Glenn Greenwald's Ron Paul Problem--And Ours

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sat Nov 17, 2007 at 11:43


( - promoted by Chris Bowers)

On Novermber 6, Glenn Greenwald wrote a diary, "The Ron Paul phenomenon", occassioned by Paul's feat of raising 4.2 million in 24 hours online.

In his second paragraph, Glenn wrote:

Regardless of how much attention the media pays, the explosion of support for the Paul campaign yesterday is much more than a one-time event. The Paul campaign is now a bona fide phenomenon of real significance, and it is difficult to see this as anything other than a very positive development.

It is, in fact, quite easy to see the Paul campaign as quite negative in several respects.  For example: (1) It promotes rightwing conspiracy theories.  (2) It provides organizing opportunities for racist and nativist hate groups. (3) It promotes emotionally satisfying, but simplistic political analyses that short-circuit development of more mature critical analyses. (4) It's a form of tribalism that, per Jihad vs. McWorld: How Globalism and Tribalism Are Reshaping the World, works synergistically with the globalization it ostensibly opposses to undermine democratic republicanism, which is the one thing that can actually save us.  Taking just those four aspects into account, the end result is that Paul's candidacy must be judged a mixed bag, at best.  So far, however, Glenn has dug in his heels, refusing to address more than the surface of the objections raised about Paul. Although mistaken, in my view, Glenn's approach to Paul deserves serious reflection.  It has a consistency with his overall work, which is grounded in his earlier career as a constitutional lawyer.  He is thinking in terms of procedural fairness, and the attacks on Paul seem both unjust and fallacious-primarily in the way of guilt-by association.  This individidualist/case-oriented approach differs significantly from the group/social historical approach that informs David Neiwart and Sara Robinson's work at Orcinus, which I referenced.

Thus, when I commented:
:

Not only is Ron Paul a rightwing nut, as others have noted (the most conservative member of the House, by the DW-Nominate scale, compared to Tancredo who fell short by 7, 13 and 16 slots in the 108th, 109th and 110th Congresses, respectively), he's a longtime magnet for the white supremacist fringe, and the rest of the hard right.

Glenn responded:

Paul Rosenberg:

I'm really uncomfortable with judging someone by the support they attract. When The NY Sun wanted to discredit Walt/Measheimer, they did it by asking David Duke if he agreed with their book, and when he said that he did, they published a big article about it, implying that Duke's agreement must mean the argument is racist.

And, of course, a lot of the money that has been donated to Clinton and Obama -- A LOT -- is from the largest corporations that many of their supporters blame for most of the nation's ills. Should Clinton or Obama be responsible for the actions of their corporate donors?

Paul is out there arguing against worldwide organizations as well as clearly oppposing our unbending support for Israel. That is going to attract some anti-semites and other assorted crazies and haters, but that is most assuredly not the same as saying that Paul himself is anti-semitic or hateful.

Connecting a candidate to the views of some of his supporters without more smacks a little of guilt by association (not say you're doing that), and I doubt any candidate is really immune to that sort of thing.

The only problem is that I wrote a good deal more than that single paragraph.  I referenced some of the long-running commentary on Paul at Orcinus, among other things, and although Glenn has responded ("Ron Paul distortions and smears") to a more recent post by David at Orrinus ("Ron Paul's record in Congress"), he did so in an uncharacteristically superficial way, while ignoring another post altogether ("Ron Paul and his followers"), which went much more directly into the material that Greenwald was not examining, which details Paul's history of intentionally courting  "anti-semites and other assorted crazies and haters."

There are, as I see it, at least two major factors at work here.  One is a difference in fundamental operating orientation, the other is political orientation.  On the flip, I begin the process of critiquing Glenn's analysis of Paujl, and what it leaves out, by explaining what I mean about these two factors.

Paul Rosenberg :: Glenn Greenwald's Ron Paul Problem--And Ours
Operating Orientation and Political Orientation

In this section, I aim to elucidate what I see as significant aspects of Glenn's approach that contribute to him under-appreciating severely negative aspects of Ron Paul's candidacy.  The objections he raises are, I believe, misplaced, but they come from an orientation, and represent a set of concerns that are a valuable part of the critical intellectual mix on the internet.  There are, however, shortcomings to Glenn's approach-as there always are to any approach-which are also strengths in other ways, but not in this particular instance.

Glenn is primarily a highly knowledgeable play-by-play commentator coming out of his background as a constitutional lawyer, and a relatively apolitical centrism prior to the Bush Administration's systematic attacks on the Constitution following 9/11 (as recounted in his book, How Would a Patriot Act.)  From his perspective-expressed in that book.

As I wrote in my review of his book at My Left Wing:

As a Bush critic, the knee-jerk brigade has labeled Greenwald "a liberal"-a label he rejects.  In his preface, he explains:
    I never voted for George W. Bush-or for any of his political opponents. I believed that voting was not particularly important. Our country, it
    seemed to me, was essentially on the right track. Whether Democrats or Republicans held the White House or the majorities in Congress made only the most marginal difference. I held views on some matters that could be defined as conservative, views on others that seemed liberal. But I firmly believed that our democratic system of government was sufficiently insulated from any real abuse, by our Constitution and by the checks and balances afforded by having three separate but equal branches of government.

    My primary political belief was that both parties were plagued by extremists who were equally dangerous and destructive, but that as long as neither extreme acquired real political power, our system would function smoothly and more or less tolerably. For that reason, although I always paid attention to political debates, I was never sufficiently moved to become engaged in the electoral process.

In short, if Greenwald comes across as unyeilding in his criticism of Bush, it's not because he's a liberal-he's not.  It's because-despite his legal sophistication, he was politically naive, an innocent.  And his innocence has been lost.

In the book, Glenn devotes a great deal of attention to conservative crititicisms of the Bush Administration, particularly Antonin Scalia's dissent in  Hamdi.  This is central to his argument that the Bush Administration represents a radical departure from the historical mainstram of the American political tradition.  In my review, I quoted the following passage from Glenn's book:

Justice Antonin Scalia, who usually sides with the Bush administration and is a longtime advocate of broad presidential powers, objected that the court's decision did not go far enough in finding the president's conduct towards Hamdi unconstitutional. Justice Scalia wrote a long and impassioned opinion making clear that the United States was founded upon a rebellion against exactly the powers asserted by President Bush-the power to imprison citizens with no charges based solely on the decree of the ruler-and that there is no more basic American value than the prohibition on citizens being imprisoned by their government based on a secret, monarchlike decree.

Scalia explained that other than in times of national emergency, when the U.S. Constitution allows Congress to suspend the right to challenge one's imprisonment (something that has not occurred since the Nineteenth Century), no elected official has the right to unilaterally and secretly order the imprisonment of American citizens without charging them with a crime. Scalia added that no U.S. citizen can ever be held as an "enemy combatant," because a citizen who is truly fighting a war against America can be charged with treason and given all due process to defend himself. As Scalia put it: "The very core of liberty secured by our Anglo-Saxon system of separated powers has been freedom from indefinite imprisonment at the will of the Executive."

However, in my review, I also note what I regard as an element of naivite in Glenn's centrism:

His preface sketches out his evolution from patriotic presidential supporter immediately after 9/11 to the uncompromising critic he has become.  The doubts did not begin until May of 2002, when Jose Padilla, a U.S. citizen, was arrested on American soil and publicly labeled "the dirty bomber," as the Bush Adminsitration government claimed the right to hold him indefinitely without charge and without access to a lawyer.

  I never imagined that such a thing could happen in modern America-that a president would claim the right to order American citizens imprisoned with no charges and without the right to a trial. In China, the former Soviet Union, Iran, and countless other countries, the government can literally abduct its citizens and imprison them without a trial. But that cannot happen in the United States-at least it never could before.... I developed an intense interest in the Padilla case. It represented a direct challenge to my foundational political views-that we can tolerate all sorts of political disputes on a range of issues, but we cannot tolerate attacks by the government on our constitutional framework and guaranteed liberties.

The sharp bifrucation between "all sorts of political disputes on a range of issues" and "attacks by the government on our constitutional framework and guaranteed liberties" is typical of a sort of naive centrism such as Greenwald professes.  Many on the left would say that the struggle for constitutional guarantees is central to "all sorts of political disputes on a range of issues."  The fact that Greenwald accepts this sharp division so matter-of-factly reflects the sort of complacency, one might even say, that typifies political centrism in America.  That complacency is also evident in how long it took him to shift from being troubled, but still loyal, to being fully opposed.

The Search For "True Conservatives"

In February m 2006, Glenn asked, "Do Bush followers have a political ideology?", and went on to argue that Bush supporters are cultists who do not possess a political ideology, but instead use the terms "conservative" and "liberal" to identify members of the cult and those outside the cult, respectively;

It used to be the case that in order to be considered a "liberal" or someone "of the Left," one had to actually ascribe to liberal views on the important policy issues of the day - social spending, abortion, the death penalty, affirmative action, immigration, "judicial activism," hate speech laws, gay rights, utopian foreign policies, etc. etc. These days, to be a "liberal," such views are no longer necessary.

Now, in order to be considered a "liberal," only one thing is required - a failure to pledge blind loyalty to George W. Bush. The minute one criticizes him is the minute that one becomes a "liberal," regardless of the ground on which the criticism is based. And the more one criticizes him, by definition, the more "liberal" one is. Whether one is a "liberal" -- or, for that matter, a "conservative" -- is now no longer a function of one's actual political views, but is a function purely of one's personal loyalty to George Bush.

To sharpen his point, he went on to quote Andrew Sullivan:

OFF THE RESERVATION": Brent Bozell says I'm no "conservative." Label debates are silly. But I should say, for the record, that I favor the war in Iraq and Afghanistan, have been horrified by the incompetence of the occupation, but have been trying to make constructive arguments for how to win for quite a while now. Yes, I oppose the torture and abuse of military detainees. I'm a little stunned that this is now something that now requires one to be seen as a "liberal."

I support almost all of Bush's tax cuts (I support the estate tax) but also believe in balanced budgets and spending restraint (heretic!); I oppose affirmative action; I oppose hate crime laws; I respect John Kerry's military service; I believe all abortion is morally wrong and that Roe vs Wade was dreadful constitutional law (but I do favor legal first trimester abortions); I support states' rights, especially in social policy, such as marriage; I oppose the expansion of the welfare state, as in the Medicare prescription drug plan; I supported John Roberts' nomination and Sam Alito's; I believe in a firm separation of religion and politics, but I certainly take faith seriously and wrestle with my own. As regular readers know, I'm no fan of the far left. At some point, I have endorsed every single Republican president in my adult life.

All of that makes me a "liberal." Imagine what it now takes to be a "conservative" in Brent Bozell's eyes.

In response I wrote ("It's The Ideology, Smarty!"):

Glenn Greenwald wrote a dynamite post yesterday, "Do Bush followers have a political ideology?" His conclusion: No. They are cultists, nothing more.

I applaud everything about the post except for its conclusion.  You see, cultism is their ideology.  It's not an ideology as we commonly use or understand the term, but if we recall such doctrines as the Divine Right of Kings, or the Führerprinzip, we can see that it's not without historical parallels--frightening ones.

What's more, I went on to expand on that analysis and place it in a larger context in a series of posts, beginning with "Conservatism as identity politics-Some Introductory Remarks" in which I explained:

Thesis

Here's my thesis: Conservatism is a form (indeed the original form) of identity politics. It is expressed through multiple forms of political ideology based on justifying elite rule and the division of the human race into dualized classes (ideal and counter-ideal) in terms of some "natural" moral order.

Conservatism appears in various forms as the rationalizations and dualized classes shift over time, and in three distinct states of realization, reflecting different levels of development of the self. The overt rationalizations commonly mistaken for conservative ideology are, in fact, derivative phenomena-tertiary at best. The primary phenomena is the creation of a conservative identity, the subject of conservative political narratives. The secondary phenomena is the supporting ideology of superior and inferior groups, casting conservative identity as something to be preserved, promoted, and defended against the forces of evil, embodied in its demonized others. The primary and secondary phenomena are relatively constant over time, while the tertiary phenomena vary considerably.

NOTE: It's particularly important for this discussion to note that I am not questioning the sincerity of individual conservatives who may cling to the tertiary ideology of the day, month, year or decade.  I am merely arguing that such ideologies are tertiary from a social science/historical perspective, and that we should not be surprised when evidence turns up that makes little or no sense if we were to take the tertiary ideology as primary.  In fact, I have argued elsewhere on a number of occassions that there is a profound disonnect between what the majority of rank-and-file conservatives believe, and what movement conservatism stands for (destroying the welfare state, for example.) </NOTE>

In (apparently now lost) comments I made at this time at Glenn's blog, I referenced Phil Agre's essay (much-discussed at MyDD after the 2004 election), "What Is Conservatism and What Is Wrong with It?", which begins:

Liberals in the United States have been losing political debates to conservatives for a quarter century. In order to start winning again, liberals must answer two simple questions: what is conservatism, and what is wrong with it? As it happens, the answers to these questions are also simple:

Q: What is conservatism?

A: Conservatism is the domination of society by an aristocracy.

Q: What is wrong with conservatism?

A: Conservatism is incompatible with democracy, prosperity, and civilization in general. It is a destructive system of inequality and prejudice that is founded on deception and has no place in the modern world.

These ideas are not new. Indeed they were common sense until recently. Nowadays, though, most of the people who call themselves "conservatives" have little notion of what conservatism even is. They have been deceived by one of the great public relations campaigns of human history. Only by analyzing this deception will it become possible to revive democracy in the United States...

At the time, Glenn dismissed Agre as a partisan hack.  But within a year he had pretty much come around to my (if not explicitly Agre's) point of view.  At least two things that Glenn himself commented on seemed to have isgnificant in his change of view over this sime: First, when conservatives finally did start abandoning Bush, due to his tanking polls, they suddenly discovered that Bush was not really a conservative-and never had been. Second, Glenn was quite impressed with John Dean's book, Conservatives Without Conscience, which he reviewed here.

Ron Paul's Place In All This

Seen against this background, the Ron Paul candidacy represents a resurgence in the idea that Bushism is an aberration in American conservatism, and that there is a broad spectrum political tradition opposing him, including "true conservatives."  The problem with this position is not simply that "true conservatism" does not exist.  The problem is also that Ron Paul is nothing new, and simply represents a recurrent phenomena by which conservatism in crisis renews itself by drawing on its fringe and appropriating patriotic language. In Ron Paul's case, it is his claim to be a "constitutionalist," a favored defense used by his supporters to ward off any and all criticisms.  And, indeed, this is part of what Glenn finds so appealing about him:

Paul, of course, is not only in favor of immediate withdrawal from Iraq, but also emphatically opposes the crux of America's bipartisan foreign policy consensus. He reserves his greatest scorn for America's hegemonic rule of the world through superior military force, i.e., its acting as an empire in order to prop up its entangling alliances and enduring conflicts -- what George Washington lamented as "permanent, inveterate antipathies against particular nations, and passionate attachments for others."

And Paul is as vigilant a defender of America's constitutional freedoms -- and as faithful an observer of the constitutional limitations on government power designed to preserve those freedoms -- as any national political figure in some time. In one interview, Paul put it this way:

      As a matter of fact, if you look at every single problem we're facing today, it's because of the lack of respect for the rule of law and the Constitution.

What Glenn fails to appreciate is that Paul is simply articulating the standard conservative ideology of 1937/38.  Like them, he is an isolationist-so rabidly so that he would denounce FDR as a war-mongering tyrant for wanting to stop Hitler.  Also like them, he is utterly opposed to the welfare state, and idealizes 19th Century capitalism, staunchly refusing to acknowledge the reality of the Great Depression and its direct connection to his ideal.  He decries as teasonous, socialistic and unconstitutional FDRs Hurculean efforts to save both capitalism (a threat exemplified on the world stage by the Soviet Union) and democracy (a threat exemplified by Nazi Germany).

Paul is not a conservative in one of the most plausible senses of the word-supporting the organic nature of existing society against radical restructuring.  In this sense, Paul-every bit as much as Bush-is a stark raving anti-conservative.  He wants to go back to a pure conservative past that never was, and he calls this "constitutionalism." But Paul's vision is no more "constitutionalism" than televangelists' mamon-worship is "Christianity."  Like any textual fundamentalist, he simply reads his own beliefs into his sacred text, and then reads them back out again, denouncing as a heretic anyone who disagrees with him.  A dead give-away in this regard is his claim, cited above that "if you look at every single problem we're facing today, it's because of the lack of respect for the rule of law and the Constitution."  This is the exact same attitude that Christian fundamentalists take toward the Bible-a single solution for all the problems we face.

Perhaps the most fruitful way to situate Paul is within Benjamin Barber's framework in Jihad vs. McWorld. In that book, Barber argues that the mutually antagonistic forces of "free market" globalization and ethno-religious tribalism are actually mutually reinforcing, and that both together are deeply corrosive of what he calls "strong democracy"-also historically known as democratic republicanism (for example, the Democratic Party was originally known as the Democratic-Republican Party).  Barber's perspective is so important for understanding the Ron Paul phenomena that it requires a separate post-which will be my next installment.

Conclusion

For now, however, I want to conclude by clearly underscoring the point of this diary.  I believe that Glenn's perspective is an important one, although I believe it is mistaken.  One cannot take any politician at face value-irrespective of quetions of sincerity.  One must consider their statements in the larger context of their actions, and one must consider those actions in the larger historical context in which they were taken.  While Glenn is correct to warn against invalid forms of reflexively rejecting what any politician has to say-including Ron Paul-he has failed to recognize the difference between an invalid guilt-by-association argument and a valid identification of a decades-long pattern of deliberately courting extremist supporters.  Glenn is not a sloppy thinker, so the most logical explanation for why he has ignored this difference is that he has long been pre-occupied with dissecting patterns of political behavior that run at right angles to it, so to speak.  His work in doing so has been extreme valuable, but in this instance it needs to be supplmented with a broader cultural/historical analysis, which David and Sara from Orcinus provide a good deal of.  And that is what I have tried to  begin elucidating in this post. My next post, utilizing Barber's analysis, will continue this process.


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Paul's rhetoric doesn't entice (0.00 / 0)
me.  I am worried about his record of courting Illuminati conspiracy theorists as well as his hatred of abortion rights and social security.  However, I also am scared of histories courting of corporate America and the military industrial complex and the fact that she has taken money from them. 

Personally I don't think Paul has enough philosophical cohorts to win the nomination, but he does have enough to divide the republicans if he runs third party.  Hillary definitely has enough naive voters to win, and if she does Paul's third party candidacy could enable those of us to her left to vote for a third party progressive with a clear conscience.

My blog  


Progressive??? (4.00 / 1)
Paul's third party candidacy could enable those of us to her left to vote for a third party progressive with a clear conscience.

How does the most conservative member of the House of Representatives (DW-Nominate scores, compared to Tancredo who fell short by 7, 13 and 16 slots in the 108th, 109th and 110th Congresses, respectively) qualify as a progressive?

His anti-immigrant stance?  His anti-abortion stance? His anti-Social Security stance?  His anti-environmental stance? His "states-rights" stance?

What, exactly?

I'm no fan of Clinon, but she's at least modestly okay on all the above. Paul is incredibly bad.

Plus--details, details--his extremist anti-government ideology would give far more power to the corporations than anything Clinton ever dreamed of.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
He doesn't qualify as a progressive (4.00 / 1)
but someone like Kucinich or Feingold would.  I four party race removes the spoiler effect.  Understand now?  I am advocating that if Paul runs third party, that a progressive should also take a shot.


My blog  

[ Parent ]
So We Should Be Foolish, Too? (4.00 / 1)
Our political system is a de facto two party system. What you're suggesting is the best possible way to elect a Republican in 2008.

If Ron Paul splits the GOP vote--thus helping to elect a Democrat--then, yes, that's a good thing.  Not Ron Paul, but the split.  If we split the Democratic vote--thus helping to elect a Repuiblican--then that's a bad thing.

Remember Florida, 2000?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I think her support for the war proves that (0.00 / 0)
a democrat would have gotten us into Iraq as well.  Gore probably couldn't have won without agreeing to accept her neocon advisers.  I really hate both parties sincerly, and I don't think she gets us anywear.  She will probably cause the congress to swing back toward the Gingrichists and the republicans, because the left will be so demoralized by her.

My blog  

[ Parent ]
This Is A HUGE Leap (4.00 / 3)
Invading Iraq was, quite literally, insane. The Democrats were definitely deeply implicated for their failure to effectively resist.  But there's a huge difference between being stampeded into something and leading the charge.

When making a claim such as this, you need substantial evidence framed in a convincing argument to make a credible case.  I've seen neither with respect to Clinton invading Iraq.

I am no Clinton fan, but I'm happy to make all my arguments on the basis of established facts.  Speculation simply isn't needed.

She will probably cause the congress to swing back toward the Gingrichists and the republicans, because the left will be so demoralized by her.

You've obviously been ignoring the polls for some time now.  I sympathize with your gut instincts, but there's simply no support for this.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Fact (4.00 / 1)
The DLC can't justify triangulation without a strong gop.  It is in their interest to confirm their talking points and they often do.  Fact, the dlc is very proud of their close relationship with the neocons and they feature them highly on their website.  David Brooks is a good example.  Fact, the polling data for this election is not applicaple to her first midterms. Fact, I don't need exact data to justify why I vote the way I do.  People like her have repeatedly lost my trust on the Iraq War on Impeachment, the betrayal of moveon and an organizations created to defend them, on so many things.  I'll ditch them at the first opportunity.  The Clinton's and their supporters have shown no loyalty to progressives and they don't deserve any from us.

My blog  

[ Parent ]
justification (0.00 / 0)
You don't need data to justify your vote to yourself perhaps, but if you want to convince anyone else that Ron Paul is a reasonable 3rd party choice in the event of a Clinton nomination or that Clinton/Gore would have invaded Iraq, it sure helps.

[ Parent ]
A New Great Depression Narrative (0.00 / 0)
As far as Ron Paul and his supporters are concerned the Great Depression was caused by the government. During the 1920's the Federal Reserve kept interest rates artificially low spurring a burst of malinvestment. When the bubble collapsed the government doubled tariffs and blocked the flow of foreign currency into the country. This isolated American markets and prevented the ordinary influx of foreign capital that flows like water to localized crisis points. The result was an ordinary recession that became a Depression.

The economic solutions of the New Deal have actually taken us backwards from the 1930's. The currency has been gutted and as we see now, the government is starting to make gold a controlled substance. The fact that the government used the full extent of its police power to suppress the Liberty Dollar shows it is not a conspiracy, it is an open practice.

In addition, the regulatory state was completely unnecessary to economic recovery. From a purely economic point of view regulation only serves to increase barriers to market entry and to establish price floors. A few simple calculations would have you realizing that regulation creates two things, monopoly and shortage. Monopoly from the barriers to entry and shortage from the disincentive to producers.

What we are starting is nothing short of a new narrative of the Great Depression. We don't buy the nonsense that the unfettered market collapsed so permanently that the state had to sweep in on angel's wings and save capitalism from itself. Capitalism was just fine, it was the government that dropped the ball.


Old Whine In New Barrels From A Ron Paul-Bot (4.00 / 3)
Note: Worth noting that this is the first post at Open Left from mklein.

What we are starting is nothing short of a new narrative of the Great Depression.

If you consider 1937 "new," perhaps.  This is really just a pure throwback.  Conservative congresscriters then were spouting the same nonsense that conservative congresscriter Ron Paul is spouting today.

The simple truth is that Sweden recovered fastest from the Depression, and it did so via the most aggressive welfare state program in the world.  Germany recovered second fastest, and it did so via the opposite route--by military spending (although Gemrany already had a more developed welfare state than the US, dating back to the 1880s).  When Roosevelt tried to cut back on welfare state spending, still under the sway of "balanced budget" ideology, the result was the recession of 1937/38.

As per usual, the conservative fantasy runs 180 degrees counter to the historical facts.

The economic solutions of the New Deal have actually taken us backwards from the 1930's.

We only created the largest middle class the world had ever seen.  If that's "backwards" then once again we see you are headed 180 degrees in the opposite direction from reality.

The currency has been gutted...

Hmmm, I'm concerned with the size of the middle class, and you're concerned with "the currency."  Isn't that the classic definition of the difference between Democrats and Republicns?  "When Democrats get together to talk, it eventually all comes down to people. When Republicans get together to talk, it eventually all comes down to money."  From this POV, it hardly even matters that you're totally wrong.  It's what you're obsessed with that tells us everything we need to know about you.

...and as we see now, the government is starting to make gold a controlled substance. The fact that the government used the full extent of its police power to suppress the Liberty Dollar shows it is not a conspiracy, it is an open practice.

What this rightwing nutcase is talking about is a recently-busted illegal private money scheme.  This was clearly frowned on by our socialist Founding Fathers, who not only gave this power to Congress in Article I, Section 8, but also denied it to the states in  Articel I, Section 10.  So much for the Paulista's "constitutionalist" claims.

Dave Neiwert writes about this at Orcinus.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
An Old Great Depression Narrative (4.00 / 2)
I can't tell if you are describing Ron Paul's position or your own. Regardless, it is not a new narrative. It's been around since the Great Depression.

We might as well summarize this narrative like this: "Because of government meddling, not enough people who deserved to starve were allowed to starve. Why oh why does the government keep stepping in and helping losers?"

Barry


[ Parent ]
Some of his supporters are (4.00 / 1)
way out there.  Survivalists, racists, quite a collection.  As Steve Benen says, there's no one quite like that supporting any of the Dem candidates.

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.

[ Parent ]
You Know, Mimi (0.00 / 0)
I find it almost impossible to resist giving you a "4" every time I see your White Rose sig line.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
My own framework (0.00 / 0)
Paul, I have no quarrel with what you say in your fight with Greenwald over Paul.  The question I have (and I use the word "question" literally, not as veiled opposition) is why you choose to fry this particular fish, given all the other fish out there.

There is this slogan that Perot's Reform Party was fond of, it's not about left and right, it's about top and bottom.  That slogan can be used dishonestly to obscure left/right issues, but it is not wholly without merit.

In other words, I feel some kindred with Paul, DESPITE the matters you illuminate, to the extent that he is a rebel.  To quote EnglishLefty in his response to Bowers on who's on which team:

Whereas tactical allies are just those who happen to have certain objectives in common with you. Working together here is helpful, but that doesn't preclude opposition in other respects. Tactical allies can even be strategic enemies - an example is the right and left blogospheres working together on government openness issues.

On the other hand, when there is the possibility of tactical alliances with questionable forces, one could argue that it is especially critical that such alliances not be entered into blindly, lest one walk unawares into a left/right bloodbath further down the line.

Elaine Supkis, by the way, is very interesting on the FBI raid to confiscate "Ron Paul Dollars"  (http://elainemeinels...).  She is a bit shrill (heavens!) but outside the box.

Full Court Press!  http://www.openleft.com/showDi...


A Tactical Alliance With The Ebola Virus??? (0.00 / 0)
I fry the fish in front of me. I have a lot to say. Stay tuned.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Did Ron Paul kill your brother? (0.00 / 0)
FDR/Churchill/Stalin vs. Hitler.

Full Court Press!  http://www.openleft.com/showDi...

[ Parent ]
I Chose My Metaphors Carefully (4.00 / 1)
There's a world of difference between tactical alliances with foreign powers and domestic ones.  The really pernicious ones at home have a nasty habit of metastisizing, for the simple reason that they're already under the national skin.

This doesn't mean I'd never make tactical alliances in domestic politics.  But it does mean that I don't make them with folks like Paul who I'd treat rather differently if he were the ruler of Nepal or something.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Tactical alliances are not all the same (0.00 / 0)
You oppose the war in Iraq.  Ron Paul opposes the war in Iraq.  There is a tenuous tactical alliance there.  He gives voice to the non-theocratic, keep the government out of my bedroom, anti-big brother, libertarian current.  So do you.  Etc., etc., etc.

You may want to split hairs and call it a tactical relationship rather than alliance, if you wish.  It's a free country.  Sort of.  I'm certainly not suggesting joint press conferences, strategy sessions, or anything like that.

But let's face it, Paul's supporters are not a monolith.  Otherwise you wouldn't be wasting your time on this.  Many of them are what you might call dupes, to give you the benefit of the doubt.  Enlighten them, please.  Good division of labor.

But my concern is how to move some of those dupes in a progressive direction.  I think your full frontal assault doesn't contribute to that.  This goes to our fundamental difference.  You are a Democrat first, and a progressive second.  I am a progressive first.  This is an important debate to have, and that's the fish in front of me.

Full Court Press!  http://www.openleft.com/showDi...


[ Parent ]
You're Mistaken About Me (4.00 / 2)
You are a Democrat first, and a progressive second.  I am a progressive first.

That's not true.  I am a Democrat because I am a progressive, and it is the Democratic Party is the only place that makes sense for progressives to be in the party structure that our system of laws currently allows.  (There have been a series of really bad Supreme Court rulings that have shut down promising spaces, such as the New Party strategy that Joel Rodgers and others were promoting in the 1990s.)  But I devote far more energy to issue activism than I do to party activism.

It's not a difference in how we prioritize.  It's a difference in how we analyze what the political possibilities are.

I think it's transparently obvious that if Democrats generally--and progressive in particular--were as disciplined as Republicans generally--and conservatives in particular--we would win elections as regularly as clockwork.  So, rather than contributing to the problem of fragmentation, I want to counter it.  It's a simple, straight-forward strategic decision, which is entirely independent of the prioritization argument, which I see as a mere red herring.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Paul, your comment is helpful (0.00 / 0)
I'm replying to myself only to keep this from getting too skinny.

We have different burdens of proof, and I'll concede that mine is the more difficult.  The viability of independent politics, the possibility of creating a coherent independent electoral force without the crutch of a third party splintering NOT ONLY the Democratic Party but the progressive forces, requires thinking in new ways, developing new organizational forms.  It's easy to knock me down with the tyranny of the already-established.

But your burden of proof is no piece of cake.  You state:

I think it's transparently obvious that if Democrats generally--and progressive in particular--were as disciplined as Republicans generally--and conservatives in particular--we would win elections as regularly as clockwork.

If wish was fishes.  I of course assume that this discipline is not to be accomplished by the total capitulation of the left, that our candidates would not have to be a legion of Liebermans to get elected.

But what makes you think that this unity can be achieved?  One reason the Republicans are so disciplined is that they are headed by a corporate elite AND the rank-and-file of the party willingly supports that agenda.  The Democratic Party is splintered because there is a naked conflict of class interests that cannot be resolved.  That progressives can establish a significant beachhead is proven.  But can we get beyond that beachhead and overcome the massive fortifications that lie just over the horizon?  The practice of the last 30 years tells me no.  Doesn't mean we shouldn't try hard.  (Bruce Willis for prez?)  Prove it, really prove it, not assert, and I'm with you in a second.  But so far, it's only asserted.

Look, we could both be attempting the impossible from different angles.  It may be that staving off fascism is the best we can hope for.  But there are massive currents moving across the globe, economic, political and military, and I think the shit is going to hit the fan.  Tomorrow?  Probably not.  Within our lifetimes?  I wouldn't bet against it.  And when it does, current conventional wisdom is going to look like feudal foolishness.

With either approach, we have to do so in such a non-sectarian manner that we can respond without being simply swept away.

Full Court Press!  http://www.openleft.com/showDi...


[ Parent ]
Way Off Topic Now, But... (0.00 / 0)
Okay, you've gone and asked for a response that would have to be a diary in itself, at least, which now moves this clearly into the "off-topic" realm, as far as I'm concerned.  But my short answer is that (a) times always change (who saw the New Deal coming in 1928?), (b) things are particularly auspicious now, because the power of Southern conservatives in the party has never been more marginal, (c) the Internet has brought us a plethora of new decentralist organizing possibilities, many of which have yet to be realized yet, and (d) whatever barriers there are within the Democratic Party, the barriers outside the party are at least an order of magnitude more.

For a long answer, see William Domhoff's Changing the Powers That Be: How the Left Can Stop Losing and Win.  No one has studied the American ruling class structure as meticulously as Domhoff has, since his 1968 classic, Who Rules America?, so he's definitely very much worth taking seriously.  The one argument he makes that I can't agree with is that progressives err in blaming the media.  He does have a minor point--that we can do better if we don't just reflexively attack the media.  This is particularly true of local media.  But the real message should be that we need to build our own media, just like the conservatives have done.  Other than that, however, I think he makes very persuasive arguments.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Wasn't looking for a long response right now ... (0.00 / 0)
... was just trying to clarify the questions.

But take out (d) and a, b and c are far from conclusive.  To be continued elsewhere.

Full Court Press!  http://www.openleft.com/showDi...


[ Parent ]
And Domhoff's example of taking over the Democratic Party is Corzine? (0.00 / 0)


Full Court Press!  http://www.openleft.com/showDi...

[ Parent ]
New Jersey Politics Is Quite Corrupt (0.00 / 0)
And Corzine is a bitter opponent of the corrupt machine politicians in Jersey.  He is definitely on our side.

Domhoff isn't arguing that Corzine is the Messiah.  Just that he, like FDR and the Kennedys before him, is an example of the sort of cross-class allies that we, as egalitarian progressives, should gladly welcome and ally ourselves with.

This ain't rocket science.  It's common sense.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Well, Then You Should Appreciate This Analogy (0.00 / 0)
Corzine is pretty much your Phil Angelides.  But he got elected, and Angelides got stabbed in the back by the California Democratic establishment.  Neither man is the Second Coming.  But California would be a hell of a lot better off with Angelides than we are today.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
As the crazy drunk said after his mother was insulted ... (0.00 / 0)
[ Parent ]
Ron Paul is not a problem (4.00 / 1)
Short-term: Either his candidacy will burn out and he'll go away, or he will run as an alternative party candidate and help to split the right wing vote.  Good for Democrats, no?  Regardless, its good news to me because it shows BOTH parties are cracked - unlike the last 8 years, where only 1 party was broken.

Long-term: The views that Paul (Ron Paul, that is) either expresses, or tacitly supports, not matter how vile Rosenberg may be able to convince us that they are, will not disappear from our nation if Ron Paul's candidacy fails.  Indeed, I believe that such views - the racism, etc. - are better brought out into the sunlight (?) of a public campaign, than stuffed back into the dark cellar of political exclusion.  If Ron Paul is truly everything that Rosenberg claims - what better mechanism to expose such than a Presidential campaign?
Such exposure would, in the long-run, benefit our nation because it would help to alleviate the kind naivette that Mr. Greenwald has displayed.  In other words, let the Paul candidacy be a test case, so that the next time someone like this seeks to cover-up their true intentions with "conservative" code words - we'll see them for what they are.

I see his candidacy as an opportunity, rather than as a problem.  An opportunity to split the right wing - which is rather fractious already, and an opportunity to seriously and publically discredit the more vile views that he may express.


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


Pure Cluelessness (0.00 / 0)
This comment betrays an utter cluelessness about long-term political processes, such as the rightwing building of institutional power over time.  The hard right Stormfront crowd is totally dedicated to Paul's candidacy--and not because they think he's going to be President, but because they see it as an enormous organizing opportunity--which it is, for them.

Why in the world would we want to help promote an organizing opportunity for the racist and nativist right?

The notion that it will expose these people, and thus turn our country against them is beyond ludicrous.  It's worthy of Chris Matthews & Co.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Blah, Blah, Blah (4.00 / 1)
All name-calling, no substance - no proof - no faith in the ability of your own political group (Democrat, Progressive, Liberal, what ever you want to call it) to compete with those you so rightly characterize as "nuts".

Why are you so frightened of Ron Paul and the right-wing minions you claim are championing him?  If they are as hollow as you paint them - why not face them in an election?

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
"Blah, Blah, Blah!" Yourself! (0.00 / 0)
If my arguments are so vapid, why not answer them?

Electoral politics is not the only game in town.  Long-term power-building is vitally important, and your total refusal to deal with my arguments betrays a complete lack of responsibility--much less common sense--on your part.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Not a comment on your arguments - (0.00 / 0)
I was responding to your dismissal of my post.

You have no evidence that a statement such as, "The notion that it will expose these people, and thus turn our country against them is beyond ludicrous." is true. 

Indeed, if exposing Paul's true nature will not turn your fellow citizens against him and his supporters - why bother exposing him? If this statement of yours is true - then you've pretty much been wasting your time clarifying what Paul stands for, haven't you?

As for your arguments - I think they are accurate.  What I don't understand is why - it appears - that you would rather exclude Ron Paul from the political process, than let him in and beat the living hell out of him.  The best answer I can glean from your expansive posting is that you fear the cabal of nativists and racists that might support his candidacy. 

Don't confuse my acceptance of his candidacy as support for him.  I accept all the Republicans (and those pretending to be Republicans) in the race - but I doubt I'd ever vote for one.


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Why Weren't You Clearer At The Beginning? (0.00 / 0)
I must say that I find it incredibly hard to read your mind.  My Kresgin circuits must be on the fritz.  So it would really help if you actually spelled out what you are trying to say the first time you comment, rather then the third or fourth.

That said, I still have the same basic problem with your arguments.  They are based on thinking of the political process in terms of massive blocks of monolithically-inclined people.  You may not be aware of this, but as you communicate this is what comes across loud and clear.  And it makes absolutely no sense to me.  This is simply not the way politics works.  It's the same sort of cartoon version of things that the Versailles crowd constantly talks about that has no relationship to reality at all.

You also just make shit up about me, out of thin air, which is directly contrary to fact.  For example:

What I don't understand is why - it appears - that you would rather exclude Ron Paul from the political process, than let him in and beat the living hell out of him.

Where, exactly, did you get this idea?  My purpose is to inform and explicate.  I don't want people in the progressive blogosphere to be taken in, and I want to raise the level of consciousness about how various factors interact with one another.

In fact, I never said anything about excluding Ron Paul from the political process (he was first elected to Congress in the 1970s, so it's a bit late for that, don't you think?) and I am in fact doing my best to beat the living hell out of him.

So where do you get your drugs, anyway?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I get my coffee at Nokomis (0.00 / 0)
Coffee Shop.  That's the only drug I need.

Clarity comes from the discussion - the interaction - not from  an individual post, necessarily. 

You are right - I was assuming that you had some desire to exclude Paul from the Presidential race, but I was struggling to understand why you insist that his candidcacy is a "problem". 

Indeed, the more your posted, the less problematic his candidacy appeared.  You were exploiting the very opportunity that I (and a few other posters) were pointing to - using a second-tier republican presidential candidate to expose the hidden language and symbolism that the radical libertarian wing uses to communicate their stealth positions.

I think that if Ron Paul were the GOP nominee, it would mean more division and damage for the Republican party - in the long term.  I base this on the effect that the Bush/Cheney reign has had on the GOP.  Bush/Cheney exploited the religious right - OK, mostly Bush and Rove - by using the accepted code words and symbols during the 2000 and 2004 campaigns (plus some ballot initiative help from their friends) to convey to the fundamentalists that one of them was in charge - GWB.  Yet, as you have so profusely pointed out - the Bush image has no basis in reality.  He is no more a Christian Fundamentalist, than he is a true conservative.  This duplicity has not been lost on the religious right and the result is a weakened GOP.  I see the Paul candidacy as proving a similar wedge - this time between the nativist-types and the more moderate Republicans.  Were Paul to get the nomination - he would continue to woo his base with code words and symbols (as you have exposed).  At this point, one of two scenarios will play out: 1) Paul is a pseudo-nativist and was only trying to exploit this group (ala Bush/Rove and the Fundies), or 2) Paul actually IS a racist and rabid anti-democratic nut-job.  Either way, organized or not, I can't see how these help to futher the long-term interests of the GOP.  Why?  Because either leaves one, or another, faction of his consituency knowing that they were used.  Result: another crack in the Republican Party.  A crack that someone, like yourself, might just be able to leverage into a chasm. Why leverage that crack?  Because SOME of Paul's supporters are NOT nativists, or racists - they don't understand the coded language and they see him as a "progressive" (not that he IS a progressive, but that they THINK he is).  Now, the work of the true progressive candidates begins, as they try to gain the support of this demographic.

Again - an opportunity, rather than a problem.



"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
I Am Responding Directly To A Couple Of Posts By Glenn Greenwald (0.00 / 0)
The whole context for this discussion is precisely the deluded perception by many who are opposed to the war, and the broader neocon agenda (torture, illegal wiretapping, etc.) that Ron Paul is someone to be supported because he, too, opposses these things.

I don't doubt that Paul's candidacy can expose fissures in the GOP base, although the GOP has already proven itself quite adept at overcoming such fissures (Nader hurt Gore a hell of a lot more than Buchanan hust Bush in 2000, remember?)

But even if his candidacy proves substantially more damaging than anything in the past, that still doesn't negate the fact that progressives falling for him is a very real problem right now.  And Glenn's posts prove it.

I see the Paul candidacy as proving a similar wedge - this time between the nativist-types and the more moderate Republicans.

Yes, because the more moderate Republicans have repeatedly fled the GOP when extremist elements have surged to the fore.

Oh, wait...

[Wasn't that the line on Ronald Reagan back in 1979/80?]

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
You misunderstood (0.00 / 0)
"Yes, because the more moderate Republicans have repeatedly fled the GOP when extremist elements have surged to the fore."

I meant  - discredit the extremists - either because they misrepresent themselves to the moderates, then are revealed as liars, or because they take the party in the wrong direction and exacerbate the intra-party divisions.  Much like Bush/Cheney and the "neo-con" extremists have discredited themselves - using the religious right, paying lip-service to the fiscal "conservatives", and making such a fucking mess of Afghanistan, Iraq, and international relations in general.

This won't make the moderate Repubs flee the party - it may make them shun the extremists and blame them for the broken GOP "brand".  (Just like Democrats blame Nader for Gore's loss) A long-shot?  Sure - mostly because Ron Paul is not likely to get the GOP nomination.



"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Paul Is A Crackpot But... (0.00 / 0)
Ron Paul does have a childish point of view, but I'll tell you what. If the general election somehow ends up being Clinton vs. Paul, I'd vote for Paul with a smile on my face. He'd end the war, stop torture, close Gitmo, wouldn't censor media, and won't invade Iran. That's more than I could say for Hillary Clinton.

Enjoy Your Ride Back To The 19th Century (0.00 / 0)
Just don't drink the water!

(Or breathe the air!)

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Lesser Of Two Evils (0.00 / 0)
I'd rather live in the 19th century than in the middle of a nuclear war.

[ Parent ]
Paranoia IS Ron Paul's Platform! (0.00 / 0)
Thank you for making my point.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Look At Her Record (0.00 / 0)
I'm just basing this opinion on Hillary's record. She was for the war in Iraq, she's ready to start another war in Iran, and she has no problem being unfriendly with Pakistan.

I hardly love Ron Paul, but honestly, he's more sane on foreign policy than Hillary.


[ Parent ]
Chosing Cancer Over Polio Doesn't Make You Sane (4.00 / 1)
What the heck, rational argument doesn't seem to make much of a dent.  Why not another song lyric?
    Let's drink to the hard working people
    Let's drink to the lowly of birth
    Raise your glass to the good and the evil
    Let's drink to the salt of the earth

    Say a prayer for the common foot soldier
    Spare a thought for his back breaking work
    Say a prayer for his wife and his children
    Who burn the fires and who still till the earth

    And when I search a faceless crowd
    A swirling mass of gray and black and white
    They dont look real to me
    In fact, they look so strange

    Raise your glass to the hard working people
    Lets drink to the uncounted heads
    Lets think of the wavering millions
    Who need leaders but get gamblers instead

    Spare a thought for the stay-at-home voter
    His empty eyes gaze at strange beauty shows
    And a parade of the gray suited grafters
    A choice of cancer or polio

    And when I look in the faceless crowd
    A swirling mass of grays and black and white
    They dont look real to me
    Or dont they look so strange

    Let's drink to the hard working people
    Let's think of the lowly of birth
    Spare a thought for the rag taggy people
    Let's drink to the salt of the earth

    Let's drink to the hard working people
    Let's drink to the salt of the earth
    Let's drink to the two thousand million
    Let's think of the humble of birth



"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Kudos (0.00 / 0)
This song lyric thing is a clever way to bring a thread between two like-hearted but disagreeing people to an satisfying close. You're better than Barbara Walters on The View with an artful outro.

[ Parent ]
Hmmmmmm. (0.00 / 0)
That's food for thought.  I hadn't thought of it that way.

[ Parent ]
Except, Of Course (4.00 / 1)
Who ever said that Ron Paul was opposed to using nuclear weapons?

That's the big difference between leftists opposed to war on humanitarian grounds, and rightwing nativists opposed to war on international banking conspiracy gounds.

In fact, Ron Paul has twice introduced bills to block the dismantling of ICBM silos in the U.S.:

  H.R.1665: To prohibit the destruction during fiscal year 2002 of intercontinental ballistic missile silos in the United States.

  H.R.3769: To prohibit the destruction during fiscal year 2001 of intercontinental ballistic missile silos in the United States.

Why keep them around unless you might want to use them?

(He also has a hankering for the Panama Canal.  So much for his anti-imperialism.)

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Exposing GOP "moderates" (0.00 / 0)
Using the Progressive Punch scores (unfortunately I was unable to get inside the site earlier this morning), Ron Paul has been ranking as the third most "progressive" Republican.  He's correct about 24% of the time.  What is amazing is that was placing him third among House Republicans behind Chris Shays and Rodney Alexander (a Democratic turncoat whose score is artificially bumped up by his time as a Democrat).  In real terms, he's behind Spector, Snowe, and Collins in the Senate and Shays in the House.  When it comes to a Republican, Ron Paul is about as good as it gets.

And that is pretty bad.  A number of the more reasonable types have either left under pressure (Boehlert and Roukema from around here) or lost elections (Chaffee, Leach).  Those in my state (5 of the 6 House Republicans from NJ) who claim to be moderate Republicans all score reasonably well (15% to the low 20s) but are even more crazy than Ron Paul.  In fact, we even have one troglodyte who scores 4% and has an increasingly hard time being elected from a 60% Republican district (Scott Garrett).

Ron Paul, IMO, does not represent the worst of the Republican Party.  George W. Bush with his hidden corporate racism, corruption, lies, and subsidies to the uber rich is infinitely worse.  Of course the large batshit crazy element in Ron Paul will be useful to illiminate both the danger of a "real" conservative and the authoritarian nature of most Republicans. 

As for a fourth party type thing, don't go there.  We have gone that route with Nader and it brought us at least seven years of GWB.  Sucks big time. Right off hand, the only four party race in the last century was 1948 when Truman fought off Dewey, the Dixiecrats (straight out racism with no philosophical icing) and the Henry Wallace Progressives.  All the Progressives managed to do was to deliver NY State to Dewey.  They lost ground for the left. 

I saw the Ron Paul type stuff thirty five or forty years ago (a relative sent a subscription).  Every once in a while it hit the nail on the head but most of it was bizzarre.  It some how seems less bizzarre compared to the neocons and Fox News, just an antique curiousity of hot house nuts.  Ron Paul is less dangerous than Rupert Murdoch (or should it be Roger Ailes).  At least he does not believe that Saddam Hussein was involved in 9/11 like many of the Fox viewers (on the other hand they are well informed about the latest doings of Britttany Spears and Paris Hilton).


Unfortunately (0.00 / 0)
Progressive Punch is down again, as it was the first couple of times I tried to check on Paul over the past month or so.  So I can't offer any deep insight into his reported score.  But I can say that it strikes me as either a flaw, an anomaly or both.  The notion that Paul is somehow a "moderate" Republican is simply ludicrous by any definition of the term.

DW-Nominate works by sorting all roll call votes with more than 0.5% on the losing side. It creates an ordering from one extreme to the other, and Ron Paul has consistently ended up on the conservative extreme.  This does not count committee votes and it does count proceedural votes--which are sometimes almost pure noise, and other times more important than anything else.  So it's not an ideal measure, but it is very good for telling you how to expect folks to vote.

Finally, the fact that Paul is not one kind of crazy says nothing about him not being another.  And my whole point here is to try and be more sophisticated than that.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Metrics Paul (0.00 / 0)
It's all a question of how you look at sorting votes.

National Journal labels him as one of the most liberal Republicans because they focus on some of the big news votes related to Iraq.


[ Parent ]
National Journal Is Subjective, DW-Nominate Is Not (0.00 / 0)
There's nothing wrong with being subjective, of course. But the fact remains that DW-Nominate involves no subjective judgments.  All role call votes with 0.5% or more in the minority are counted, and all are counted equally. No standard is employed.  The question is simply, "who votes yes? and who votes no?"  As a result, there is no subjective factor in the DW-Nominate scale.

There is another problem, however. When he votes against the war, Paul is simply voting as pre-WWII isolationist Republican.  Counting such votes are "liberal" is thus not just subjective, but objectively wrong.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Who's Subjective Now? (0.00 / 0)
"When he votes against the war, Paul is simply voting as pre-WWII isolationist Republican.  Counting such votes are "liberal" is thus not just subjective, but objectively wrong."

It seems to me that if you take this approach, you need a metric that not only looks at HOW a congressman votes, but why as well.  DW Nominate doesn't do this either.


[ Parent ]
You, That's Who! (0.00 / 0)
Your inability to follow distinct lines of argument and keep them separate is indicative of your overall confusion.

Tell me.  How do you manage to tie your shoes?  Or do you just use velcro?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
It's a bit shortsighted to blame the 2000 election on Nader (0.00 / 0)
Kathleen Harris had about a thousand times more effect on the election results than Nader.  Yet, I hear 10x more complaining about Nader.

[ Parent ]
Multiple Causality Is The Rule (0.00 / 0)
Murder on the Orient Express, don'tcha know!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Yes (0.00 / 0)
and I agree that the Nader candidacy, particularly with it's blurring strategy (that gore was all too willing to embrace) certainly did something to elect Bush.

But focusing so intently on Nader seems to me to be like blaming Kennedy's death on the doctors that were only able to keep him alive for a few hours, while glossing over the huge bullet wound.  If we just had better doctors, then JFK would have lived!  That pesky 1% of the vote that Nader drew off!


[ Parent ]
... But (4.00 / 2)
it sounds like you are just doing the mirror image thing.

There's no reason to minimize anyone's role is that tragic absurdity--not the thieving GOP, not the spineless, clueless Democrats, not the feckless Ralph Nader, not the mendacious mainstream media, not the criminal Supreme Court, not anyone.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Fair enough (0.00 / 0)
But I would argue that the effect that Nader had was more marginal than the other things--the Socialist Workers Party covered the margin between Bush and Gore in Florida, and any number of things can account for the margin, yet the only lesson that Democrats seem to have learned from that election is that another Nader must be stopped at all costs.

At the time, Bush was running as an anti-Clinton of sorts.  Every tiem he mentioned foreign policy, he faithfully recited the Colin Powell doctrine of not overextending the military.  Aside from his loathesome death penalty record, there was little reason to expect Bush to be as reactionary as he was able to become after September 11th.

On the other side, the progressive left certainly had many a beef with Clinton, and Gore didn't seem to intent on distancing himself from his former boss.

Obviously, supporting Nader was misguided, and he is obviously a megalomaniac seeking attention, particularly when he ran again in 2004.  But the overall effect that Nader had on the election was marginal.  In fact, I wonder if Gore's populist shift during his convention speech was partially a response to Nader.  If Nader cajoled Gore back on message, then he might have actually helped Gore's numbers.

Yet, we still just hear complaining about Nader.  Dems refuse to address any of the valid concerns the progressive left has with the party, and seem to have not learned any lessons from how the other things you list caused Bush's election, all of which, today, are much more relevant to electoral politics than whether a progressive third party candidate pulls 0.5% of the vote.


[ Parent ]
Pot, Kettle, Dude (0.00 / 0)
David Kowalski made a passing comment 6 hours ago, and here you are still yammering on, not willing to let go and simply admit that Nader had something to do with it.

Looks to me like you're the one with the outsized problem and lack of proportion thing going on.

All I've done is insist that Nader was part of the problem, and you can't abide that.

'Nuff said.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Why Not Blame Gore (0.00 / 0)
In the eight hears under this supposedly environmental vice president, more carbon was emitted into the atmosphere than during any eight years in all of history.

There's a reason why a bunch of left-wingers didn't vote for Gore. He had eight full years to prove himself, and he failed. He wrote a nice book once, but when the rubber hit the road, he didn't actually do anything.


[ Parent ]
It's Not Either/Or, Dude! (0.00 / 0)
I would really think that folks would know by now that I am not an either/or sort of guy.

And some of you might even have good enough memories to know that I voted for Nader in 2000--and the Clinton/Gore record on the environment was certainly a contributing factor.

But I did that with a clean conscience, since I live/d in California.  If I'd been a Floridian, I would have voted for Gore.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Nader (0.00 / 0)
I voted for Nader too. And I still don't regret it.

[ Parent ]
Just for the record, (0.00 / 0)
I was a Missouri resident, and hence voted for Gore.  I just had a nerve touched with all of that.  Sorry about the threadjacking.

[ Parent ]
Ron "Gandalf" Paul is no wizard (4.00 / 2)
Ron Paul is Gandalf

Ron Paul has a lot to say that reasonable people can agree with. For example, he does not support the War in Iraq.

My problem with Paul as a presidential candidate is simple. Paul would limit the activities of the federal government according to his own definition of what is Constitutional, and that would be limited indeed.

I want a President who believes the federal government has a positive role to play in our lives. I think we have let the haters of our U.S. Government work their magic for long enough.

Dr. Paul's Writings › A New Declaration
From ronpaul2008.com by Ron Paul, Dr.  July 3, 2006

"Our basic problem is that we have lost sight of the simple premise that guided the actions of our founding fathers. That premise? The government that governs least is the government that governs best."

Which of our founding fathers actually expressed this sentiment? Oh yea, was it the most notable of founding fathers, Henry David Thoreau?

This portion of Paul Rosenberg's argument was most relevant to me.

What Glenn fails to appreciate is that Paul is simply articulating the standard conservative ideology of 1937/38.  Like them, he is an isolationist-so rabidly so that he would denounce FDR as a war-mongering tyrant for wanting to stop Hitler.  Also like them, he is utterly opposed to the welfare state, and idealizes 19th Century capitalism, staunchly refusing to acknowledge the reality of the Great Depression and its direct connection to his ideal.  He decries as teasonous treasonous, socialistic and unconstitutional FDRs Hurculean Herculean efforts to save both capitalism (a threat exemplified on the world stage by the Soviet Union) and democracy (a threat exemplified by Nazi Germany).

Paul is not a conservative in one of the most plausible senses of the word-supporting the organic nature of existing society against radical restructuring.  In this sense, Paul-every bit as much as Bush-is a stark raving anti-conservative.  He wants to go back to a pure conservative past that never was, and he calls this "constitutionalism." But Paul's vision is no more "constitutionalism" than televangelists' mamon-worship is "Christianity."  Like any textual fundamentalist, he simply reads his own beliefs into his sacred text, and then reads them back out again, denouncing as a heretic anyone who disagrees with him.  A dead give-away in this regard is his claim, cited above that "if you look at every single problem we're facing today, it's because of the lack of respect for the rule of law and the Constitution."  This is the exact same attitude that Christian fundamentalists take toward the Bible-a single solution for all the problems we face. Emphasis mine

We the people get the best government we ask for. It is time we asked for more.


Please Stop (0.00 / 0)
Chris, please stop dragging down the level of discussion and debate at Open Left by promoting trash like this to the front page.

"He is thinking in terms of procedural fairness, and the attacks on Paul seem both unjust and fallacious-primarily in the way of guilt-by association.  This individidualist/case-oriented approach differs significantly from the group/social historical approach that informs David Neiwart and Sara Robinson's work at Orcinus, which I referenced."

I'm sorry, I didn't know that the new progressive politics was about redefining the political debate so it's fair game to use guilt by association as a tactic.

This is utter garbage. 

Not only is Ron Paul a rightwing nut, as others have noted (the most conservative member of the House, by the DW-Nominate scale, compared to Tancredo who fell short by 7, 13 and 16 slots in the 108th, 109th and 110th Congresses, respectively), he's a longtime magnet for the white supremacist fringe, and the rest of the hard right.

You are misrepresenting what the first dimension on the DW-Nominate scale measures.  Quote: "the first dimension can be interpreted in most periods as government intervention in the economy or liberal-conservative in the modern era."

Of course Ron Paul is going to find himself located far to the right on a scale that focuses primarily on government intervention in the economy, which remains a major dividing issue of the two parties.  Other metrics, like the National Journal, rank Ron Paul as one of the most liberal Republican members!


The only utter garbage on this post.... (0.00 / 0)
...is your comment. Such intemperate language is usually used to distract from a lack of substance.

I believe Mark Twain spoke most eloquently to this when he said:

It is better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than to open it and remove all doubt.

This sort of non-responsive comment belongs at dKos or RedState where the monkey's enjoy flinging the feces. Please hie yourself over there and keep out of the adults attempts at understanding what's going on here.

You will be happier there.

Peace, Health and Prosperity for Everyone.


[ Parent ]
Those Libertarians Sure Stick Together, Don't They? (0.00 / 0)
It's amazing how often various libertarians will attack libertarian critics for tarring them all with the same brush.  And then, when push comes to shove, they've suddenly got each other's back.

Something to keep in mind the next time FreedomDemocrat starts touting his "progressive" credentials.

Now to the "substance":

(1)

I'm sorry, I didn't know that the new progressive politics was about redefining the political debate so it's fair game to use guilt by association as a tactic.

David Neiwert and Sara Robinson are not engaging in guilt by association. As Dave himself has explained:

Well, what is "guilt by association"? It's considered part of the association fallacy:

      An association fallacy is an inductive formal fallacy of the type hasty generalization or red herring which asserts that qualities of one thing are inherently qualities of another, merely by an irrelevant association. [my emphasis]

The problem with Ron Paul isn't that he has irrelevant associations with far-right extremists -- it's that he seeks out their support, openly advocates their agenda, and receives financial and ideological support from them.

Now, of course, it's perfectly legitimate to debate the details of such behavior.  But to label and dismiss them in advance as "guilt-by-association" without even allowing any investigation, that's not just fallacious.  It's downright FAUX-News/media whore-ish.

(2)

You are misrepresenting what the first dimension on the DW-Nominate scale measures.  Quote: "the first dimension can be interpreted in most periods as government intervention in the economy or liberal-conservative in the modern era."

Sorry, dude, but this is yet another one of those pot/kettle/black situations.  The DW-Nominate scale is purely empirical, as I have indicated before.  Unlike anyone else's score system, it does not seek to define terms in advance, it simply looks at how people vote, and then analyzes how the entire legislative body votes.  It just so happens that over the course of US history, Congressional voting can be almost entirely explained in terms of two dimensions--neither of which was determined in advance.  Rather, both arose from the data itself.  Thus, the characterization you cite above is an observation after the fact.  Here is the context for that quote:

Howard Rosenthal and I in our book Congress: A Political-Economic History of Roll Call Voting, show that for most of American history race related issues (slavery, lynching, voting rights, civil rights, busing, etc.) have been an important part of the congressional agenda. Through most of American history Congressional voting can be explained by two dimensions. The first dimension can be interpreted in most periods as government intervention in the economy or liberal-conservative in the modern era. The 2nd dimension picks up the conflict between North and South on Slavery before the Civil War and from the late 1930s through the mid-1970s, civil rights for African-Americans. After 1980 there is considerable evidence that the South realigns and the 2nd dimension is no longer important. [emphasis added]

You can see the full ordering for the 109th (last complete) Congress here and you will see that all Democrats are more liberal than even the most liberal Republican, and that Paul is the most conservative Republican of all.

Now, it is worth noting that Paul has an extremely high error rate, no doubt due to the libertarian voting streak that puts him at odds with more social conservative Republicans.  (His error rate is high in other years as well, but not the highest.) However, this does not negate the fact that his ordinal position is that of the most conservative member of Congress.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Arguments (0.00 / 0)
Paul, I think that John Kerry did a better job in 2004 in defending in stance on the Iraq War than you do in your "arguments" against Ron Paul and the like.

You make the same claims, over and over and over again.  You throw in references to this blog or that article or that research. 

You essentially try to dump so many words into a post you hope everyone will agree with you else they face a reply or another post that is just as long, boring, and useless.

I want an open discussion on this issue, so on good faith I want to say the following . . .

The problem with Ron Paul isn't that he has irrelevant associations with far-right extremists -- it's that he seeks out their support, openly advocates their agenda, and receives financial and ideological support from them.

Both you and Dave claim that you are not trying to attack Ron Paul as guilty by association, but I am not seeing . . .

1- How he seeks out their support.

You may argue that his opposition to welfare programs and other social spending, or opposition to affirmative action, or opposition to illegal immigration, are all "codes" to appeal to racist groups.  And yes, you've shown your charts before about the correlation between, say, white male opposition to minorities in power and opposition to welfare spending.  I just don't see how you can honestly make the argument that he is trying to appeal to these groups because he holds these positions.

Does his opposition to the death penalty and the War on Drugs mean nothing?

2- How he "openly advocates their agenda."

This is another ABSURD claim.  This is the red flag of warning that brings up my concerns about guilt by association.  Paul I'm sure you've seen the right-wing discussions about the platform of Karl Marx in the Communist Manifesto and how it includes things like income taxes, and therefore the Democratic Party is a bunch of communists.  That's utterly absurd, and to suggest that because racists opposition welfare, and Ron Paul opposes welfare, therefore Ron Paul is a racist, is just as absurd.

I will concede this point:

3- Financial and ideological support from them.

The financial aspect is the only story about Ron Paul that I've seen so far that I think is worth mentioning.  It is just as possible, though, that Ron Paul's campaign team is understaffed and inexperienced and made a mistake.  That leaves open the argument that his campaign isn't ready for the national level yet, but that doesn't make him a racist.  Just inexperienced.


[ Parent ]
Click The DAMN LINKS, Loser! (0.00 / 0)
This is a diary.  As such, it addresses a certain subject, one part of the vast, never-unending flow of discourse on the web.  It does so in part by linking to earlier diaries, both by myself, and by others.  It does not attempt to recapitulate the history of the universe, or even the entire history of the debates of which it is a part.  That is why God invented hyperlinks.

In this case, Ron Paul's long history of courting the hard right was referenced via a link to a diary by David Niewart, thus:

The only problem is that I wrote a good deal more than that single paragraph.  I referenced some of the long-running commentary on Paul at Orcinus, among other things, and although Glenn has responded ("Ron Paul distortions and smears") to a more recent post by David at Orrinus ("Ron Paul's record in Congress"), he did so in an uncharacteristically superficial way, while ignoring another post altogether ("Ron Paul and his followers"), which went much more directly into the material that Greenwald was not examining, which details Paul's history of intentionally courting  "anti-semites and other assorted crazies and haters."

Now, if you want to challenge some of what David wrote in "Ron Paul and his followers", or what he wrote in the posts I linked to in my comment to Glenn's diary, you are certainly free to do so.  But you haven't done that.  Rather, you are whining because instead of writing the same old posts over and over again, I am advancing the argument by writing about something new.

I am not seeing . . .

1- How he seeks out their support....

2- How he "openly advocates their agenda."

Because you aren't looking. Because you don't want to see. Because you don't follow the links:

But that's who Ron Paul is -- a "constitutionalist" who deals in conspiracy theories and extremist anti-government beliefs. It's who he always has been, and who he is now. It isn't just an accident that Paul very recently spoke to a group with troubling racial ties, or that he attended a Patriot Network banquet in his honor in 2004, or that he gave an interview to a conspiracist magazine the same year. Hell, he's been operating within those same circles since 1985....

Here are links to our previous reportage on Paul:

The trouble with Ron

Ron Paul vs. the New World Order

Man of the Hour

Six impossible things before breakfast

Return of the New World Order

The real Ron Paul surfaces

No fault of his own

I never tire of being amazed at how lacking in personal responsibility conservatives are, be they social conservatives or libertarian conservatives.  They just can't seem to stop whining and start acting like self-starting adults.

Go ahead.  Amaze me.  Prove me wrong.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Here in Austin, TX, there are a LOT of Ron Paul-ites running (0.00 / 0)
around.  One of the most common pieces of messaging that I see is this black and white sign that says "Ron Paul rEVOlution", with the E backwards, and the EVO in a black box. 

I would understand what that poster would mean for a Marxist candidate.  With Ron Paul, I'm genuinely stumped.  His message is all about hearkening back to some previous time, not to a notion of progress.  Is it a dog whistle appeal to Social Darwinism or something?  Does anyone have any idea?


Austin is Ron Paul country (4.00 / 1)
There are two strains in the Texas culture that Paul is tapping into -- the nativist crowd and the techno/libertarian crowd they share a love for black helicopter 9/11 conspiracy theories and staggering around in a haze of pot smoke.
I've always felt that alot of those people are potentially political allies in that they intuit that something is deeply wrong with the economic and social structure of our society but don't have the critical thinking skills or patience to avoid falling into conspiracy think. There's also the sad fact that much libertarianism has a racist component -- tribalists don't like sharing resources with "the other".

[ Parent ]
Are We Not Men??? (4.00 / 1)
I could say that it makes about as much sense as the whole Ron Paul phenomena.

Or, I could just say, Jocko Homo, Dude!

    They tell us that
    We lost our tails
    Evolving up
    From little snails
    I say its all
    Just wind in sails

    Are we not men?
    We are devo!
    Are we not men?
    D-e-v-o

    We're pinheads now
    We are not whole
    Were pinheads all
    Jocko homo

    Are we not men?
    We are devo!
    Are we not men?
    D-e-v-o
    Are we not pins?
    We are devo!
    Are we not men?
    D-e-v-o

    Monkey men all
    In business suit
    Teachers and critics
    All dance the poot

    We are devo!
    Are we not men?
    D-e-v-o
    Are we not pins?
    We are devo!
    Are we not men?
    D-e-v-o

    God made man
    But he used the monkey to do it
    Apes in the plan
    Were all here to prove it
    I can walk like an ape
    Talk like an ape
    I can do what a monkey can do
    God made man
    But a monkey supplied the glue

    Are we not men?
    We are devo!
    Are we not men?
    We are devo!
    Are we not men?
    We are devo!
    Are we not men?
    We are devo!

    We must repeat
    D-e-v-o
    We must repeat
    D-e-v-o
    We must repeat
    D-e-v-o
    We must repeat
    D-e-v-o
    We must repeat
    D-e-v-o
    We must repeat
    D-e-v-o
    We must repeat
    D-e-v-o
    We must repeat
    O.K. lets go!



"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Too tactful (0.00 / 0)
The moral of this story is that Glenn Greenwald, no matter how  smart of a lawyer he may or may not be, is a political imbecile.

I'm Sorry, But (4.00 / 3)
it's precisely this sort of simplistic dualistic thinking that I'm trying to push beyond.  There are multiple reasons why people do seemingly inexplicable things.  Lumping them all together and slapping a conventient label on them doesn't do anything at all to actually enlighten any of us.

Instead, I'm trying my darndest to tease the reasons apart.  And it's not just an idle exercise.  I think we really need to understand each other--and ourselves--a whole lot better than we presently do.  Particularly considering the organized idiocy we face everyday coming from Versailles.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
thank you (0.00 / 0)
for this post Paul. Very important. I had become a little disturbed by Glenn's Ron Paul posts.

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