not just essential, it is what to me makes climate change a fundamentally different issue to... any other.  Health care, while of immediate importance, has never existentially terrified me the way climate change does (though I'm blessed with relatively good health and resources, so I'll admit that as a class bias), because there is a point at which, with climate change, you are fundamentally unable to grapple with the catastrophe you've unleashed, on the scale demanded anyway.  That scares the living bejeezus out of me.

This would point to cap and trade- if Obama or anyone else for that matter were pushing for an adequate, enforceable cap!  But they're not, and so have clearly failed to recognize that climate change is not something you can score points for going half-way on.  Not understanding the point of the cap, their cap and trade is pretty much illegitimate.  This is a gross simplification, but basically if you get it wrong you get it almost all wrong.

So while "polluter pays" is definitely essential to us figuring out what society and world we want to be, so is "point of no return" essential to being truly pragmatic about climate change.

Figuring out how to be a progressive college graduate transplant to Ohio:  http://citizenobie.wordpress.com/


[ Parent ]
No Argument, Really (0.00 / 0)
EPA regulation is really the strongest card we hold in part because its conceived in terms of absolute limits, which is definitely 100% necessary.  The idea of trading it away is ludicrous.

And the idea of the tax needs to be that it's adjustable to make sure we hit the total emissions targets.  No argument there at all from me.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Coordinate frames are not the whole analogy. (0.00 / 0)
If one has a complicated set of calculations to do, then one can usually transform from one frame to the other (rectangular to polar and back) at different stages of the problem, arriving at an algorithm that is efficient.

I do not see any equivalent way to alternate CaT and CBT.  It is much tougher to deal with politics and economics than mathematical simulations.


No Analogy Is Ever Perfect (0.00 / 0)
But this one is better than you give it credit for if you just think of it in terms of best fitting a single operation.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
But what is needed? (0.00 / 0)
Yes, for a single operation it is fine.  But a stable process composed of many operations across changing conditions is necessary in order to get the world off carbon.

[ Parent ]
So? (0.00 / 0)
What's your point?

My point is that (A) we're involved in a political battle, (B) how we conceive of the problem determines a great deal of the outcome, and (C) failure to recognize (a) means that we'll badly misconceive the problem, and thus fail to solve it.

How is what you're saying relevant to that argument?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
So, failing to solve it is all too likely. (0.00 / 0)
I take A, B, and C as given.  The big consumers will not seek a political solution that has any chance of working until the world is in such bad shape that it will be too late.  The problem is a process that will change in time, and its political solution will become extraordinarily complicated, vastly exceeding the willingness of nations to cooperate.

I think the earth is doomed from mankind's point of view without a purely technological solution.  That is, someone figures out how to leak more energy out through the atmosphere.


[ Parent ]
I'm Still Hopeful (0.00 / 0)
that we can avoid the Bell Riots.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]




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