Neoliberalism's "Heart of Darkness"

by: Paul Rosenberg

Mon Aug 02, 2010 at 13:30


In my earlier diary, "Conservative priorities: Elite rhetoric vs. base voter reality", I wrote:

In yesterday's "Idiot wind" diary discussion, bystander called attention to a recent blog post by Matt Yglesias, focused on this passage:

    From a Keynesian standpoint, I believe that with the economy depressed it's better to spend the money in Afghanistan than not to spend it.

There was a whole lot else wrong with that post, I thought.  Enough to do a diary about.

This is that diary.


To begin with, bystander linked to a diary by charles davis, "Beltway liberalism in 24 words", which says in part:

[T]here's something wrong -- something sick, really -- with Ygelsias' war-as-stimulus argument that strikes me as far more offensive than the fact that some fiscal conservatives are hypocrites when it comes to the National Security State. If you believe the war in Afghanistan is vital to protecting America, well, go ahead and make your case. Explain why pushing the couple dozen or so members of al-Qaeda allegedly still in the country over to Pakistan, while creating new enemies with each errant air strike, actually makes us safer.

What you shouldn't do in a debate over war, at least if you want to maintain your status as a Non-Despicable Person, is argue that bombing and occupying a foreign nation makes good economic sense. Even if it were true as an academic point, it's grotesquely out of place in a discussion of matters of life and death. War, if it can ever be justified -- and I have my doubts -- can only be so on the grounds that it is absolutely necessary to protecting human life: there is no other choice, it's a last resort.

This is a pretty obvious and morally compelling point, which really goes to the heart of what's wrong with neoliberalism generally: it is, all too often, an ideology of calculations in which "market forces" and other process gobbledegook utterly displaces questions of morality.  

Paul Rosenberg :: Neoliberalism's "Heart of Darkness"
It's not that morality plays no role for neoliberals: it's an input, a variable, a side issue--it can take on any number of forms... except that of an actual moral imperative. There is one exception, of course: the moral imperative to keep moral imperatives at bay, except in defense of would-be neoliberal order.  I say, "would-be neo-liberal order" because, for the most part, neo-liberalism is devoted to trying to "rationalize" the neo-colonial world order that others have created, but which neo-liberals think that they can do a far superior job in running.

While Bush was in office, this took on a particularly ludicrous form, when neo-liberal hawks, epitomized by the New Republic, supported the invasion of Iraq based on the ludicrous premise that Bush's war was fought for their reasons, not his, and would be directed toward their ends, not his.  Under Obama, they've taken a somewhat different, but equally fallacious stance, pretending that innocent civilians killed for their reasons, corrupt officials bribed for their reasons, and make-believe allies hostile to their reasons will produce progress toward their ends by some sort of magical formula they never quite manage to explain.

Turning in particular to the diary at hand, Yglesias begins:

Priorities

People who believe that the war in Afghanistan is important to the long-term interests of the United States of America are absolutely, unequivocally correct to vote to spend tens of billions of dollars on it notwithstanding the adverse impact that has on the deficit. I think we should be clear about that. If you think this war is important, then you should blow up the deficit to get the job done. Under current circumstances, it would be completely insane for the government to not do something important simply because of the deficit. Situations can arise when the deficit should be considered an independent consideration that's given weight, but that time is not today.

So rather than note the hypocrisy of the several hundred House deficit-whiners who voted yesterday for a deficit-ballooning war appropriation it's worth just worth dwelling on what counts as a priority for the United States of America today. Is Afghanistan important? Sure. Does it matter? Sure.

This is a truly heinous, if obli que and torturous argument, depending on an entire galaxy of counterfactuals.   One big part of that galaxy is the false supposition that conservatives are just liberals with a different set of policy preferences: given their different preferences, they they behave just like liberals would. That's the unavoidable subtext of the first sentence:

People who believe that the war in Afghanistan is important to the long-term interests of the United States of America are absolutely, unequivocally correct to vote to spend tens of billions of dollars on it notwithstanding the adverse impact that has on the deficit.

Yet, the very same week that Yglesias wrote that, Republicans blocked a bill primarily composed of small-business tax cuts, as TPM reported:

All 41 Senate Republicans yesterday filibustered a jobs package comprised largely of tax cuts.

You read that right. Republicans filibustered tax cuts.

By the GOP's own admission, the underlying legislation has broad bipartisan support. It would create a $30 billion Treasury-backed fund to help community banks issue loans to small businesses and provide entrepreneurs with $12 billion in tax cuts -- a Republican kind of bill if ever there was one.

But Republicans had been threatening for weeks to stop it, unless they were offered a chance to offer amendments on issues like border security, capping federal spending, and the estate tax -- all of which Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid held to be non-germane to the issue of job creation.

Moral: conservatives are not just liberals with a different set of policy priorities.  They are fundamentally different in how they are wired. Winning power is their primary concern.  Policy is a means to that end, rather than power being a means to the end of implementing good policy.

There are all sorts of reasons that different sorts of liberals and their fellow-travelers make the mistake of believing that conservatives are just liberals with a different set of policy priorities, but whatever Matt's personal reasons, the belief serves to impute a false presumption of moral seriousness to the business of organized mass murder, since that is, after all, what war is.

In theory, President Obama recognizes this.  He campaigned saying that he did not oppose all wars, pointing to the Civil War and World War II as examples of good and necessary wars, wars that he could and would support. Implicit in this stance is the recognition that war is inherent evil, and that it needs a truly compelling moral rationale in order to be justified, which is the same basic moral outlook that stands behind traditional Roman and Catholic just war theory. But in practice, there is virtually never a just war: there is just war: just mass murder and its improvised justifications. If one truly believes in just war, then one must be scrupulous about its requirements, but no such scruples are involved in Matt's argument--or anywhere else in the neo-liberal universe, for that matter.

Just war theory has six requirements:

  • Just Cause;
  • Proper Authority;
  • Right Intention;
  • Reasonable Hope for Success;
  • Proportionality;
  • Last Resort

Some of these points may be debatable, but given that fewer than 100 al Qaeda operatives are in Afghanistan, given the fact that we're mostly fighting the Taliban, who have never attacked us on our own soil, given the high civilian casualty rate, and given the fact that the more civilians we kill, the more Taliban supporters, if not terrorists we create, the last four points cannot possibly be met.  The pretense of just war is thus clearly a sham.  Which is why war supporters avoid debating it, and instead simply try to strengthen the impression of serious moral purpose, just as Matt does in this diary.

Of course hypocrisy is devastating to claims of moral seriousness, which is why Matt needs to take the growing heat off of deficit chickenhawks who form the bulk of war supporters:

If you think this war is important, then you should blow up the deficit to get the job done. Under current circumstances, it would be completely insane for the government to not do something important simply because of the deficit. Situations can arise when the deficit should be considered an independent consideration that's given weight, but that time is not today.

So rather than note the hypocrisy of the several hundred House deficit-whiners who voted yesterday for a deficit-ballooning war appropriation it's worth just worth dwelling on what counts as a priority for the United States of America today. Is Afghanistan important? Sure. Does it matter? Sure.


Note that Matt not only takes the heat off of deficit chickenhawks, he actively takes their side, and subtly shifts his voice until ultimately he is speaking for himself, not them.  This becomes most clear just after this passage, when suddenly dons his reasonable detached wonk persona:

Is the performance of a Provincial Reconstruction Team in Khost Province more important to the long-term interests of American citizens than the performance of the Riverside County Public Schools? I don't think so.

This is what launches him on the trajectory that eventually leads to his vile invocation of Keynes to justify war.  The shifts in Matt's perspective and voice are subtle, the sorts of things that serious writers and readers are attentive to, but that most are not.  They are the kinds of habitual deception that have become so commonplace in our political discourse that they are scarcely ever commented on, even by writers and readers skilled enough to recognize them in the other contexts.  And yet they speak directly to the moral vacuity at the heart of all our politics. It's not that Matt is a particularly bad guy.  He's not.  But neither is he a morally serious critic of the policies he writes about.  Which, of course, is why he's given so much credibility--which he then returns in spades.


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Interesting set of reactions (0.00 / 0)
Two points:

1) Matt's post was actually against the Afghanistan War.  His concluding sentence was "But it's kind of nuts that at a time when we "can't afford" to do all kinds of things, this is what we can afford."

He has been arguing against the Afghan War from the point of view of fiscal priority for quite some time, now.  He thinks the war is neither cost effective nor a high priority compared to all the problems at home that need to be dealt with, problems easily solved if given the same budget as the Afghan War.

2) I find it fascinating how point 1) doesn't change the relevance of anything you say.  One would think misunderstanding whether a post was in favor or against the war would be a huge issue.  Instead, the fact it isn't obvious basically highlights your main point.


Not At All Unusual (4.00 / 3)
Chris Matthews insists that he was against the Iraq War. And one can find scattered quotes to support this view. But the totality of his coverage--including his notorious fawning over Bush's "I Love a Man In Uniform" turn--presents exactly the opposite impression.

Similarly, I'm quite certain that Obama still somehow thinks of himself as being opposed to war in general.

When the conscious and the unconscious are at war with one another, the unconscious invariably wins.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Perhaps (4.00 / 2)
But I think this reply, as opposed to the post, misses the point.  It isn't a matter of the conscious versus the unconscious, it is about how one thinks and makes decisions.

Matt honestly thinks there are good points to the war.  That isn't unconscious, he openly states that all the time.  It is just after thinking it through, he thinks it isn't worth it.  After the cost-benefit analysis is complete, the benefits are not worth the cost.

In the post you got it right:

It's not that morality plays no role for neoliberals: it's an input, a variable, a side issue--it can take on any number of forms... except that of an actual moral imperative.

That's why I thought it was interesting that it made no difference that you missed Matt was technically on your side.  The whole point was neoliberals use a different decision making process than progressives.  That is true regardless if they end up agreeing with your final conclusion or not.


[ Parent ]
There Are Many Points, Mark (4.00 / 1)
And I think that the conscious/unconscious distinction is not unrelated to the process distinction, both of which are quite important in themselves. But making that relationship explicit and well-supported is a project for another time.

BTW, for that matter, I think there are good things about the war, too. Unfortunately, they're almost all illusions, while the dead, wounded, orphaned and widowed are all too terribly real.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
What's wrong with a cost-benefit analysis? (0.00 / 0)
If neoliberals use cost-benefit analysis and progressives use a different process, what do progressives use?

Of course, cost-benefit analysis is merely a tool and sometimes you run the numbers, come up with a solution, and toss that out because something is more important than the math.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both


[ Parent ]
it's deeper than that (4.00 / 3)
To me the issues are the much deeper ones of what counts as costs, what counts as benefits, and who does the counting.

As a practical matter, in most cases these deeper questions are avoided by those most fervently spouting cost-benefit analysis, using it as a tool to cast a sheen of neutrality over political choices: "Don't blame me, it's just the math."

Did they get you to trade your heroes for ghosts? Hot ashes for trees? Hot air for a cool breeze? And cold comfort for change?


[ Parent ]
Insert random Rush song here (4.00 / 3)
There isn't anything wrong with a cost-benefit analysis.  The problem is when you drop your moral core and only do cost-benefit analysis.  Then, with the moral core dropped, the costs of war are under appreciated and the benefits are over appreciated.

The thing is, all costs and all benefits are ultimately moral decisions.  Once you allow yourself to believe only these types are analyses are valid, you start down a path where the end result no longer is accurate.


[ Parent ]
Take that attitude (4.00 / 1)
And use it to critique how the left makes arguments about health care reform or abortion.

I feel that people love cost-benefit analysis when it supports what they want and think it is overrated or that only morality matters if the analysis doesn't completely back up what they say.  They also only mention polls when their position has popular support.  Otherwise, they say that democracy over-rated or that it is an area such as fundamental rights where the majority shouldn't have a say.

I don't think one should believe that only these types of analyses are valid, but I do think that these types of analyses should always be done, time and resources permitting.  I do think you need to take a scientific approach and try keep personal biases in check, so that you can be as objective as possible.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both


[ Parent ]
Less random Rush lyrics (0.00 / 0)
I think we mostly agree.  One should always do these kinds of cost-benefit analyses.

My reference to Rush was a bit subtle, but I was thinking of Closer to the Heart and Cygnus X-1, Book II Hemispheres

...
Let the truth of love be lighted
Let the love of truth shine clear
Sensibility
Armed with sense and liberty
With the heart and mind united
In a single perfect sphere


[ Parent ]
I have a negative emotional reaction to Rush (0.00 / 0)
Mainly due to all the Randroids who love Rush because of Neil Peart's Objectivist leanings.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both

[ Parent ]
Rand (0.00 / 0)
Like many smart people, Pert was attracted to Rand at an early age, but outgrew it over time.  That internal struggle is what makes these songs interesting.  That quote is from the same album with The Trees, which is very Randish -- or at least can be heard that way.  Yet he clearly knows something is missing.

Later in life he'd write songs like The Big Money, which isn't very Randian at all.


[ Parent ]
(Cough! Cough!) Smart People Are Attracted To Nietzsche, Not Rand. (4.00 / 1)
Rand is Nietzsche for Dummies.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Like all good things (4.00 / 1)
Rush is a complex mix of good and bad. One needs to weigh the costs and benefits carefully.

Play drums like Peart and I'll ignore a lot of one's character flaws. World class drumming and anti-religious lyrics outweigh early infatuations with vulgar Objectivism. Not to mention, to have meaningful principles of any kind is something of a rarity in the industry. And 2112 and All the Worlds A Stage from the early years are truly great albums. Working Man, indeed. Though I am really more a blues and jazz and psychedelic rock person, Rush gots skills I cannot ignore.

You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill
I will choose a path that's clear I will choose free will.

For a young atheist in grade school those were powerful words and free will meant something other than Randian philosophy, whatever Peart intended.

Did they get you to trade your heroes for ghosts? Hot ashes for trees? Hot air for a cool breeze? And cold comfort for change?


[ Parent ]
Health care reform and reproductive rights (4.00 / 2)
are, for progressives, about human dignity and worth. You don't use cost-benefit analyses to arrive at those, they are a given.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Of course you use cost-benefit analysis for those (0.00 / 0)
You just have the option of assigning a very large cost or benefit towards certain items.  You can choose to value non-monetary costs and benefits.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both

[ Parent ]
So What's Your Cost-Benefit Analysis of Slavery Tell You? (0.00 / 0)
I'd really like to hear.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
A cost benefit analysis of slavery (0.00 / 0)
Is that it has high social costs that can't possibly be out-weighed by any benefit.  Of course, I don't measure cost and benefits in terms of dollars.

If I needed to assess the benefits of slavery, economic or otherwise, I feel that I ought to be able to temporarily detach myself and try to be objective in the same way that an anthropologists are supposed to detach themselves from cultural biases while examining another culture.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both


[ Parent ]
What you're missing here is the "I." (4.00 / 2)
The "I" here is, literally, "you." In other words, you are putting yourself in a position to make decisions about other people's lives as if they were mere widgets. As if they had no autonomy or rights of their own.

It doesn't matter that you so generously reach the politically correct conclusion ("slavery bad"), your magesterial approach to the process is inherently anti-liberal.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
Even In The Extreme Case Of Slavery, He Just Doesn't Get It (0.00 / 0)
True believers never do.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
No, you don't. (4.00 / 1)
Using cost-benefit analysis for moral questions is how the gas chamber was invented. By perfectly reasonable, detached wonks, I might add.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Right is different from wrong. (4.00 / 3)
Cost-benefit analyses are for making decisions such as: "Should we build a factory in Peoria or Scranton?" "Should we offer the product in 24 oz boxes or 32 oz boxes?" It's not the correct way to answer questions of human life or death.

What Paul so aptly names the "reasonable detached wonk" approach is a recipe for evil at its most banal.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
Nuts? (4.00 / 1)
Assuming that Yglesias' argument is:

The War is expansionary, but there are other more worthy expansionary ways to use those funds; therefore it does not make good economic sense to continue it.

then Davis and Paul do have a point, because the argument about our occupation of Afghanistan is then a question merely of what we can and cannot afford at this point in time - what will give us more bang for the buck.

But if you start from the premise that this 'war' is in violation of international law, immoral in execution and so forth, then whether or not it is the correct expansionary policy is rather beside the point. It doesn't even begin to meet the necessary conditions for a 'just war'.

It is still somewhat acceptable in the mainstream to make the 'economic argument against war' - it is 'well intentioned, but not practical'. But as Paul says above, it always turns out to be just a war - never a just one.


[ Parent ]
There are, however, people in this nation (0.00 / 0)
that buy the concept of a "just war" and, despite the analyses demonstrating that the war in Afghanistan does not meet those standards, contend that it is justified.

No matter how many times you, or Paul, or I try to tell them just how wrong they are on this point, I doubt we'll convince many of them to change their "moral" stance.

However, if some of those war supporters characterized in the last paragraph also imagine themselves as "fiscal conservatives", the "economic argument against war" may find a way to turn them away from supporting this war in particular, thereby making it easier to end US involvment in Afghanistan sooner rather than later.


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
You are assuming (0.00 / 0)
they love money more than death. I wouldn't make that assumption.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
No, I'm not (0.00 / 0)
I'm taking a short-term approach to ending this particular war by trying to foment a divide on the right that might weaken support for it.

Realize, I'm not trying to convince any GOPper insiders or elites of this position - my comment pertains to those folks that actually live in my communities.



"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
misunderstanding of keynesianism? (4.00 / 1)
From a Keynesian standpoint, I believe that with the economy depressed it's better to spend the money in Afghanistan than not to spend it.

Shouldn't the current, horrible, depressed state of the economy contradict the premise?

We've been spending boatloads of money on Afghanistan (and Iraq) and the economy continues to swirl the drain.

What's the net effect on employment?  Even if it's true that Americans have been hired in war-related industry, how many more people have been laid off because we're spending money on the wars?


Multipliers (4.00 / 3)
It depends upon where the money is actually spent.  All the money spent actually in Afghanistan and Pakistan doesn't help, but all the money spent here does, including much of the salaries for those working over there (including mercenaries contractors), but ultimately spent over here.  I'm not sure how the actual numbers work out, though.  

I'm sure the multiplier is pretty low, though -- far below 1.  So it is a net drain only assuming the money actually got spent somewhere else.  But in comparison to just having a lower deficit, it is a net boost.  It all depends upon the counter-factual.

For pure Keynesianism, you could pay someone to just stand in a corner -- it doesn't matter what they do.  Those multipliers are more about how the money is spent by the receiver than what they actually do.  (Food stamp recipients don't do anything for the money, but it has the highest multiplier because the money will be spent within the US economy.)  It is for other reasons you want someone to do something actually useful.


[ Parent ]
wait (0.00 / 0)
Are you saying that we'd have a higher deficit if we weren't at war in the middle east?

Doesn't the current state of the economy contradict the premise that the Afghanistan conflict is "good" for the US economy?


[ Parent ]
No (4.00 / 1)
I'm saying we'd have a lower deficit if we weren't at war in the Middle East.

Doesn't the current state of the economy contradict the premise that the Afghanistan conflict is "good" for the US economy?

Of course, all this is digging into the debate that everyone finds offensive (for good reason!).  But no, you can't take some random thing that is happening, notice the economy is bad and then say that random thing is bad for the economy.  Even when it is true, as it often will be, that is illogical.

For example, the economy was doing okay when my wife and I were homeschooling our daughter.  Soon after we stopped and she went to a real school, the economy cratered.


[ Parent ]
Um, (0.00 / 0)
I hope you pulled your daughter out of that school.

Some random thing?  You mean that thing that's costing trillions of dollars?

Not only is it morally repugnant to claim that we should stay at war in the ME because it's good for our economy (Yglesias?), it's also not true - it can't be.  


[ Parent ]
Ok (0.00 / 0)
The stimulus hurt the economy!  Look at the economy!  Proof!

I've heard many a conservative make that claim.  You are using the kind of logic that isn't.

Everyone agrees that WWII ended the Great Depression.  I've yet to hear anyone claim that we should have started that war on our own if there hadn't already been one conveniently being held.

We are all interconnected and the world is a complex place.  Good things can have bad side effects and bad things can have good side effects.  There is no contradiction here.


[ Parent ]
wasn't the beneficial economic effect (for the US only) (0.00 / 0)
of WW2 an historical aberration?

[ Parent ]
No. (4.00 / 1)
It was a rarity--a huge war to help end a huge depression.  But that's not an aberration.  Any similar such combo would have the same result.  There aren't many such combos, obviously.

But that just makes them rare, not aberrant.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
it's also untrue (0.00 / 0)
that the current wars have a net stimulative effect on our economy.  Agree?

[ Parent ]
It could be (0.00 / 0)
That current wars are insufficiently large if analyzed solely on the dimension of whether or not the war helps the economy.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both

[ Parent ]
how much larger (0.00 / 0)
would it need to get in order to disprove?

the "common knowledge" that war is economically beneficial to the economy is a myth.


[ Parent ]
Overstated (4.00 / 4)
The New Deal by itself eliminated 60% of the unemployment taking unemployment from 24.9% to 9.9%.  WW II eliminated 90% of the remainder.  Were it not for the balanced budget mistake, unemployment would have been down to 7% or so and the Depression would have ended in 1943 or so.

Growth in the GDP during the mid 30s was phenomenal with years of 13%, 10% and 8%.  Growth in the Dow Jones average during the 30s was the next best ever only topped by Bill Clinton's 90s.

This Republican lie needs to be fought.  It encourages war and munitions making and discourages humane responses to poverty, education and infrastructure.


[ Parent ]
Cf (0.00 / 0)
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com...

http://www.washingtonsblog.com...

http://www.washingtonsblog.com...


[ Parent ]
I don't understand this criticism at all. (0.00 / 0)
Matt is clearly opposed to the war in Afghanistan in the way it is being run at this point (maybe/probably he'd support a limited Biden-type plan); the body of his work makes that clear.

What he's doing here is simply isolating a particular argument by granting other variable terms in the argument: "IF the war is worth fighting, THEN it is worth fighting regardless of its effect on the deficit. BUT other projects are manifestly more worthwhile than much of what is involved in the war effort. SO those other projects are a fortiori worth doing regardless of their effect on the deficit."

He also adds the addendum about Keynesian effects of spending to point out that money spent in Afghanistan has some positive economic effects; but even if this were the justification for spending money on the war in Afghanistan, this justification would still apply all the more so to domestic spending. He certainly isn't justifying the war as Keynesian stimulus, which would be absurd. This seems obvious to me.

In short, the point of Matt's post is that it is perverse that our government is prioritizing spending on the T. G. I. Friday's at Kandahar Air Base over education and infrastructure here in the US. Do any of us disagree with that?


We need to bridge this gap (4.00 / 1)
I do understand what Paul is saying, but also agree with every specific thing you say here.  What you wrote is basically my initial reaction, before I contemplated further.  The point is Matt is working under an entirely different frame than Paul.  It is important to understand those differences.

Ideally the moral centered progressives and the logic driven neoliberals would work in perfect harmony.  But we're broken.  The neoliberals have internalized too much conservative philosophy and progressives no longer trust them.  To me, this is the fundamental issue facing liberalism today.  Fix this and the rest falls in place.


[ Parent ]
I don't think neoliberals internalize conservative philosophy (4.00 / 1)
I think it is more that they have internalized a principle of cultural/moral relativism.  They view the difference between liberal and conservative as more of a subjective than objective difference just as they might view the difference between being a Catholic or Jew or atheist as one where there is no absolute good or evil that allows one to determine which religious viewpoint is best.  That doesn't mean that they believe all belief systems are equally valid, just that no belief system has a monopoly on truth, whether political, religious, or other.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both

[ Parent ]
But that's what conservativism is, ultimately. (0.00 / 0)
It's nihilism. Nothing matters, better smash and grab what you can, while you can. Conservatives believe people are evil and must be controlled, specifically by themselves. They believe the world itself is evil.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Conservatives aren't nihilists (0.00 / 0)
Nihilism rejects authority and objective truth.  You can't say the same thing about conservatism.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both

[ Parent ]
Conservatives reject any authority (0.00 / 0)
other than themselves. How else do you explain myth of the Kenyan usurper? Or Whitewater for that matter? As for objective truth, how many conservatives believe in global warming, or even evolution?

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
You are deliberately being dense (0.00 / 0)
Nihilists reject any authority.  Conservatives reject anyone else's authority, but embrace their own.  You are conflating the two so that you can engage in name-calling and refer to conservatives as nihilists.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both

[ Parent ]
I call 'em like I see 'em. (0.00 / 0)


Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
The money quote (4.00 / 4)
for the most part, neo-liberalism is devoted to trying to "rationalize" the neo-colonial world order that others have created, but which neo-liberals think that they can do a far superior job in running.

This should be a final exam question in every high school civics class in the U.S.:

What is neo-liberalism?

Neo-liberalism is the rationalization of neo-colonialism by viewing the world primarily as a market system and corporations as the means whereby economic, social and political change should be enacted.

For extra points, name several neo-liberal U.S. Presidents.

Bill Clinton, Barack Obama.  


Women & Afghanistan (0.00 / 0)
I hate the Afghani war but I grow heartsick when I think of what happens to women under Taliban rule.  

The maybe we should stop funding the Taliban (4.00 / 2)
with our war.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Neo-Liberalism (0.00 / 0)
I thought Neo-Liberalism was based on an acceptance of corporate power, and that the inevitability and primacy of corporate power must be taken into account whenever a political leader/group wants to accomplish any progressive goal. The Neo-Liberal really wants progress but will seek approval from the corporate powers to be and then work to get some concessions from them.  

Bill Clinton. Bills' charm actually got corporate America to like him while he gave them what they wanted and got something in return. He did get job expansion (for college grads) in return for blowing up the industrial jobs of the Midwest (which might have been inevitable anyhow).

Community organizers could be looked on as pragmatic Neo-Liberals. They work to get a community to do what a corporate entity (which could be a hospital or university) wants while getting some concessions that cost the corporate entities very little.






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