Like the Bible says (aka "Keep it simple, stupid!")

by: Paul Rosenberg

Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 18:00


Look, ya'll know I can get as complicated as anyone.  But I really don't have to.  Case in point:

On Wednesday, digby wrote a piece, "Compassionate Conservatism" in which she quote extensively from an interchange on unemployment insurance between Elliot Spitzer and Ralph Reed, which she intro's by reminding us:

You all recall that Ralph Reed was the head of the Christian Coalition for many years and is still considered a leader of the Christian Right, fully forgiven for all his sins.

And you'll also recall that Elliot Spitzer is an immoral libertine who had to be run out of politics for sleeping with a prostitute.

 Here' the tail end of the quoted interchange:

SPITZER: It's impossible to get a job out there. You cannot say to those folks -- we should not as a society say, we won't give you enough money to put food on the table for your kids. And the threshold that you're talking about, everybody agrees there should be a threshold. And you know what? We can set it when unemployment gets below 7 percent, 6 percent, 5 percent -- pick a number that we can agree upon that makes sense but not when it's 9.6 percent, or realistically, 16, 17, 18 percent.

This is simply not humane to say to people we won't give you food -- money for food and yet we're giving a tax break to millionaires. That's not the society I believe the United States represents.

REED: Well, that's the problem with making fiscal policy based on the misplaced compassion that doesn't work. The empirical evidence, Eliot, is very clear, which is that people are more likely to reenter the workforce and find a real job that carries with it dignity, self support and no longer being dependent upon the government when those unemployment benefits run out.

That's the empirical evidence.

And then digby says:

The empirical evidence that there are no jobs is simply not relevant to Reed, who evidently truly believes that the long term unemployed are all malingering cheats who need to be "motivated" and that government has no business being compassionate. It's a perfect example of the moral depravity and selfishness of the Christian Right. Meanwhile, it's the horrible (Jewish) commie libertine who's arguing for compassion for his fellow Americans --- as Jesus would surely do.

But this is surely far too intellectual.  And far too secular, too.

So, what I want to know is where in the Bible does a poor man come to Jesus, asking what he needs to do to be saved, and Jesus tells him: sell yourself and all your family and all your descendents-to-be into slavery, and take all the money you get and give it to Pharaoh for a tax break.

Just show me one place in the Bible where it says that, and I'll sign up for the GOP economic program--BAM!--just like that.

Otherwise?  Not so much.

Paul Rosenberg :: Like the Bible says (aka "Keep it simple, stupid!")

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You fail to take "The Family's" Perverse Christianity into account (4.00 / 2)
What no one, except perhaps followers of Rachel Maddow's and Jeff Sharlet's exposés, is taking into account in their utter stupefaction at the viciousness of these so-called Christians is the perverse turn Christianity took under the tutelage of Avram Vereide, Norwegian immigrant who HATED FDR, and in a psychotic dream believed Christ came to him and told him everything everyone knew of Christianity was completely wrong:

--Christ was not for the POOR but for the RICH

--He was not for the weak, but for the POWERFUL

--He was for Dictators over Democracy

so on and so forth.

This is the theological politics espoused by the C Street 'Fellowship' and multiple CEOs in this country since the 1930s.


Isn't it sad that (0.00 / 0)
it is so evident, so out there for all to see, and yet the sheeple continue to listen to the hate mongers, the greedmeisters.

[ Parent ]
The religious right is the southern snobs way of controlling (4.00 / 1)
the blacks and the poor whites.  The Norwegian is a minor influence, yes so is Jesus.

My blog  

[ Parent ]
that's why we kicked the bastard out (0.00 / 0)


Did they get you to trade your heroes for ghosts? Hot ashes for trees? Hot air for a cool breeze? And cold comfort for change?

[ Parent ]
I have tried to get some of (4.00 / 1)
my family and friends who happened to be diehard, right wing Christians to explain to me how this kind of thinking reflects the man/god they claim to follow.  When I point out all the quotes, parables and passages (and there are a ton of them) that clearly show that Jesus Christ, whether a man or a God as they believe, was fighting for social justice.  
I used the parables; Matthew; the beatitudes. ....and all they do is get resentful and angry at me.

I suspect if Ralph Reed, or Glen Beck, or Sarah Palin had to feed people, they would charge them money, unlike Jesus whose supposed miracle was about sharing.  

So much of what made me be a Christian as a child is that the church then, at least my church (catholic of the 1960s) was all about social justice.   NOW, for the last few decades, the Catholics have joined with the right wing becoming cold hearted, pushing a "fear of God" rather than love.   They have stole the name of Christian and turned into something I truly believe would be rejected by the very man they claim to love and want to follow.  The "Christian Right" of today are the Pharisees whom Jesus so despised for how they treated the poor Jews, the disabled and the women.

But these people who follow the likes of the Christian right are money grubbing hucksters, greedy, selfish folks who will manipulate and lie their way to hell (if there is such a place).


Thanks for this comment! Would rate it 4², if I could. (0.00 / 0)
Yup, totally agree on the sad state of "christianity" today, where the vast majority of churches support and even openly propagandize values that have NOTHING to do with what Jesus Christ stood for! Damn, how can it be that real Christians, who see the message of the sermon on the mount as THE guideline for true christian behaviour, have to feel like extremists today???  

[ Parent ]
This Could Be Fun (4.00 / 2)
It has to be in some suppressed Gospel, don't you think? The Book of Lloyd perhaps? Or the book of Jamie? Or maybe it's the book of Karl written by that rascal monk, Brother Rove? Whichever Gospel, I'm sure it's not half as fun or interesting as some of the other Gospels the Catholic Church (at least) deems worthy of ignoring. Perhaps we should watch the History Channel to find out.

Book Of Rahmbo. Produced by an undead Ed Wood hopped up on Adderol. (4.00 / 2)
Quentin Tarantino could direct, if he's not too busy depleting the world's supply of gooey fake blood elsewhere. And instead of spending a lot of money making a film look cheap, he'd just get a really small budget, since this kind of story really demands it.

In the opening scene, an AK packing Jeebus (Sylvestor Stallone perhaps?) reproduces fishes, bread and wine and takes them straight to the palace, so they can be sold back to the starving people at prices that would make Dick Cheney blush, even Pontius Pilate is embarrassed as he assembles his Damage Control Team... only the proper infrastructure for delivery of said overpriced consumables doesn't exist yet, so most of the food spoils while the mercenaries (gotta have those!) drink all the wine, have a raunchy dance party and end up on the Roman Version of YouTube... um, which is to say papyrus graphics drawn up by a soon to be imprisoned historian of now dubious distinction, due to a dalliance in Sweden he still can't live down for some odd reason.... especially since the Swedes are normally cool with that sort of thing....

Okay, so that's the first 15 minutes... only 75 minutes to go!

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know, it's what we know for sure that just ain't so."  - Mark Twain


[ Parent ]
Amen, Brother! (4.00 / 1)
You've got the spirit in you. That's what I meant by fun. Imagine the Bible or the New Testament written by Blue Dog Democrats and Tea Party Republicans.

[ Parent ]
I thank Him for felllow commenters, who provide humor in these dark ages! (0.00 / 0)
Amen.

[ Parent ]
Watch out what you ask for. ::frown:: (0.00 / 0)
The Bible can be used to support almost any position.  So, I hate to say it, but:

"For you yourselves know how you ought to imitate us; we were not idle when we were with you, and we did not eat anyone's bread without paying for it; but with toil and labor we worked night and day, so that we might not burden any of you. This was not because we do not have that right, but in order to give you an example to imitate. For even when we were with you, we gave you this command: Anyone unwilling to work should not eat. For we hear that some of you are living in idleness, mere busybodies, not doing any work. Now such persons we command and exhort in the Lord Jesus Christ to do their work quietly and to earn their own living."  2 Thessalonians 3:7-12

Educate, Agitate, Organize, Mobilize, Act!


Yes, of course. But there's also this one, which seems appropriate for some folks in DC: (4.00 / 2)
"As a dog returns to its vomit, so a fool repeats his folly," (Proverbs 26:11)

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know, it's what we know for sure that just ain't so."  - Mark Twain

[ Parent ]
Well, (4.00 / 3)
it's worth noting here that Paul, per Thomas Jefferson, was the "first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus."  

[ Parent ]
Paul (4.00 / 3)
Actually, the real Paul was a radical.  Over time, others wrote books using his name.  My understanding is what the real Paul wrote is pretty good.

[ Parent ]
I agree very much. (4.00 / 2)
From my studies in Biblical Scholarship and Theology I'm convinced the genuine Paul of Tarsus was a feminist, radical, socialist, universalist who was quite close in his teachings to the open, social justice thinking of the Historical Jesus.

Educate, Agitate, Organize, Mobilize, Act!


[ Parent ]
Aside from the point sb makes (4.00 / 1)
My understanding is this was directed to early Christian communities, which were, essentially, hippie communes. So it was about freeloading off of other poor Christians, not turning over everything to Pharonic overlords.

Bit of difference there. Which is why it clearly doesn't match my criteria.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Of course it doesn't (0.00 / 0)
but the religious right will trot out this passage and others like it to counter challenges like you made.  So I thought we should examine it.

Educate, Agitate, Organize, Mobilize, Act!


[ Parent ]
more on this here (0.00 / 0)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H...

to bolster your point about the myriad intepretations of the bible, it was used by lenin...


[ Parent ]
Sounds like a good argument for (4.00 / 2)
raising the top tax rate, to me. And the estate tax, too.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Yes, actually if Biblicists took this passage seriously (0.00 / 0)
they'd be for 100% taxes on all capital gains and 100% taxes on inheritance.

Educate, Agitate, Organize, Mobilize, Act!


[ Parent ]
if you're waiting for the christian right to start acting christian... (4.00 / 2)
you'll be waiting for a long time :D

kudos for this.


There's A Certain Symmetry Here (0.00 / 0)
since they're not about to start acting right anytime soon, either.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
The biblical literalists do not think the way we do. (4.00 / 1)
It's a mistake to think that biblical literalists actually consider the meanings found in the stories from the Bible. These people are the descendents of "theologians" who objected to studying the Bible as a set of historical documents. Instead of the meaning, they teach the literal word-for-word statement from the Bible and they get the connection between a verse and their actions from the preacher's teachings during Sunday services.

Randal Collins wrote that religion is a set of rituals that groups use to maintain their cohesiveness. From what I can see, the actual verses they share are ways of identifying other members of the religious organization. That's why the question "Have you been born again?" means so much. It's not the meaning of being born again that matters to them. What matters is that another person states "I was born again and I accept Jesus Christ as my Lord." When the person says that the questioner knows that person is a member of the group.

Forget the actual meaning of the teachings of Christianity. The biblical Literalists and the Evangelicals have no clue what you are talking about when you make statements like that. They in fact discourage such independent thought. All that matters is what their preacher said mattered and that everyone in the Church says the right words to prove their membership.  


Not to argue with your take on "literalism", but it seems to me.. (4.00 / 2)
... fundamentalists aren't literalists at all. If there's one thing we can say about fundamentalists from most (if not all) religions, it's that they reshape whatever book it is they're using to suit the needs of their own particular cult. And yes, I'll say it straight out, any fundamentalist creed of the "Christian" sort is a cult, just as I suspect any other fundamentalist sect of any religion is a cult too. Put simply, the Planet is overrun with cults!

Christian Fundies, for example, pretty much ignore the New Testament, which is odd, since that's where all the actual Christianity is. But they don't like all that soothing Christian stuff--love just doesn't inspire the way death and destruction does, apparently. They prefer the nasty stuff of the Old Testament, which is why they constantly blather Leviticus up and down the Square. They prefer floods, plagues, locusts, baby splitting and so on.... it's no small wonder why they don't think in terms of "good government." The word "good" doesn't really enter into their walnut-sized brains.

All that nice sounding stuff just doesn't inspire them the way a good old fashioned flogging does. Just look at Mel Gibson's atrocity of a film. It's all about the torture and having an audience lather itself up in the torture--as in, it's the ACT that matters, not the context or TRUTH about it. Oh, and the anti-Semitic stuff is very real too, to my mind. Others may disagree, but I was pretty shocked by those images. Hell, I was shocked by the whole schtick. It was like watching a big-budget Leni Riefenstahl version of the age old Passion Plays that always preceeded the torching of Jewish businesses within walking distance of those productions.

But that's just me.

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know, it's what we know for sure that just ain't so."  - Mark Twain


[ Parent ]
Literalism (4.00 / 1)
I think they really are literalists, but with a slightly different definition than one would normally use of the word.  Literalism is a core point in their philosophy about absolute truths and the perfect will of God.  They take that philosophy and apply it back at the Bible.  The Bible itself correspond with that philosophy, but no matter, the force it to fit.  The philosophy comes first, the book comes second.

In the end, they treat the Bible more like an Idol than teaching.  They do the same with the Constitution and basically everything else.  Conservatives do love their idols and heroes.

To be fair, liberals do the same thing, applying our philosophy to the Bible as well.  Our philosophy allows for there to be errors and authors with non-divine opinions, though, so it doesn't matter as much.


[ Parent ]
correction (0.00 / 0)
I've learn not to correct my typos, but some the word "not" kind of matters.  That should read:

"The Bible itself does not correspond with that philosophy..."


[ Parent ]
Right--It's About IDOLATRY (4.00 / 2)
That's why I like to bring up particular Bible passages from time to time--because they so clearly don't fit into the rightwing scheme of idolatry.

Heck, abortion is barely even present by implication in the Bible, and the balance is clearly in its favor as the killing of a fetus is not considered murder.  And yet condemnation of abortion is the backbone of religious conservatism?  It's a joke.

Or worse, actually. Since idolatry itself is a major sin.

The Bible may be silent about abortion.  But it's sure not silent about idolatry.  Golden Calf and all that stuff.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Abortion as religiously unimportant (0.00 / 0)
The anti-abortion effort is not, in my opinion, about advancing religion. It's one of those "beliefs" that a few religious leaders adopt and teach to their cult in order to separate them from the rest of society. It performs the same function as requiring the members of a cult to wear distinctive dress.

Such a teaching includes teaching that non-believers are to be rejected and fought. Among other things it makes it a much more momentous decision to decide to reject the teachings of the cult leader. That contributes to the group cohesiveness of the cult itself and increases the internal power of the cult leaders. Also, having new cult members evangelize such ideas is a standard brainwashing technique which causes them to become very strongly accepting of the teachings. That's the function of the two-year mission that Mormons send young people on. It makes them strong believers in what they are teaching during the mission. The difficulties of evangelizing a lot of these ideas firmly embeds those ideas in the missionaries.

As you point out, abortion is barely mentioned in the Bible. The same is true of homosexuality. Both have been used to build the political conservative movement in America over the last three decades. It creates a strong us vs them environment. The religious connection is more about identifying their target market than it is about actually creating better Christians.

And who are the leaders pushing these radical ideas and attempting to change America? Reading Kevin Phillips "Wealth and Democracy" I think the plutocrats who dominated America during the Glided Age and during the 20's are back. Phillips actually names many of the wealthy families involved.


[ Parent ]
I agree with you (0.00 / 0)
Sociologists point out that every religion sets up two categories in religion. They are the sacred and the profane. Profane items are not religious items. Sacred items are religious and are not to be questioned. Instead they are worshiped. What is declared to be sacred and what is profane depends on the whim of the particular religious group. The group then uses group sanctions to prevent anyone from questioning the sacredness or even the nature of the sacredness of the sacred items.

Christian fundamentalists have established the Bible as a sacred item and they worship it as their god. The Bible is the primary object of worship to them. It represents some fading ubergod that exists in the background, but the book - the totem in their hands - is the true object of worship. Of course, as a sacred object it cannot be questioned. Especially not by outsider historians applying the practices of historical analysis to the documents.

Since the Bible consists of a set of written-down myths, the myths are used to represent the religion. Not their metaphorical meanings, but the literal myths themselves. They, coming from the sacred Bible, are themselves sacred and beyond question or rational analysis.

Unquestioning acceptance of what they consider sacred it the touchstone the fundamentalists use to determine if you belong to their group or if you are an outsider and potentially their enemy.

It is a very primitive and irrational way of dealing with people, and is probably at least in part the behavioral basis of tribalism. I'd guess that their preference for the old testament comes from their recognition of the similarity in thinking to the way they think. The big advance that I see in the New Testament is that Christ is telling everyone to actually think about and apply the teachings to others around them instead of simply defending the tribe and its sacred objects from outsiders as sacred totems.  


[ Parent ]
Yes, I see. Literalism that isn't defined too literally. (0.00 / 0)
I see your point. We don't actually disagree, except on the definition of "literalism." They like that word, even though they don't know how to use it properly.

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know, it's what we know for sure that just ain't so."  - Mark Twain

[ Parent ]
I'd say that Fundamentalism is at it's core not about religion at all all (4.00 / 3)
but a kind of culture shock.

What happens is that the dominant religion of a culture has certain background noise to it's main message(s).  It's like the scratching of a LP on a  turntable.  Think of Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata as the religious content, the LP and turntable technology on which the music is heard as the cultural context and the scratching as the nose in the religion that isn't central to the religion but is constantly there.  

So in early 19th Century American Culture and the dominant Protestant faith system some of the noise was fixity of species and a young earth.

When the culture changes the religion adapts to the changes.  Thus we go from listening to the Sonata on an LP with scratching noise to listening to it on narrow tape in cassettes played on tape players.  There is still noise, it's now a quiet whirling sound, but to those of us accepting the new culture we don't hear the new noise, we just notice the absence of the old noise.

But when the culture changes too fast some folk can't handle the anxiety of change, they go into shock, and they become reactionary desiring to remain in the old culture which now to them seems to be a safe, understandable context.

But the truth is that they can't really go back.  They, just like all the rest of us, now notice the noise of the old system in a way those who only had that system didn't.  What Fundamentalists do, though, is confuse the noise with the music and identify it as an essential part of the music.  

So in the early 19th Century context the idea of fixity of species and a young earth were generally accepted but weren't seen as the center of Christian faith.  As the culture changed and these views became no longer part of the culture those who could accept that culture  were able to differentiate between the noise and the faith, but those who couldn't accept the change couldn't do it.

In a real sense then, Fundamentalism is a post-modernistic reaction to and rejection of modernism that is largely unconscious.  They can't really go back and live in a pre-modern way with the inability to distinguish between the noise and the context, but they can pretend they are doing so.  They are like Renaissance Fair aficionados except they try to live in their preferred anachronism all the time.

Educate, Agitate, Organize, Mobilize, Act!


[ Parent ]
Dear God (4.00 / 1)


"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know, it's what we know for sure that just ain't so."  - Mark Twain

Favorite (4.00 / 1)
That was always my favorite XTC song.  I didn't realize it had a video.  Thanks.

[ Parent ]
Most welcome. (0.00 / 0)
And since my blasphemous attempt at satire received precisely no response, at least this one did. ;^)

I'll just put up viddies instead of attempting something approximating humor.  

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know, it's what we know for sure that just ain't so."  - Mark Twain


[ Parent ]
A little something to help us laugh (4.00 / 2)
to keep from crying:

Worth watching to the end if you really want to get a big smile!


Kindermund tut Unsinn kund! (0.00 / 0)
NEVER try to do serious discussions with kids! This can only end in insanity. OMG.
:D

[ Parent ]




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