What if the tea party was black???

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sun Jul 18, 2010 at 20:00


Metamars, this one's for you:

Paul Rosenberg :: What if the tea party was black???

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What if the tea party was black??? | 39 comments
Crux of the matter isn't it. (4.00 / 1)
We try to keep maintaining that race doesn't matter. Just like we did in 1776. When oh when . . .
I don't know if it's the crux of the matter (0.00 / 0)
but, yeah, it certainly needed to be said, and please note that it could only be said this effectively by an African-American.  

Reason I question it's cruxishness is because I see too many poorly-informed progressives rushing to embrace the racism angle almost as a crutch, an excuse for not winning.  Hell, we criticize Obama constantly for his neoliberalism.  We even say this is WHY he has trouble connecting to the working class which certainly includes the white working class.  This must be factored into our analysis along with racism.  Racism there is, to be sure, but the value of well-to-do white liberals always lecturing people about it is certainly overstated in some quarters.

Let me say again, though, this clip is excellent.

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.

[ Parent ]
Fair enough (0.00 / 0)
What Paul is suggesting in posting this, I feel, is that race matters in terms of our framing of arguments. Maybe I overstated my point but we just can't overlook this dynamic of American culture even while we are acknowledging that some are embracing the "racism angle as a crutch" in the Obama enthusiast crowd.
[ Parent ]
Exactly my pont (4.00 / 1)
we just can't overlook this dynamic of American culture even while we are acknowledging that some are embracing the "racism angle as a crutch" in the Obama enthusiast crowd.

Both things are true.

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.

[ Parent ]
Just like 1776 (4.00 / 3)
Here's a good Tim Wise link unpacking the take our country back rallying cry. Hard to get a louder dog whistle than that:
How fascinating. That it is factually impossible to separate out the "racism part" from the rest of it is something many white folks seem not to understand. They seem to think there was once a time of innocence when oppression wasn't happening, or that we can easily extract from our accounting of those crimes the great and noble things about our forefathers and view them in some patriotic vacuum.  

And here's another good one he did: Imagine If the Tea Party Was Black:

Protest is only seen as fundamentally American when those who have long had the luxury of seeing themselves as prototypically American engage in it. When the dangerous and dark "other" does so, however, it isn't viewed as normal or natural, let alone patriotic.

[ Parent ]
Ah-h-h-h (0.00 / 0)
I've never been good at parsing lyrics out of pop music. Why don't you post the lyrics?

Regarding the bit about carrying guns:
Personally, I wish that blacks would congregate, with guns, in states that have open carry laws, in support of the 2nd amendment. If they get pushback, though, I doubt it will be from teabaggers. (And certainly, any teabaggers who would protest such a demonstration would be hypocrites.) Instead, I think the teabaggers would cheer. Say, Paul, here's an idea - why don't you ask them? Oh, right - because no matter what they say, you will hear code words and dog whistles that mean just whatever fits your comfortable prejudice. Well, if you want flex you mighty code word and dog whistle decoding skill muscles, why not do so, anyway?

Regarding the Black Panthers:
I really don't know a lot about them. I do believe, though, from stuff I've seen, that many were assassinated by our lovely national security state. A new Black Panther party, which preached gun ownership, might well have much to fear from black op government types (no pun intended). Again, though, why would anybody blame teabaggers?

Assassinating black activists would not be beyond the putrid moral depradations of our national security state types. Not if the findings of the civil* case against Jowers in the assassination of MLK are to be believed. Let's say that, for the sake of argument, the findings of this trial, which implicated the FBI and Army Intelligence, are correct. (It's my understanding that the King family is quite accepting of the verdict.) Would this also be the teabagger's fault, or the fault of some progenitor organizations? Do tell.

* The standards of evidence are lower in a civil case than a criminal case.

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Lyrics (4.00 / 3)
    What if the tea party was black
   Holding guns like the Black Panther Party was back
   If Al was Rush Limbaugh and Jesse was Sean Hannity
   And Tavis was Glenn Beck would they harm they families
   If Sarah Palin was suddenly Sistah Soaljah
   Would they leave it with the votes or go and get the soldiers
   Yall know if the tea party was black
   The government would have been had the army attack

   What if Michael Baisden was on ya FM dial
   For 3 hours every day calling the president foul
   Would they say free speech or find evidence how
   To charge him with treason like see he's unamerican now
   What if Minister Farrakhan prayed for the death
   Of the commander in chief that he be laid to rest
   Would they treat it as the gravest threat or never make an arrest
   Even today he's still hated for less
   What if President Obama would have lost the election
   Quit his job so he could go talk to the left and
   Bash the government for being off of direction
   Fraught with deception
   And told black people they want all of our weapons
   And we want our own country and called for secession
   Would he be arrested and tossed in corrections
   For trying to foster aggression
   Against the people's lawful selection
   Our questions

   What if the tea party was black
   Holding guns like the Black Panther Party was back
   If Al was Rush Limbaugh and Jesse was Sean Hannity
   And Tavis was Glenn Beck would they harm they families
   If Sarah Palin was suddenly Sistah Soaljah
   Would they leave it with the votes or go and get the soldiers
   Yall know if the tea party was black
   The government would have been had the army attack

   What If black people went on Facebook and made a page
   That for the death if the president elect we prayed
   Would the creators be tazed and thrown in a cage
   We know the page wouldn't have been displayed all these days
   What if Jeremiah Wright said that everybody white
   Wasn't a real America would you feel scared of him
   If he had a militia with pictures that depict the president as Hitler
   They would kill and bury that
   Wait
   What if Cynthia McKinney lamented the winning of the new president
   And hinted he wasn't really a true resident
   With no proof or evidence
   Would the media treat it like a huge press event
   They would have attacked whatever group she represents
   They would have called her a kook on precedent
   And any network that gave her due preference
   Would be the laughing stock of the news so our question is

   What if the tea party was black
   Holding guns like the Black Panther Party was back
   If Al was Rush Limbaugh and Jesse was Sean Hannity
   And Tavis was Glenn Beck would they harm they families
   If Sarah Palin was suddenly Sistah Soaljah
   Would they leave it with the votes or go and get the soldiers
   Yall know if the tea party was black
   The government would have been had the army attack

[ Parent ]
He mashes together lots of different "theys" (0.00 / 0)
Which, I'll venture, is why Paul seems to like this.

They - the media
They - hypothetical black mirror images of Fox talking head types
They - the government
They - hypothetical black mirror image of the Tea Party

Since I object to smearing the entire Tea Party movement with the reprehensible actions of a few (I don't take Paul's phrenological analyses which lead to conclusion that the Tea Party is racist, as a whole, seriously), I'm not going to even try to disentangle all these "they's", and then try to figure out the relationship of each they to the Tea Party's alleged, systemic racism. Since a couple of the "they's" are purely hypothetical, it's even harder to make guesstimates of the various scenarios sketched out.

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[ Parent ]
Personally (4.00 / 6)
I don't think this video has anything to do with the racism of the tea parties.  Even if the tea baggers themselves where not racist in the slightest, this video would still be powerful and make a point.

No way in Hell could blacks get away with stuff the tea baggers do.

[ Parent ]
You are the type of person (4.00 / 3)
for whom no evidence of racism would ever be good enough.

Ta-Nehisi Coates has spent the past few days talking about racism in the Tea Party and those, like Metamars, who enable it, if anyone's interested.

[ Parent ]
Good enough for WHAT? (0.00 / 0)
I take it as a given that there's racists in the Tea Party, just like I take it as a given that there's racists in the Democratic Party. I also take it as a given that there's racists in the US Federal Government. Does that mean I have to declare that the US Federal Government is racist, as a whole, and bring that up each and every time I talked about the US Federal Government? Does it mean that I could never criticize the ubiquitous dysfunction of the US Federal Government, without somehow mentioning that I'm criticizing a racist Federal Government? If I want to talk about something that the Federal Government does mostly right, like Medicare, should I throw in a mention that the Federal Government is, ya know, racist?

The NAACP, to their credit, was careful enough to criticize racist elements within the Tea Party:

Today, NAACP delegates passed a resolution to condemn extremist elements within the Tea Party, calling on Tea Party leaders to repudiate those in their ranks who use racist language in their signs and speeches.

So do tell us, Filler, if in your inestimable opinion, they should reword their resolution and instead condemn the "racist Tea Party", or something along those lines.

Inquiring minds want to know.

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[ Parent ]
I was also talking about elements within the Tea Party (0.00 / 0)
Notice how I said "racism in the Tea Party" and not "the wholly racist Tea Party" or whatever. This is probably my main beef with you--the video doesn't argue that the Tea Party is racist, I didn't imply the whole Tea Party was racist, and so far as I know nobody here has argued that the Tea Party is, on the whole, racist. But anytime "racism" and "Tea Party" appear in the same paragraph together, you automatically assume that what's being said is that every single teabagger ever is in the klan. You are hyper defensive about it, and you put words in your opponents' mouths.

The reason I and others are concerned about racism in the Tea Party is not because we think it is predominantly racist--it's because there is a significant, vocal, and influential faction of the Tea Party which is racist, which can't be said for the Democratic Party or the federal government.

[ Parent ]
well, you know wrong (0.00 / 0)
the video doesn't argue that the Tea Party is racist, I didn't imply the whole Tea Party was racist, and so far as I know nobody here has argued that the Tea Party is, on the whole, racist.

According to Rosenberg:

And it's not just this.  Your primary mode of discussing ideas seems to be the same:  attacking people for not discussing what you want to discuss.  This is how you raised the issue of non-racists being part of the Tea Party, for example.  But no one ever doubted that, so you had to pose in terms of a strawman attack, and then go further to claim that the entire movement wasn't racist--which was absurd.  (The strawman fallacy falsely imputing the fallacy of division to others.)
(emphasis mine)

Since any large group of people will have some racists in it, I took his "entire movement to be racist" comment as applying to the movement as a whole, and not necessarily each and every member. (Though he has made me wonder about this more extreme view.) It is Rosenberg who is falsely claiming that the Tea Party movement as a whole is racist. In fact, he thinks to claim otherwise is "absurd".

Good for you about talking about elements within the Tea Party. However, I suggest you speak with the carefulness of the NAACP, going forward. You wouldn't want to be misunderstood as a smear merchant, would you?

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[ Parent ]
Huh? (4.00 / 3)
That's an odd reading of Paul's quote, no? I think the gist was that no one suggested that every single Tea Party-er was racist, so to introduce that into the discussion is a deliberate attempt to detour/derail the discussion.

"This ain't for the underground. This here is for the sun." -Saul Williams
[ Parent ]
What is it about the phrase "and then go further" that you don't understand? (0.00 / 0)
Never mind that I also reject his characterization of me before the "then go further" part. After (and therefore distinct from) the "then go further" part of his sentence, he is claiming that it's absurd to say that the entire Tea Party movement (i.e., movement as a whole) isn't racist.

Not only is it not absurd, but to say otherwise is a smear. At the end of the day, the Tea Party smearers mostly have some distasteful signs, many of which aren't even racist, anyway. I mean, an Obama picture with a Hitler moustache is "racist", but one with Bush having a Hitler moustache wasn't? Who, but an idiot, or irrational hothead, could fail to see the hypocrisy in that?? And calling Obama a "socialist" is a sign of racism? A sign of ignorance, yes - he's much more a fascist, in Mussolini's sense of the word (i.e., corporatist). So if some Tea Party dude carried a more accurate sign accusing Obama of being a fascist, would he then be exempt from being called a racist by the smear merchants? Silly question - anybody who is paying attention can easily guess how that one will turn out. Like on wag's tea party sign says "It doesn't matter what I write on this sign, you're still going to call me a racist."

The incident of spitting on Congressmen and calling them the N-word is more serious, but given that lefties have been caught trying to infiltrate the Tea Parties to make them look bad, I'd feel more comfortable drawing conclusions if the person doing the spitting was arrested, and we got to find out about him (or her).

I didn't post the references for deep politics and especially COINTELPRO, for nothing. It doesn't take an Einstein to see that poisoning civic discourse serves the purpose of dividing the public very well. I haven't spent a lot of time at Tea Bag blogs, but it seems to me that many commentators are very tribalistic, take offense at being called racists (well, who wouldn't?), and blame "leftist" infiltrators for all their problems. See here, e.g.

I'm sure if you asked them, they'd agree that not all leftists are lowlifes who would deceptively try to smear them as racists, but I don't see any qualifications at this particular web page, do you?

At least from appearances, I see a perfect storm of the most outspoken of useful idiots of both the left and right, whose  verbal behavior reminds me of bands of naked apes, putting on aggression displays; I'm guessing they're helped along by a few manipulative Cointelpro types. Meanwhile, the plutocrats are still laughing all the way to the bank, the lefties have been diverted from doing organizing and recruiting of their own, and a fusion progressive/libertarian group hasn't even started....

Not good.

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[ Parent ]
Metamars, you're terrible! You are terrible! (0.00 / 0)
Maybe if you strawmaned a little harder you could convert us all to good old fashioned teabagging conservatism????????????
[ Parent ]
Huh? (0.00 / 0)
What strawman?

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[ Parent ]
... (0.00 / 0)
Again, though, why would anybody blame teabaggers? ... Would this also be the teabagger's fault, or the fault of some progenitor organizations? Do tell.

Nobody was blaming the Tea Party for these things.

[ Parent ]
Right, and I didn't think that you or even Paul would be so crazy as to do so (0.00 / 0)
Especially since the teabaggers didn't exist in the 60's.

What did exist back in the 60's, and is probably worse today because of the Homeland Security Act, is the national security state. Nowadays, the President can order a hit on an American citizen that he deems a terrorist, and doesn't have to even hide the fact! (Though probably will.)

So, I would say that members of a reborn Black Panther Party that preaches gun ownership as a means of defense against a tyrannical government has bona-fide reasons to be concerned about getting assassinated by "soldiers", but, once again, such a fear would rationally have nothing to do with the Tea Party.

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[ Parent ]
"COINTELPRO against blacks was murder" - Noam Chomsky (0.00 / 0)
Link

CHOMSKY: Well, COINTELPRO, yeah. COINTELPRO was differentiated. COINTELPRO directed against blacks was murder. Against whites it was disruption, defamation, circulating stories about sexual conduct, things like that. That was a big difference, and the difference had to do with who is privileged and who is not privileged. In our society, people with power and wealth are relatively free. Freedom is a commodity, like anything else in capitalist society. You have as much of it as you can buy. And if you're wealthy and the right color, you can buy a lot. The privileged people who actually run the country, they don't want the state to have power to go after people like them. So they'll actually protect the civil rights of people they hate if they come from the right class.


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[ Parent ]
Deep Politics references (0.00 / 0)
[ Parent ]
US Senate Candidate for 2012 (4.00 / 1)
US Senate candidate that missed getting the signatures for the Special Election/Primary in NY State
I am running again in 2012 except the gloves will really come off because I will be mobilizing more effectively
the 'disgruntled' Democrat voters utilizing my "Democratic Tea Party" movement. I think it will spark a real change in:
1) Campaign Finance
2) Changes to the Health Care system that were NOT enabled by either Party
3) Changes to the economy and energy policy that were also not enabled by either Party
4) Level the playing field against unions and corporations for small business and average citizens
5) Peel and Repeal unnecessary layers of government that created partisan jobs and increased the cost of government
www.norenforsenate.com
this email is the way to contact me please ([email protected])

www.thedemocraticteaparty.com and .org will be functional at some point along with [email protected] (functional now)

I will need volunteers asap and this could be a huge, legitimate national movement based on a REAL platform
Scott Noren DDS
Oral & Maxillofacial Surgeon

Good Luck! (0.00 / 0)
I like your platform (although I'm pro-union myself); the emphasis on campaign finance is great.

BTW: I had maxillo-mandibular advancement for severe apnea back in the fall, so your specialty caught my eye. Needless to say, I respect what you do.

[ Parent ]
Posing a question for the group (0.00 / 0)
I'm going to defend metamars ... a little

I think his statements frequently do tend, a little, to whitewash real racism in the Tea Party.  The Tea Party is not a coherent movement.  They recently kicked out some guy precisely for racism.   This is evidence both for and against metamars's opinion.  Clearly there's something going on there.  And the racism is not hard to see in the signs carried and actions carried out by many of them.

But the question remains, what value is there in pointing out racism in the Tea Party especially if that is your ONLY mode of dealing with the phenomenon?  

So does this question - what do we hope to gain by pointing the racism out?  If it's to solidify our understanding of the problem, it may have some value.  If it's to shame the racist Tea Partiers out of their behavior, it's not likely to work.  If it is as I have charged, often used as a crutch to excuse progressive failure, then it veers over into pernicious territory.

To move the discussion forward, I'd like us to discuss this:


Is "What if the Tea Party was Black" a more effective form of political communication than denunciations of racism by, say, a Janine Garofalo - and if so, why?  

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.

Ta-Nehisi Coates, because I love him (4.00 / 1)
It's been asked in comments, a few times, what good has come of the NAACP's resolution. I would not endeavor to speak for anyone but myself when I say that I owe the NAACP a debt of gratitude. I have, in my writing, a tendency to become theoretically cute, and overly enamored with my own fair-mindedness. Such vanity has lately been manifested in the form of phrases like "it's worth saying"  and "it strikes me that..." or "respectfully..."

When engaging your adversaries, that approach has its place. But it's worth saying that there are other approaches and other places. Among them--respectfully administering the occasional reminder as to the precise nature of the motherfuckers you are dealing with. [emphasis mine]


[ Parent ]
key word (0.00 / 0)
occasional

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.
[ Parent ]
Fair enough! (0.00 / 0)

[ Parent ]
if the tea party was black (4.00 / 1)
it wouldn't exist as it does today, the fbi would have infiltrated it and done their dirty tricks to topple the party from mainstream acceptance, but since the tea party is mostly old, white, and stupid america casts a blind eye to its racist hateful agenda, as the land of the free has done for decades in furthering its white is right history.
Impressed by… (0.00 / 0)
...the video's moxie and wordplay (I luvvv hip-hop), but I can't shake one little disconnect: Since Barack Obama is at the head of the federal government now, the bit about the "Army attack" always stops me. Now, I'm not saying that Obama would let things slide or go unchallenged because the participants are black, but I don't think any action he took would be a mere reflex, which is markedly dissimilar to what I think was possible the day before he was elected. When you think about it in that light, it's a bit easier to see why his favorability numbers among blacks will remain high, even as African-Americans are inordinately effected/crushed by this economy.    

"This ain't for the underground. This here is for the sun." -Saul Williams
Check The Lyrics (4.00 / 1)
Since Barack Obama is at the head of the federal government now, the bit about the "Army attack" always stops me.

Not exactly:

What if President Obama would have lost the election
Quit his job so he could go talk to the left and
Bash the government for being off of direction
Fraught with deception
And told black people they want all of our weapons
And we want our own country and called for secession
Would he be arrested and tossed in corrections
For trying to foster aggression
Against the people's lawful selection
Our questions


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3
[ Parent ]
Not sure that cancels out my point… (0.00 / 0)
Since that's just one hypothetical among many stated well after the intro/chorus, it doesn't necessarily change the thrust of the entire piece. By the time you get there the Army imagery is solidified, or at least it is with me.

"This ain't for the underground. This here is for the sun." -Saul Williams
[ Parent ]
Oh Jesus! (0.00 / 0)
The entire premise is racial reversal:

What if the tea party was black
Holding guns like the Black Panther Party was back
If Al was Rush Limbaugh and Jesse was Sean Hannity
And Tavis was Glenn Beck would they harm they families
If Sarah Palin was suddenly Sistah Soaljah

If you're not smart enough to figure that out immediately before the lines that confuse you:

Would they leave it with the votes or go and get the soldiers
Yall know if the tea party was black
The government would have been had the army attack

Then the lines I quoted make it TOTALLY clear.

What more do you want???

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Gots ta' chill? (0.00 / 0)
All I'm saying is that it's the one aspect of the piece that stopped me, not that the entire effort is worthless. It's clear that you don't like to be challenged, but come on, now...

"This ain't for the underground. This here is for the sun." -Saul Williams
[ Parent ]
Okay (0.00 / 0)
It's fine that you're talking about your reaction.  There's certainly no arguing with that.

But as a writer (and, yes, as a teenager, I wrote poetry and songs first --including satire, which was my into to political writing), I just had to point out that this isn't really a flaw.  

No lyric will ever strike everybody as perfect, but the writer--particularly the writer of lyrics or poetry--can't really be concerned with that, or they'll be like the millipede that was asked how they kept all their legs working together so seemlessly, and one it thought about, of course, it couldn't move at all.

So, maybe we were both over-sensitive.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
I'm absolutely certain… (0.00 / 0)
...this bit is inaccurate:

...but the writer--particularly the writer of lyrics or poetry--can't really be concerned with that, or they'll be like the millipede that was asked how they kept all their legs working together so seamlessly, and once it thought about, of course, it couldn't move at all.

That's why folks revise, edit, whatever their rough drafts. I'm OK agreeing to disagree, though.

"This ain't for the underground. This here is for the sun." -Saul Williams

[ Parent ]
Not Exactly (0.00 / 0)
Quality poetry and lyrics are controlled by internal logic.  Trying to please everyone is inimical to that.  Revisions are made to comport with that logic and with artistic intent, not to deal with possible misreadings, since such misreadings are inevitable, and trying to prevent them would lead the writer far astray from their purpose.

The situation is quite different when writing non-fiction--journalism, books, or whatever.  In that case, one does try to avoid foreseeable misreadings, because the writerly intent is substantially different, and the task of avoiding such misreadings is not so much in conflict with that intent, but rather mostly in harmony.

Still, there are very different ways that this manifests in writing a newspaper story, say, compared to an article for a medical journal.  If a writer for a medical journal tried to avoid any possible confusion for a lay reader, they'd get just as screwed up as that poor millipede.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
If the tea party was black... (4.00 / 2)
They would be ignored (at best) by the media, and therefore mostly unknown, and of little concern. Or they would be attacked by the media as unamerican, treasonus, rabblerousers, and labeled kooks...SO FAR outside the mainstreem that their issues were irrelevant.

A lot like all other progressive groups in our money dominated/greed is good media (and society).

Government by organized money is just as dangerous as government by organized mob..... FDR

tea party (0.00 / 0)
Im a white conservative and a proud member of the Tea Party i think the Tea Party is greatest movement ever.

But most black leaders call the Tea Party a white power racist movement because it's 95% white.

Black Tea Party members are called ball sucking token uncle toms that hate their own race and black community.

Chris Rock said all black conservatives do is kiss the white man's azz.
Chardham tour operators

tea party (0.00 / 0)
Im a white conservative and a proud member of the Tea Party i think the Tea Party is greatest movement ever.

But most black leaders call the Tea Party a white power racist movement because it's 95% white.

Black Tea Party members are called ball sucking token uncle toms that hate their own race and black community.

Chris Rock said all black conservatives do is kiss the white man's azz.
Chardham tour operators

What if the tea party was black??? | 39 comments




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