Barack Obama: The conservatives' liberal / The futility of neo-liberal identity politics

by: Paul Rosenberg

Mon Sep 20, 2010 at 13:30


In quick hits david mizner calls attention to Glenn Greenwald's column,
"Obama's view of liberal criticisms",  which began thus:

Last night, Barack Obama spoke at a $30,000 per plate DNC fundraising event at the "home of Richard and Ellen Richman, who live in the exclusive Conyers Farm development in Greenwich [Connecticut]'s famed 'back country' neighborhood," and said the following about liberal critics of his presidency:
    Democrats, just congenitally, tend to get -- to see the glass as half empty. (Laughter.) If we get an historic health care bill passed -- oh, well, the public option wasn't there. If you get the financial reform bill passed -- then, well, I don't know about this particular derivatives rule, I'm not sure that I'm satisfied with that. And gosh, we haven't yet brought about world peace and -- (laughter.) I thought that was going to happen quicker. (Laughter.) You know who you are. (Laughter.) We have had the most productive, progressive legislative session in at least a generation.

So, just as Robert Gibbs before him explained (albeit more harshly), if you're one of those people dissatisfied with large parts of the Obama presidency, that's only because you have something wrong with the way you think (you need drug testing/you "congenitally see the glass as half empty"), and because you are saddled with extremely unrealistic, child-like expectations (you're angry that the Pentagon hasn't closed yet/bitter that Obama "hasn't yet brought about world peace:  'I thought that was going to happen quicker' (Laughter.)").  In other words, you're just a petulant, unreasonable, unrealistic, fringe child who doesn't appreciate the greatness and generosity he's given you (h/t Jane Hamsher).  Contrary to what many of you thought, it's these flaws within yourself that cause you to be dissatisfied with the administration, not because of any of this:

which he followed with a litany of screen shots and links documenting many of Obama's most eggregious betrayals, after which he wrote:

What's most striking about Obama's comments is that there is no acceptance whatsoever of responsibility (I've failed in some critical areas; we could have/should have done better).  There's not even any base-motivating vow to fight to fix these particular failures (we'll keep fighting for a public option/to curb executive power abuses/to reduce lobbyist and corporate control of our political process).  Instead, he wants you to know that if you criticize him -- or even question what he's done ("well, I don't know about this particular derivatives rule, I'm not sure that I'm satisfied with that") -- it's your fault:  for being some sort of naive, fringe-leftist idiot who thought he would eliminate the Pentagon and bring about world peace in 18 months, and/or because you simply don't sufficiently appreciate everything he's done for you because you're congenitally dissatisfied.

Perhaps what struck me most about this morally despicable performance is how perfectly Obama embodied the conservative caricature of an out-of-touch liberal elitist at the same time that he was heaping scorn on liberals in a dramatically out-of-touch attack on those responsible for his political success.  He was, in short, the conservative's liberal:  he embodied everything that conservatives can think of to make liberalism distasteful, if not revolting, and nothing that liberals would recognize to make liberalism attractive.

Paul Rosenberg :: Barack Obama: The conservatives' liberal / The futility of neo-liberal identity politics

The Apotheosis of "Liberal Elitisim"

For some reason, this account of Obama's hollowed-out neo-liberalism made me think of the very different political ethos that I grew up in.  It's not at all well-remembered today, but the 1960s student movement was almost entirely made up of students whose parents were working-class, or just one step out of it as GI Bill college graduates themselves. (I was the later). And while most of us were there because our parents had sacrificed to make a better life for us, we were also there because we hungered for knowledge, for understanding, and for the chance to make a difference in the world.  We had, in a sense, been waiting all our lives for the adventure we were about to begin, and we had all had some kind of experience that had marked us--or at least served notice--that we had to have something larger in our lives.

For example, a really strange thing happened to me once while I was growing up.  I was an intensely curious kid, who did a lot of self-educating by reading books, as well as collecting and examining things, and pestering my college-educated parents (both born working class and the first in their families to go to college).  As a result, I tended to ask a lot of questions in school as well. One day, a kid whose identity I can't remember, except that he was a boy in my grade-school class, asked me, "Why do you ask so many questions?  What makes you think that you're so smart?"  I was dumbfounded.  It sounded to me like a non-sequiter.  If I wanted to show off being smart, I would answer questions, rather than asking them.  What I was was hungry for knowledge, which is pretty much a natural state of being for young humans. It's what we're wired for.

But it's not what our hyper-hierarchical post-nomadic forms of civilization were wired for.  Conformity. Obedience.  Following instructions. Not asking questions.  That's what they were wired for. Unlike your typical nomadic tribe, which needed all the savvy and intelligence it could muster, they didn't need a whole lot of people aking questions.  In fact, they didn't really need anyonedoing that.  At best, they needed a small elite corps of physical and cultural engineers to keep things running smoothly, and that's probably at least one of the few rational roots of widespread anti-intellectualism--a sort of displaced, or better, mis-articulated form of class resentment.  Indeed, if as German Social Democrat August Bebel said, "anti-semitism is the socialism of fools," it could just as well be said that "anti-intellectualism is the class war of fools."

Precisely because conservative elites had done such a good job of demonizing real class war, this foolish ersatz version had a virulent gut-level power to it, making it almost impossible to understand--particularly since understanding was the identified enemey.

A lot of things happened between my childhood experience in the 1950s, and when Barack Obama was in college in the 1980s.  But the most salient thing for my purposes here was that answers became far more important than questions.  You can see it in Obama's mania for testing kids as a way of supposedly "improving" education. You can see it in his reliance on experts who have "all the answers" even though they totally failed to ask the big questions that could have prevented the catastrophic failures of the Bush Administration.

And so it was that while Obama grew up consciously eschewing the substance of his own mother's liberalism, he came to perfectly embody the hollowed-out conservative caricature of cultural superiority, meritocratic achievement for no other purpose than personal success.  This is liberal elitism precisely as conservatives imagine it, devoid of any grounding in community, values or transcendent purposes.  It is the enactment of a neo-liberal ethos representing it's own special form of identity politics, framed around the identity of meritocratic achievement.  It is a vision that's necessarily blind to the fact that larger questions outside the scope of professional comtepetence even exist, much less that they could be of over-riding importance.  And it is equally blind to the fact that turning everyone into a meritocratic success story cannot possibly be a recipe for social and economic progress.  Not only do we need a much broader variety of tasks to be done, and not only do the vast majority of them not require professional training, if it were otherwise, then the laws of supply and demand would surely drive down the levels of professional pay, making the meritocratic utopia a self-defeating proposition.

This why the immediate catastrophe of Obama's neo-liberal political failure is not just an historical accident.  Rather, it is inherent in his very ideological outlook, difficult as that outlook may be for most of us to grasp. (I freely admit that I am only just now beginning to really make sense of it.)  We should not expect to be able to change Obama's outlook in any substantial manner.  He is as ideologically rigid and closed to outside ideas as any conservative ideologue--if not moreso, because he is protected by the belief in his own open-mindedness--an open-mindedness that is quickly revealed as a sham when you realize how little interest or patience he has for those questions that defy easy answers, questions that make people angry, questions that make people snap, "How come you think you're so smart?"

For that is part of what Obama was mocking in his Greenwich fundraising speech.  It's not that we pesky liberals want to much.  It's that we even think to ask about them.

    "There are those that look at things the way they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?" -- Robert F. Kennedy.

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So true. (4.00 / 2)
It is the enactment of a neo-liberal ethos representing it's own special form of identity politics, framed around the identity of meritocratic achievement.  It is a vision that's necessarily blind to the fact that larger questions outside the scope of professional comtepetence even exist, much less that they could be of over-riding importance.  And it is equally blind to the fact that turning everyone into a meritocratic success story cannot possibly be a recipe for social and economic progress.

You write some of the best and deepest analysis around the blogosphere.

We should not expect to be able to change Obama's outlook in any substantial manner.  

We have to look reality hard in the face.  Progressive ideas are systematially attacked everywhere.  Obama appears to be the limit of what is allowed, and it is Rockefeller Republcianism.

But, and it's a big but, knowing all of this, I think we need to ally with him.  I part with my friend David Mizner on this.  

We need to move the hegemonic views to teh middle from the far right before we can build a real left.

I may well be wrong. But that is the only path I see, and it may fail also.  


the well-trod path to nowhere. (4.00 / 4)
having brought us right to where we are. let's keep following it. maybe this circle will lead to a better spot this time.

[ Parent ]
Things really can be worse. (4.00 / 1)
Strengthn the progressive movement so we have a choice better than nowhere.

Sometimes it's easy to send the imaginary progressive armies up agaisnt the barracades to total victory, but it ain't real.

I see two real choices,  Dems or Greens.  


[ Parent ]
they ALWAYS can be worse (0.00 / 0)
I agree. I am not sure about the choices but the one I find the most convincing NOW is "not Dem".

[ Parent ]
Stop that "one size fits all" thinking, pls. Victor! (4.00 / 1)
"the Dems" consists of the effing blood dogs, the mainstream liberals, and the progressives. Do we want to condemn ALL of them? Certainly not. so, let's not sapread the wrong message! It's not THE Dems that are the problem, it's the effing sellouts, the blue dogs, the corporatists and DINOs.

[ Parent ]
yes, I agree with a lot here. (0.00 / 0)
But your comment is better directed at Tom Wells who put the issue as Dems or Greens, right?

[ Parent ]
Didn't I answer to him, too? (0.00 / 0)
Damn, I'm too confused recently...

[ Parent ]
in fairness to you maybe I should also add (4.00 / 2)
that while there are a few Dems I do support, I am tired of hearing about how singular the blue dogs are. Under Obama the direction and leadership of the party has been at or to the right of the DLC. So while I do differentiate between genuine progressives in Congress, my evaluation puts very few there.

[ Parent ]
Sorry, It's the Dems (4.00 / 4)
It is.  The DINOS are the excuse.  The faux progressives use them for cover.  If you watch votes the party pretends to want to win but (BIG SIGH) loses every time, you start to notice a pattern.  The DINOS are reliable sell outs.  Many of the others take turns.  They cast just enough tragicly losing progressive votes to play the martyr, the "I did all I could, but the DINOS wouldn't let us win".  (Wink. Wink).  Then next time, they vote with the DINOS and let some other faux progressive make the tragicly failing progressive vote.

We've been conned for a long time.

It's not the DINOS.  It's not Obama.  It's the party.

Time for a change.  The party you are voting for is not on your side now and it will not be on your side next year.  


[ Parent ]
I think you're right, sadly. (4.00 / 1)
On some level, I would really like like to see the Dems loose big so that the party could be reconstituted as a progressive party. But then I look at the (corporate carpet) Baggers and imagine what life will be like under their thumb. I honestly don't think what's left of our democracy will survive them. But then again, a slow death at the hands of the merit-stocrats may be worse then a sudden violent breakdown--one that contains the possibility of major/real change?

Lordy! as my Grandma used to say.


[ Parent ]
Greens are not a real choice. (4.00 / 1)
Dividing the vote now, at a time when every vote will count, can only lead to the rethugs winning big. Let's narrow our scope in bringing progressives and good liberals through this elections, and let's stop worrying about the Dems in general. It's useless anyhow, there's too few progressives to save them all, even if there wouldn't be an enthusiasm gap. And many of those to the right of us don't deserve to be saved anyhow. Really, progressives first now, let's fight for the team, not for the whole effing college!

[ Parent ]
Choice time past for many (0.00 / 0)
The time for choice was during the primary.  This cycle, as in virtually every one in the last 50 years Republicans pushed further right while Democrats pushed for either the status quo or to the right.

A majority of House seats are safe either for Republicans or Democrats.  If, for example, a hundred House seats are competitive, than 335 are safe.  That means that 3/4 of us are perfectly free to vote Green, or Working Families, or whatever other party we choose with absolutely no repercussions.

I happen to live in a safe Republican CD.  Five miles down the road, it is a safe Democratic seat.  Actually, two of them depending whether you head east or southeast.  In 2008, facing a similar situation (safe election), I voted Green for President and a straight Democratic ticket for the rest of my votes to show that I wanted a more leftist candidate.


[ Parent ]
I don't have a choice in Washington State (4.00 / 1)
I have only the choice of voting for Rick Larsen, a consistent centrist or a fire-breathing, tax cutting, social conservative, program slashing Republican named John Koster.  I can't even write in a 3rd Party candidate.  In a misguided attempt to free the people of Washington State from the clutches of the parties in the primaries the voters of this state killed any hope for third parties in this damn "top two" system.

Educate, Agitate, Organize, Mobilize, Act!


[ Parent ]
Yes, and now CA just voted to have the same system (0.00 / 0)
Fuck.

[ Parent ]
Stupid, inexplicable vote (0.00 / 0)
According to Politics1 there are 92 candidates for the Senate or House from liberal third parties on the ballot.  There are 12 in California representing the Green Party, the Peace and Freedom Party and one independent in CA-8.  

Eliminating choice for voters is a terrible idea.  The newspapers supported this.  I can only expect that they think it means two big pay days every cycle rather than one.


[ Parent ]
in that case it does make sense to not vote (0.00 / 0)
let all neolibs just lose.

[ Parent ]
in that case it does make sense to not vote (0.00 / 0)
let all neolibs just lose.

[ Parent ]
In such cases you have a point, of course. (0.00 / 0)
I'm just advocating against any unhelpful generalisations. It would be tragic if our folks prevented a good progressive from winning in a tight race by wasting votes for a green candidate instead. Take good care that you put your vote to the best possible use, pls! And don't shoot the progressives in the foot.

[ Parent ]
So what? (4.00 / 2)
What's the difference?  Let them win.  Heck, if we can't get the party to represent us at least we can make them lose.  At least we can enact retribution.  At least we can throw the bums out.  

They can only find 55 Democrats who will commit to not cutting Social Security!  SOCIAL SECURITY!!  The third rail!!!!

They're willing to cave on Social Security and you think we lose something if they are defeated!

There is not one thread in the safety net they are willing to commit to preserving.  


[ Parent ]
They can't win. (0.00 / 0)
Not enough Green voters. This is delusional.

[ Parent ]
I Half Agree (4.00 / 12)
We need to ally with him tactically.

But we need to oppose him strategically.

Easier, much easier said than done.

But I believe this is the mix we must find some way to achieve.

More on this to come.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
That makes sense. (4.00 / 1)
There needs to be other ideas, other possibilities.  

And the alliance is for elections.  After November, we need to agitate.  And in 2012, I think we have to supporrt Obama against the R candidate.  


[ Parent ]
A word of caution: (4.00 / 7)
Blind obedience gets you nothing but contempt from those you pledge it to.

We don't have to support Obama at all. Right now, their assumption is that we will, regardless of how his administration behaves. Unless it can be demonstrated to them that this is entirely conditional on certain results, then any amount of "strategizing" is a complete waste of time.

I'll differ with Paul on this. I don't think it's clear Progressives can have a workable strategy that involves allying with the current leadership. I'm not ruling it out, mind you, but ultimately the goal should be to replace leadership, not keep them in place. This, of course, makes any tactical alliance with these same people difficult in the extreme. But again, I'm not ruling it out. I have some questions in this regard.

Progressives have a habit of short-circuiting strategic thought out of immediate tactical necessity. It's understandable, given the situation, but it doesn't lead us anywhere but to More Of The Same.

"Nobody is actually starving. The hobos, for example, are better fed than they have ever been. Hobos are eating well, in fact one had ten meals in a single day." -- Pres. Herbert Hoover, 1932


[ Parent ]
I'm Startung My Analysis From The Pragmatic Framework of "What Do We Need?" (4.00 / 3)
Not from ontological assumptions about what sorts of things actually exist.

Maybe what we need will lead us to discover that we can make good progress with something else entirely, something that we haven't thought of before.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
That's good. (0.00 / 0)
"What we need" = Goals, right? Or at least that's one way of looking at it.

So that strikes me as a very useful starting point. It's very concrete. Of course, what we need is also somewhat dependent on "What we're about," but I don't have any real concerns about that question either. I'm not expecting much controversy on that point.

"Nobody is actually starving. The hobos, for example, are better fed than they have ever been. Hobos are eating well, in fact one had ten meals in a single day." -- Pres. Herbert Hoover, 1932


[ Parent ]
I don't do (0.00 / 0)
"blind obedience" so I think you miss the point.  

[ Parent ]
Fair enough. But thus far, that's what we've seen in this screwy relationship. (4.00 / 1)
As long as Progressives continue to act like Battered Wives, we'll continue to be treated that way.

"Nobody is actually starving. The hobos, for example, are better fed than they have ever been. Hobos are eating well, in fact one had ten meals in a single day." -- Pres. Herbert Hoover, 1932

[ Parent ]
We don't "have" to do anything (4.00 / 1)
and Obama is precisely counting on such a statement as "I think we have to supporrt Obama against the R candidate" to get away with doing all this anti-liberal stuff and still get the liberal vote in 2012.

[ Parent ]
You realize, of course, that you're allying yourself with your enemy? (4.00 / 6)
This doesn't make any sense. Why would anyone ally themselves with people who have nothing but disdain for them? It's like the idea of RFK stumping for Strom Thurmond, expecting the latter to become less the hateful bigot in exchange for the help. It's ridiculous.

So the "failure" you understandably foresee isn't merely a probability. It's guaranteed. In other words, "You can't get there from here."

Of course, what you're saying illustrates very nicely why this party is such an abysmal failure. As long as they can count on people like you to support them, they don't have to be accountable for anything they do, because there will always be people around to make BS excuses for them. And in this election cycle, that's all they've got at this point: Excuses. The real problem with all this, of course, is that all those people who have been watching their communities being destroyed aren't all that interested in excuses. They positively need results and they aren't getting them.

We are stuck with a two-party system that ceased to function on a useful level many years ago. I wish there was a simple answer to this, but the bottom line, methinks, is that we hitched ourselves to our enemies' wagons and it failed to produce positive results. More of the same won't offer any better results now than it did then.

We can't get there from here.

"Nobody is actually starving. The hobos, for example, are better fed than they have ever been. Hobos are eating well, in fact one had ten meals in a single day." -- Pres. Herbert Hoover, 1932


[ Parent ]
Most alliances are with "an enemy" (4.00 / 1)
or at least someone with different goals and methods than you would prefer. The thing is, the alliance is normally caused because there is a greater threat that the allies need to deal with.

Alliances are inherently very messy but almost always necessary. The Bush/Cheney foreign policy clearly demonstrates the folly of focusing on the messy and assuming away the necessary.  


[ Parent ]
Right. But what, then, is the basis of an alliance... (4.00 / 3)
.... between Progs and Neo-Libs? That's my question.

It's a given for me that politics makes for strange bedfellows and all, but I'm having a hard time seeing what the basis for this alliance is in the first place?

This alliance has existed for many years now and what's it gotten the country, not to mention us?

An "alliance" implies some sort of partnership. They get something, we get something. Thus far, all we've gotten is shit in our shoes and Great Depression 2.0.

Where's the payoff in that?

"Nobody is actually starving. The hobos, for example, are better fed than they have ever been. Hobos are eating well, in fact one had ten meals in a single day." -- Pres. Herbert Hoover, 1932


[ Parent ]
So far what we have gotten is (0.00 / 0)
very few old-fashioned David Duke level racists actually in office and No Dominionists so far putting the U.S. law under biblical law. The libertarians rarely are up front about their plans before Ron and Rand Paul. (Greenspan, Dick Armey and Phil Gramm all had to keep it pretty much toned down.)

If keeping those people on the outside of government looking in then the sacrifice of the public policy in the health care reform bill doesn't seem too high a price to me. Nor does putting up with another anti-progressive like Obama as President. You may not see the likelihood of those things as a big deal. I live in Texas in the Southern Baptist Theocracy. Go look at the Platform of the Texas State Republican Party. It makes Ron Paul and "Rev." John Haggee of San Antonio look positively sane.

It seems to me that you are complaining a lot about how we are not approaching perfection without looking at the chasm we are hanging over.  


[ Parent ]
The health care "reform" law WAS pretty much what "those people" wanted (4.00 / 1)
[ Parent ]
Well, you being in Texas, I can understand some of this. (0.00 / 0)
When I lived in Arizona, I used to think in a similar fashion at times.

But this isn't about perfection at all. This is about what works and does some good, versus what doesn't work and only causes more (and worse) problems.

HCR will prove a massive policy failure. It will damage the economy and create even more poverty. That's not a good trade-off. Hell, I'm going to be priced out of healthcare before the thing even takes effect and then I'll be a criminal! Yeah, I'm looking forward to that "victory."

But you and I are talking about different things here. I'm talking about moving an agenda forward and you're playing defense thinking you just want to keep the Huns at bay--which is understandable from your viewpoint, sadly.

As a Progressive, I'm rather stuck on the word, "progress." If something isn't working, I tend to want to chuck it out the window and try something else that does work.

To mangle Clausewitz, the best defense is a good offense. We've been playing defense for far too long now and we've settled for what you lay out and it's gotten us--and the country--only into deeper trouble.

It's time to get out of that mentality and start thinking in more forward terms, IMO.

"Nobody is actually starving. The hobos, for example, are better fed than they have ever been. Hobos are eating well, in fact one had ten meals in a single day." -- Pres. Herbert Hoover, 1932


[ Parent ]
"Why would anyone ally themselves with people who have nothing but disdain for them?" (0.00 / 0)
When asked how he could make an alliance with Stalin, Churchill said, "If Hitler invaded hell I would make at least a favorable reference to the devil in the House of Commons."

Even Howard Zinn said that there's some validity to the lesser of two evils argument; he said something like what do you want, the worse of two evils?

I have to admit I'd vote for the Blue Doggiest Blue Dog for President if I was sure that by not doing so I'd get Sarah Palin or Sharon Angle or Michele Bachman.

Educate, Agitate, Organize, Mobilize, Act!


[ Parent ]
I see your point, (4.00 / 1)
although I wouldn't compare any domestic alliance with one like the Allies in WW2.

I'm not sure how well the "lesser of two evils" thing is going to play out going forward. The Party Leadership seems more interested in making kissy face with the GOP than us, so I'm not sure how any such alliance between Progs and Neo-Libs would work. Indeed, the Dem Leadership has more in common with the GOP Leadership than they do with the Dem electoral base.

It seems to me Progressive interests are very much at odds with Neo-Liberal interests. What's the basis for common interests, which is at the heart of any alliance? At least with Stalin we both had a common enemy in Nazi Germany.

The GOP and the Dem Leadership both share a very similar hostility for Progressives and liberals. To my mind, that's where the common interests are, not with us.

I mean, that's what all this "post-partisan" crap is all about anyway.

"Nobody is actually starving. The hobos, for example, are better fed than they have ever been. Hobos are eating well, in fact one had ten meals in a single day." -- Pres. Herbert Hoover, 1932


[ Parent ]
I think the kochs who actually fund both the dlc and the (0.00 / 0)
tea party are using bogeycons to get you to do precisely that. You are being manipulated. Get some spine!

[ Parent ]
Please do not accuse those of us who disagree (0.00 / 0)
about whether the lesser of two evils argument has any validity as not having a spine.

I could make an argument that you have no heart for the people who will be hurt more by the greater of two evils than the lesser of two evils.  But I don't believe you have no heart, you just have a different view of what needs to be done.

Educate, Agitate, Organize, Mobilize, Act!


[ Parent ]
I voted lesser evil at one point (0.00 / 0)
so I was where you are, and I was motivated by fear of things that came to pass even under democrats because the democrats were compromised.  Bailouts were one of my biggest fears.  I feared they would start openly stealing from the rest of us.

Accuse me of having no heart, if it makes you feel  good.  In reality, I just see where this leads.


[ Parent ]
But I don't think you have no heart (0.00 / 0)
I used that as an example of how it diverts the discussion and confuses personal qualities with honest difference of opinions on what is the best course.

Educate, Agitate, Organize, Mobilize, Act!


[ Parent ]
It was amazing in MA after Coakley's defeat (4.00 / 3)
Politicians to democratic base: we lost because YOU DIDN"T ACTIVELY SUPPORT MARTHA

Democratic base: Martha was siding with the no public option, & taxing  middle class heath care benefits...this wasn't the change we voted for and we aren't going to perpetuate it.

Politicians to base: this is the best we can do

Dem base to politicians: you nver even tried, you caved  and you support those who caved at the slightest HINT of a battle......again, this wasn't the change we voted for in 2008

Politicians to dem base: Look, the public is turning conservative, what would you have us do?

Dem base to politicians: advocate REAL CHANGE that's what people want...stop offering Republicann lite...they are using their votes as weapons because you aren't listening or advocating for what people want.

Politicians to dem base: we should have done more phone banks and visibility

Dem base to politicians: you just don't GET IT. It's about MORE than elections, it's about policies.

and on and on and on each meeting post election went.

All politicians referenced in this dialogue were local politicians( State Reps and Selectmen) and MA DEM State Party officials

I atteneded 3 of these sessions


[ Parent ]
I don't know what you mean by "ally with" (4.00 / 6)
If you mean, supporting him when he's right, of course.

If you mean supporting him when he's wrong -- on the Catood Commission and Afghanistan, for example -- of course not.

If you mean embracing him as a progressive, no. (Quite the contrary, it's critical for the future of progressivism to make clear he's no progressive.)

If you mean depicting him as all kinds of awesome, no.

If you mean depicting him as anything other than  a neo-liberal, no.

If you mean rejecting a primary challenge out of hand, no.

Supporting him when he's right sounds simple enough, something we can all agree on, until reality intrudes, and we're debating whether or not he's right, and whether a corporate-friendly bill is better than no bill at all. On the health care bill, for example, there was huge pressure on progressives to support it -- to support him -- because to do otherwise was to cause the deaths of 50,000 people a year not to mention the death of the Democratic Party. Or there's an election, and the prospect of the evil Republicans "forces" labor leaders to pretend Obama's terrific on their issues even though everyone, especially the rank and file, know he's not, and at Daily Kos everyone closes rank behind Obama in a depressing display of tribalism.

Ultimately it's a hard circle to square. A hard needle to thread. If you're going to stay within the Democratic Party, how do you position yourself vis a vis Obama and his Neo-liberal administration? You can take the Hamsher path and be vilified by most progressives and left out to dry by your ostensible allies, your effectiveness limited by your marginalization. Or you can take the Bowers' path, shutting down your criticism of Obama and making peace with his neo-liberalism in a misguided attempt to have "an impact."

This is why no small number of progressive say goodbye to all that and look for an alternative.  



[ Parent ]
And your alternative is? (0.00 / 0)
What path do you offer?


[ Parent ]
I thought you'd never ask (4.00 / 2)
For the time being, I align myself with the Rosenbergs (Paul, not Julius), the Greenwalds, the Hamshers -- people trying to build a progressive movement within the Democratic party, and perhaps beyond, a movement based on principle, boldness, a belief that you can do well by doing good. That's the idea to which I committed myself when I re-entered the party after voting for Nader and then stumbled upon a place called the netroots. I'll stick with this for at least a few more years, although I'm more open to a third party than the people named above.

I know, I know, you're committed to building a progressive movement as well, we all are, but I think you're going about it the wrong way, trying to create unity on Daily Kos, an effort that amounts to making nice nice with neoliberals and neoliberalism. I supported Edwards, and you did too, precisely because he waged battle, at least rhetorically, against corporate Democrats. There's a battle that needs to be waged and won within the Democratic party and you're not fighting that battle anymore. At least not consistently. I don't know how you don't get whiplash, praising Rosenberg one second and blackwaterdog the next.

I consider you a friend as well, in the blogospheric sense of the word, but I find your writing and commenting these days incoherent at best, hypocritical at worst.



[ Parent ]
Capitalism is quite stong. (0.00 / 0)
You fail to take that into account in your analyses.  Why on earth would they let the Democrat Party be turned into a real anti-capitalist vehicle?

In addition, a majority of  people reject many of your (and my) core positions.  That's a problem.  When white workers choose skin privilege over class, when black workers choose identify politics over class, etc., your rhetoric does not reach them, let alone pursuade. People have to be approached in different ways, awakened to the class struggle slowly and organically through their own lives.  

I think Deoliver47 (Black Kos) understands that.  I also think the Panthers were left.  (She was with Eldride in Algeria in 1972).  She takes a long view and I can ally with her on mnay things.  

I am far more pessimistic about any possible deep change than you are.  Had you stayed at Daily Kos and engaged there, you might understand.  Here you can find an echo chamber of leftists and center leftists and it seems much easier.  

As for this:

I don't know how you don't get whiplash, praising Rosenberg one second and blackwaterdog the next.

It's easy.  Practical politics means creating coalitions, having immediate and long programmes, short term and long term goals.  When the working class is so weak, there is a need for consciousness raising.  Edwards was that for me.  It's a long struggle.

Bwd helps build pride, among other things.  Some folks look at those pictures and they see a person who is President who looks like themselves.  What can look like a cult to some folks, is very empowering to others.  Black Kos has helped me understand that in a much better way than I did at times in the past.

Paul provides an intellecutual understanding of things I often find enlightening.  Paul and bwd are not contradictory to me.  

Paul's analysis means little to poor folks, to many AAs, to hispanics facing discrimination.  Intellectuals like me like it, but it's not the only way.  Bwd reaches many people. When Obama says unions are good, it helps raise consciousness.  When he fights extension or the Bush ax cuts, it helps raise consciousness.

What you may see as a deeply left criticism of Obama as a neo-liberal, many AAs see as white privilege.  They can't afford you intellectual criticism.

In the end, you fail to take much into account.  It seems easy for you to attack all who fail to see the correct political line.  You are reaching very few people here.  I don't see how you get from here to changing anything.

I likely will fail in my efforts, and I have been failing for 40 years.  I've gone left, I've gone collarborationist, fundi Green, lots of places, and capitalism rolls on.

Right now I am on a Bernsteinian path, and trying to build some support for unions and working class solidarity, but I'll probably fail to have an impact. Nonetheless, this is my best guess for any possible good impact.  

You go your way and I'll go mine.  Good luck.

I think we fundamentally disagree on some tactics.  Good luck.  


[ Parent ]
Glenn Ford and Black agenda are panthers too (0.00 / 0)
and they can prove this because they post under their real names and they have come to very different conclusions than deoliver.

I am not surprised that a supporter of Obama is more cynical about change than someone who does.


[ Parent ]
If you buy catfood, you eat catfood (4.00 / 6)
If you vote for the guy who is going to serve you catfood, you deserve the catfood you get fed.

I'm not buying catfood.  I won't vote for catfood.  If they serve me catfood, they're going to have to force feed it to me.  I won't surrender to it and pretend I like it.

If I have to I'll write in my cat.


[ Parent ]
Very astute post. (4.00 / 11)
Indeed, almost all of the right-wing vilification of out of touch, elitist liberals is really true... of neoliberals. The latter truly are the most dangerous enemy of the left. Their way is precisely the road to Gary Shteyngart's authoritarian "Bipartisan Party" (after all, the dystopian near future of Super Sad True Love Story is merely a very straightforward extrapolation of current trends.)

Put on your safety glasses (4.00 / 8)
To be sure, there's more than one form of epistemic closure afoot in our world. The point you repeatedly make, that it's virulent in all its forms, and fatal if left unchecked, is falling on largely deaf ears. I suppose you could get away with defining education as indoctrination, if the indoctrinators knew what the fuck they were doing, but of course they never do. Unfortunately, the less they know, the more sure of themselves they become, and the more justified they feel in clubbing people who ask inconvenient questions.

I don't usually employ scientific metaphors, largely because I'm an ignoramus when it comes to anything discovered after about 1960, but this one, from my study of chemistry aeons ago seems relevant here: What we're facing is in some ways the political and moral equivalent of a massively exothermic reaction, one which nothing currently available can stop from going to completion. We're fooled into thinking that the reaction vessel is stable because

a) we can't see inside it (we've willfully blinded ourselves)

b) in its early stages, the reaction proceeds slowly

and

c) we've burned the notes of previous researchers, who were either killed, or ran away and swore never to come back when they saw the consequences of what they'd done.


Ah, But (4.00 / 4)
We DO have the notes.  Heck, the Founders had them!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Yeah, well.... (4.00 / 9)
Not reading them isn't exactly the same as burning them, I suppose, given that a few of us have squirreled copies of them away in our caves, where we read them by candlelight and wait for an opening in the hysteria somewhere so that we can tell others about them.

Still, for the time being, Newt Gingrich is an intellectual, President Obama is a statesman, and Israeli-trained thugs from Xe Services are the forces of Law and Order. We're still on the playground, wiping our coke-bottle glasses, and protesting that we're NOT know-it-alls.


[ Parent ]
Hush, William! (4.00 / 1)
Not reading them isn't exactly the same as burning them....

Don't go giving anyone any ideas.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Yes, we have notes on all kinds of things, like economics for starters... (4.00 / 3)
But as William points out, they are in fact being burned within the national discourse and hardly anyone in actual power is even willing to save them. This, of course, is the primary catalyst of the reaction taking place.

We've known for 70 years how to deal with a crippling financial crisis. But that's not the problem. The unwillingness to use that knowledge is the real problem. That's what's causing the destruction of our domestic economy. It's a choice they're making and a really bad one at that.

The reaction about to boil over is due to the fact these smug Know-Nothings think they're somehow superior to all that we collectively know. They make it necessary.


"Nobody is actually starving. The hobos, for example, are better fed than they have ever been. Hobos are eating well, in fact one had ten meals in a single day." -- Pres. Herbert Hoover, 1932


[ Parent ]
Strange one for me (4.00 / 3)
As one more data point, I largely agree with your assessment.  It is too consistent with everything else we now know about how Obama operates.

But at the same time, this post is exactly the kind of overreaction that always used to bother me; I haven't completely left that behind.

We all hate being over analyzed in our work and we all will complain a bit when given a sympathetic ear.  What Obama said is also compatible with him being a human being who is trying his best.

Stepping back, it is hard for me not to see a parallel between Obama complaining about being criticized by progressives and progressives complaining about being criticized by Obama.  Because lets be honest, on a human dimension, the parallel is pretty strong.

That said, I agree 100% with this:

There's not even any base-motivating vow to fight to fix these particular failures (we'll keep fighting for a public option/to curb executive power abuses/to reduce lobbyist and corporate control of our political process).

Obama promised to be honest about the problems we face, but he never has been.  He always claims that any solution passed is exactly correct.  He could easily claim he has other opinions while simultaneously thanking those (Snow, etc.) for meeting him half way.  He never, ever does that.

We also know, from what we've seen in decisions not involving congress, that he isn't particularly progressive in a variety of areas such as civil liberties.  Certainly, this whining by Obama provides yet another data point on who Obama is, and not a positive one.


Sorry If I Rubbed You The Wrong Way A Bit, Mark (4.00 / 2)
I would only refer you to the rest of your own comment. All I would add is that it would be quite a different matter if Obama routinely complained about others who've given him a great deal more static than we have.

Anyway, as you can tell from this post, I'm pretty much not interested in "being fair" to Obama at this point. I'm interested in comprehending him as well as possible in order to contribute to the development of effective counter-strategies. Of course, as a consequence, this includes being fair-minded in making evaluations. Just not to the extent that I worry about hurting feelings.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
But he does (4.00 / 1)
All I would add is that it would be quite a different matter if Obama routinely complained about others who've given him a great deal more static than we have.

But he does.  He complains about the right all the time.  There were several examples just this past week or so.  We amplify his complaints about the left and dismiss his complaints about the right, but don't confuse our filter with what actually gets said.


[ Parent ]
Excuse Me, Mark (4.00 / 4)
But when it's mattered most, Obama has praised Republicans who've obstructed his agenda.  Complaining months or years later, when it's election time hardly compares with praising them right after they've repeatedly blocked your supposed agenda.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Concur (4.00 / 2)
I get the feeling that Obama feels especially pained that after all his effort he is getting criticism from the Left. Either he and his team are feeling threatened or they are trying to squelch criticism from the left because it weakens their position on things they need to push through.

Paul, you have put into words what I have felt for a long time. My understanding is that FDR and LBJ both went out of their way to have close advisers who gave them bad news when they felt he needed it. I have seen no such individuals inside the White House staff, at least not in the media that I have access to. Instead Obama seems to have filled his staff with proud yes-men much like Rham Emmanuel and they exclude other voices because they are the experts and know better.

That's not a minor matter of "tone." It's a major weakness in the Presidency.  


[ Parent ]
Are you saying that Obama is Jerry Lewis (4.00 / 1)
who was surrounded by people who praised him so much he lost any sense of what was really funny?

I was watching the end of the film "The Patsy" the other night waiting for what came on next.  I said to my mom, "The only people who thought this was funny besides Jerry Lewis were those who worked for him, children younger than nine years old or the French."

My mom, who is 86, said, "But didn't you like Jerry Lewis?"

"Well yeah, but I was a child under the age of nine at the time."

Educate, Agitate, Organize, Mobilize, Act!


[ Parent ]
"When it matters most" (4.00 / 1)
Which you'll notice is exactly what I complained about above.  But then, he's never complained about liberals "when it matters most" either.  This post, for example, is complaining about something Obama said at some fundraiser, exactly the same type of venue where he complains about conservatives the most.

If you assume Obama is a liberal, then you've compiled great evidence that the assumption is wrong.  But once you start looking at Obama as a neutral entity then you'll notice he complains about the right far more than the left.  Even through the filter of Open Left that is apparent.

Because he is supposed to complain about the right, we don't hear it.  Because he is supposed to be our friend, our ears ring in pain each time he complains about us.  But drop the "supposed to"s and you get a very different picture.

I'll be quiet now.  Your main point, which I actually agree with, is more important than mine.  (But I'm right, damn it!)  Besides, I can hear Travis logging on, home from work...


[ Parent ]
Very good point (0.00 / 0)
I think the "supposed to"s cut both ways on the Obama-progressives relationship as well.

Liberals/progressives complain loudly about Obama because he's "supposed" to do more liberal things.  Obama complains about liberals/progressives because they're "supposed" to like the incrementally liberal things he has gotten done.

I do think that liberals/progressives are right to apply the "supposed to" test to Obama, because of who he is and his background (at least supposedly).  I don't think that Obama is right to apply the same test to us, because we're his boss, not the other way around.  We don't owe him; he owes us.

That said, it is only fair that we give him credit for what good he has done - while maintaining our fully legitimate criticisms of him - and that's something I'm trying to do.


[ Parent ]
it's true, I am (0.00 / 0)
and that fucking asshole campaigned on a bunch of shit he didn't do, which I think is the real problem

also lying about needing 60 votes

also, I'm feeling really lazy lately, I think the OFA crowd has accomplished their mission and sucked the energy right out of me (either that or my 30+ mile commute)


[ Parent ]
There's a big difference (0.00 / 0)
The right is the opposition.

We're supposed to be his base.  How in the world does it make sense to laugh at us when this is the time we're supposed to be inspired to work for him to GOTV?

Educate, Agitate, Organize, Mobilize, Act!


[ Parent ]
Yeah, if nothing else (0.00 / 0)
this was pretty assholey of President Obama.  I thought he was supposed to be a "nice guy".

[ Parent ]
I agree that the White House has been pretty assholey lately (0.00 / 0)
In Obama's defense, there is a massive learning curve for every President especially in the first two years in office. Just on a pure human level, there is no adequate preparation before getting into office.

I suspect that a lot of Obama's preconceptions of the office were way off the mark, and he doesn't strike me as a person who has ever had to abandon a lot of his strong beliefs in the past. He really should be in something of a state of shock right now, especially since I suspect he really thought he could reach out to the Republicans the way he had been able to in the Senate.

I addition to all the normal shocks, he did not plan on the threat of the Second Great Depression. Nor was he ready for the Republican Party of "No" who has abandoned all effort to protect America in order to regain office at any cost.

If Obama is not shocked and very angry then he is not human. And worse, with the reputation of "No drama Obama" to live up to, he can't even blow off steam. He might be caught. And as President he is emotionally separated from even his closest staff. Then there is the fact that Obama is relatively young and has no real history of failure to fall back on. Someone who has not failed before has a harder time dealing with failure than someone with experience facing major problems.

I'd expect someone in that position to be somewhat emotionally unpredictable occasionally.  


[ Parent ]
By the way, the name of the man (4.00 / 2)
who hosted the event was...Rich Richman.

Yeah, I'd say there's an opening for a progressive populist challenge to these two parties of the rich man. Too bad the only populist challenge is probably gonna come form Lou Dobbs.  


Ugh (4.00 / 3)
Just reading the name "Lou Dobbs" makes me reflexively stick my tongue out and say, "Blaaaaghhh".  

[ Parent ]
Rome had to endure 1,000 years of Darkness (0.00 / 0)
to purge the hubris that we today see in the Limousine Liberal crowd.

[ Parent ]
Excellent post (4.00 / 1)
and it's reminding of something I was thinking of earlier today.  One of Lakoff's insights about ideology is that it is both an identity and a mode of thought, and the two don't necessarily match up.  The last time we were talking about Lakoff around here, I think the conversation got bogged down because some thought Lakoff was talking about kinds of thought.  Here, there is plenty of evidence that Obama and other elite Dems are offering neo-liberal thinking. To me, that is the most important thing.  Others want to classify him (or other elites) as a person. I'm far less invested in that.  Regardless, it strikes me that if we want to reach out to people who aren't already on board, the former makes more sense.  

You are right that we're not going to change how Obama thinks, but if we change the context in which he operates, we still might change his behavior.

Politics is the art of the possible, but that means you have to think about changing what is possible, not that you have to accept it in perpetuity.


Precisely (4.00 / 1)
You are right that we're not going to change how Obama thinks, but if we change the context in which he operates, we still might change his behavior.

We need to understand the context and how he perceives and responds to that context.  Ideology is first and foremost a map of how one slices up the world.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
2012 (4.00 / 1)
is his context.  There's no there, there.  He ran for the Senate because it was there.  He ran for President because it was there.  He runs for office.  He has no other context.    

[ Parent ]
As progressives (4.00 / 1)
we would reject any policy idea that offered so simple and individualistic an explanation for the world.  I don't see how we can use the same framework for understanding politics that we would rightly reject when it comes to policy.  

Obama's behavior are not outside the norm of the Democratic Party. You can tell because so few elites in the party push back.  So replace him and the problems remain.  That doesn't mean you cannot blame him for his mistakes, but this is still an institutional problem which requires an institutional solution.  

Besides, what has the WH done that suggests re-election is their sole motivation?  It seems to me that things would be substantially better if it were.  

Politics is the art of the possible, but that means you have to think about changing what is possible, not that you have to accept it in perpetuity.


[ Parent ]
elitism is a good explanation of the fix we're in (4.00 / 2)
and why a lot of Democratic pundits (one who posts here!) have no interest in opposing the mandate- "who doesn't have an extra $200-$500 laying around at the end of each month?" they think

shape versus numbers (0.00 / 0)
The problem is the subsidies and defined minimum service, not the mandate itself.  While a few have suggested creative solutions around the mandate without requiring full single payer, something like that is necessary.

In other words, it isn't the shape of HCR that might screw you over, it is the numbers.  Passing the shape was next to impossible, but it happened.  Changing the numbers is relatively easy.


[ Parent ]
"subsidies" (0.00 / 0)
all delivered in the form of tax breaks, which doesn't soften the massive blow of monthly premiums

also, where's the bill that will "change the numbers"?  where's the traction for this idea?

I like how you frame your response in terms of "without requiring single payer"- yes, heavens forefend we do the thing that is proven to work...but the market will correct itself, right?  right?

this is such annoying horseshit, I'm expected by OFA types like you to just hold tight and hope (blindly) that someone will somehow fix the fact that as it stands, I'm going to be punished by the IRS because I choose to have savings/a functioning car/decent food over tithing that money to Aetna.  glad you can afford it bro, the rest of us can eat cake I suppose


[ Parent ]
Tax Credit != Tax Break (0.00 / 0)
Subsidies are in the form of tax credits mean you get the money, regardless of any actual taxes you pay.  If you work for a company with 50 employees, it is the company that will provide the plan, anyway.


[ Parent ]
but I still wouldn't get the money until tax season, right? (0.00 / 0)
so the rest of the year I can just live check-to-check in exchange for the privilege of not having enough to meet my deductible anyway

also my work provides "coverage", it is paper thin and more than I can afford to pay for


[ Parent ]
Don't Think So (0.00 / 0)
Taxes are deducted from each pay check, or in this case, added in.  

[ Parent ]
proof? (0.00 / 0)
waiting patiently!

[ Parent ]
Ergo, nothing we didn't know in 2008 (0.00 / 0)
Perhaps what struck me most about this morally despicable performance is how perfectly Obama embodied the conservative caricature of an out-of-touch liberal elitist

Remember Red + Blue = Purple?

Russia at fault for neo-con aggression in South Ossetia?

Obama was the bucket of water you throw onto your burning home: you know it won't put out the fire, but you throw it anyway.

The left activists and intergovernmental folk made a tragic and arrogant decision; they could have worked with well meaning folks from across the political spectrum to bring about real change, or they could sail with HMS Obama into the shoals of neo-conservatism.

You chose the latter and only too late decided to backtrack.

Better luck next time. In 2014.


You might be overanalyzing this, Paul (0.00 / 0)
I think the explanation is quite simple: President Obama was frustrated, he voiced those frustrations and he came off as a total douche.

he does that very well (4.00 / 1)
nt

[ Parent ]
Both (4.00 / 1)
As I've said above, Obama's statements are consistent with simple human frustration.

But it is also completely true that he feels it is ok to talk this way.  More than ok, really.

It isn't a one or another thing.  When we go with the simple explanation and dehumanize, we lose sight of the possibilities.  (I know Paul doesn't believe in simple explanations, this isn't really directed at him.)

We know Obama isn't a true progressive.  But there are many possibilities between "one of us" and "the enemy".  The discussion above about alliances, for example, is great.


[ Parent ]
I agree (0.00 / 0)
I'm not saying that President Obama has no reason to be frustrated.  I'd probably be frustrated too.  But I wouldn't express it the same way.  I wouldn't mock those who are on our side, and if I did I wouldn't just stop there and completely dismiss their concerns.

[ Parent ]
You'd Be Right (0.00 / 0)
if this was an isolated incident.

But it's exactly the opposite. Instead, it's a single very revealing piece of the jigsaw puzzle.  And I'm not writing about the shape of the one piece.  I'm writing about the bit picture it's part of.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Just remember to look at all the pieces (0.00 / 0)
not just the red ones.

[ Parent ]
Thank you, thank you, thank you, Paul. (4.00 / 4)
This is without a doubt the most insightful an cogent analysis of what is so wrong with the Obama doctrine specifically and neo-liberalism in general. You've given me a rhetorical gift I can refer to again and again in my arguments for a more just, free and equitable society. Bless you.

Yes, that analysis should (4.00 / 1)
be bottled and distributed to detractors and supporters alike.  It would help alleviate the cognitive dissonance of hearing "race to the top" rhetoric and predator drone jokes from someone you believe shares your progressive values.  (I never held that belief but I hadn't pegged him as so devoid of empathy he could joke about drones.)

[ Parent ]




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