An end-times election?

by: Paul Rosenberg

Wed Oct 27, 2010 at 09:00


This past Friday, Sara Robinson wrote a post at Campaign for America's Future, "Fascist America: Is This Election The Next Turn?", in which she returned to piece written in the midst of the Tea Party frenzy of August, 2009, "Fascist America: Are We There Yet?", along with two followup posts (here and here).

First she quickly reviewed the foundations of those posts in Robert Paxton's Anatomy of Fascism, first citing Paxton's definition, then some key stages in the development of fascism, and finally a set of three questions to ask if you've crossed the line to the stage where there's no turning back.  There are very few movements that cross this line, but the ones that do enter into decades-long nightmares.  Could we be next? With that in mind, she then looks at three possible outcomes of the coming election.  All this, obviously, was written before Lauren Valle had her head stomped on by Rand Paul's thugs. But it provides the historically appropriate background for understanding what we saw happening. Perhaps--just perhaps--this violent thuggery got out ahead itself, and tipped its hands to the wider public in time to turn the tide.  We won't really know until late election night. But it's well worth reviewing what Robinson warned us of.

First off, there's Paxton's definition:

Paxton defined fascism as:
    ...a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion.

There there's Paxton's stages.  She doesn't go through them all--as she did in her original.  But she goes through enough:

In the first stage, a mature industrial state facing some kind of crisis breeds a new, rural movement that's based on nationalist renewal. This movement invariably rejects reason and glorifies raw emotion, promises to restore lost national pride, co-opts the nation's traditional myths for its own purposes, and insists that the country must be purged of the toxic influence of outsiders and intellectuals who are blamed for their current misery.

(Sound familiar yet?)

In the second stage, the movement takes root, turns into a real political party, and seizes a seat at the table. Success at this stage, Paxton writes, "depends on certain relatively precise conditions: the weakness of a liberal state, whose inadequacies condemn the nation to disorder, decline, or humiliation; and political deadlock because the Right, the heir to power but unable to continue to wield it alone, refuses to accept a growing Left as a legitimate governing partner."

(Paging the Party of No....)

In the face of this deadlock, the corporate elites forge an alliance with rural nationalists, creating an unholy marriage that, if it continues, will soon breed a fascist state. And, of course, this is precisely what's happening now between the Koch Brothers, the oil companies, Americans for Prosperity, and the Tea Party.

And, of course, candidates like Sharron Angle:

This is where most proto-fascist movements die, primarily because of "the basic authoritarian ineptitude of their leadership," as Robinson puts it.  Now, however, we have some of the slickest, most experienced professionals around.  But there are also some real loose cannons and wild cards as well.  So were definitely still could get lucky.  We can use all the luck we can get:

Paul Rosenberg :: An end-times election?

According to Paxton, there are three quick questions that let you know you've crossed that fail-safe line beyond which an emerging fascist regime has too much power to be stopped:
    1. Are [neo- or protofascisms] becoming rooted as parties that represent major interests and feelings and wield major influence on the political scene?
    2. Is the economic or constitutional system in a state of blockage apparently insoluble by existing authorities?
    3. Is a rapid political mobilization threatening to escape the control of traditional elites, to the point where they would be tempted to look for tough helpers in order to stay in charge?

If the answer to all three is "yes," you're probably on for the rest of the ride, which can run for at least a decade or two before it burns through.

A year ago, I noted that we were already three for three on these questions. Now, the "yes" answers are far more resounding. With over 70 Tea Party candidates running for major state and federal offices on the ballot this November, it's fair to say that the 2010 election is shaping up as a national referendum on the Tea Party's future viability.

That's Robinson's set-up, and these are alternatives she lays out (she is, btw, a futurist by training, and thinking rigorously in terms of alternative scenarios is key to futurist do):

1. The Tea Party is rejected outright by the voters on November 2. A handful of their candidates do win their races; and for the next few years, the Democrats have a grand time pointing out their sheer wingnuttitude, bolstering a compelling case against electing any more of them in the future. The party begins to lose momentum, and in a few years is defunct.

2. The Tea Party elects a credible number of these 70-odd candidates -- enough to make a solid showing and establish its political bona fides, but not enough to get anything serious done. If this happens, progressives need to work fast and hard. If this right-wing tide continues to build as we head into the 2012 election, we'll still be cruising straight into a fascist future -- just not quite yet. There's time to stop it, but the momentum is not on our side -- and stopping it only gets harder with every passing week.

3. A solid majority of the Tea Party candidates win their races, cementing the movement's lock on the GOP and turning it into a genuine political power in this country. They've already promised us that if they take either house of Congress, the next two years will be a lurid nightmare of hearings, trials, impeachments, and character assassinations against progressives. (Which could, in the end, backfire on the GOP as badly as the Clinton impeachment did. We can hope.) Similar scorched-earth harassment awaits officials at every other level of government, too. And casual violence against immigrants, gays, and progressives may escalate as the Tea Party brownshirts become bolder, confident that at least some authorities will either back them up or look the other way.

In this scenario, the fail-safe point -- the point beyond which no country has ever turned back from the full fascist nightmare -- may well be behind us when we wake up on November 3. [Emphasis  mine.] From there, the rest will play out in agonizing slow motion; and the character of the rest of this decade will hinge almost entirely on whether the corporatists, the militarists, or the theocrats ultimately get the upper hand in the emerging regime.

This is how Robinson sees the stakes in the election before us, and while she could, of course, be mistaken, I think the odds are heavily on her side, however, and consequences are certainly enormous. If there were only 10% odds that she was right, would you really want to take that sort of chance?  And I think the odds she's right are a good deal higher than that.  Which means it's utterly vital that we avoid Scenario 3, and pretty damn important to avoid Scenario 2 as well.

That is the lens I'll be using to look at the world from now till election night.  Indeed, it's a crystalization of what's been informing my outlook ever since reading her series last year.  It's a big part of why I'm so impatient with the Underpants Gnomes, who seem to persist in thinking there's not really that much difference between the Versailles/Weimar Dems and the growing alliance between corporatist conservatives and their jackbooted thugs.  The Underpants Gnomes may not care much for history.  But history tells us just how wrong they are.

This election matters enormously, not because the Democrats have been all that good--they clearly haven't.  But because this is one of those times where there really is more than an order-of-magnitude difference between the greater and the lesser evil. This time, the difference is between moral and political incompetence, and the possible descent into the pit for a decade or two of pure horror--or, given our nuclear arsenal and end-times theology, possibly much, much worse.

This election is all about beating back the darkness that leads to the abyss.  The day after the election--if we are lucky--we can and must turn our attention to the feckless fools that have allowed us to slip so close to the edge in the first place.


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Digby echoes (4.00 / 2)
They're From The Tea Party And They've Come To take Their Country Back --- to the Dark Ages

[]
Right now all that should matter to any of us is defeating the most radical, authoritarian, anti-intellectual Republican class in modern memory (and that's saying something.) They were thoroughly repudiated at the polls in the last two elections and they haven't learned a thing from those losses. Indeed, the lesson they took was that they hadn't been aggressively wrong enough. Instead of seeing where they went wrong and making adjustments, they've doubled down on their worst policies and are prepared to go even further.

In normal times they wouldn't stand a chance of doing any better than a normal midterm and would probably do worse. But these aren't normal times. The average American is frightened and confused while the rightwing is excited and overstimulated. The toxic combination of Bircherism, big money, xenophobia and social conservatism that defines the Tea Party is happening at a moment of maximum danger.
[]



Oh pleeaze - (0.00 / 0)
not that one Paul - Now I'm also kind of worried about the 'state of affairs' in the homeland - but why are all these funny definisionists -(is there a word like that?) - always forget what's the major ingredient for a truly fascistic soup:
Organisation and Discipline - That's why America never ever would be able to become a 'sucessful Fascistic State' - and even talking about it is so hilarious that you now really have to come to the march for sanity -(or 'the fascists are going to get'ya!)

and I can't stand the Tea party idiots - (0.00 / 0)
but a lot of them are so whacky that they are going to self destruct any minute - and most Americans who now elect these unfunny clowns will regret it in... in
two month? and next time just vote somebody else in -(who didn't have the job before and tells them that he is not really a politician) - and see that's another one of these things which never will work trying to change America into a 'Fascistic State' - the people are just a little bit too moody for that - or in other words you need A LOT of "real Purists" and where do you want to find them in the homeland?  

[ Parent ]
and this from 'Kalifornia" - (0.00 / 0)
 - We once tried there to 'organize' something -(you know the German - 'organized' way - and it was really for a sympathetic common cause! -
Man - was it hard and after no-time everybody was on his own trip again -
there is just too much 'distraction' and if these teaparties would'nt be such a pleasant 'party' for the old white folks to meet eachother - and talk about all kind of things - the majority would stay home and watch Glenn Beck - and sorry
with these type of 'Weicheier" you can NOT form a Fascistic movement!  

[ Parent ]
If You Stopped Talking To Yourself (4.00 / 5)
And listened to someone else every once in a while, you might actually learn something.

The right has always been much better at pulling off these sorts of things, precisely because of their authoritarianism.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
okay - (0.00 / 0)
if it helps to dump the 'Dump Obama Gnomes' my strategy would be - I'm all for it! - "Fascism here it comes"!

[ Parent ]
The Obama Administration is just a symptom (4.00 / 3)
of the problem--the weakness and ignorance of the American people.  (There! I said it.)  Corporate propaganda is ubiquitous and the amount of corporate money almost incomprehensible.  Without strong/decisive progressive leadership, progressives can not improver the situation and we cannot instill in the American people, confidence that the progressive agenda is the best path out of this quagmire.  Americans won't support a true progressive because they no longer even know what that is.  The election of Obama only helped to muddy the waters.

We voted for a guy based on his rhetorical skills and our desire for a symbolic victory against racism.  Obama did have an electoral mandate, but instead of strong leadership we got wishy-washy bipartisanship.  How can you govern in a bipartisan way with fascists? When have fascists ever participated as honest brokers in a democratic process?

With regard to your "head in the sand" comment about lack of organization:  The reason the Rethugs are blocking everything is because they know that if the country descends further into chaos, they can offer "order" and "discipline" and it will resonate with the public.  Fascists foster social and economic chaos because they benefit from it.  You will get all of the "organization" you can stomach once this take over is complete.

Fool.


[ Parent ]
Precisely! (0.00 / 0)
First they sell the disease.

Then they sell you the cure.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
That's what terrorists do (0.00 / 0)
They make a nation ungovernable, then promise to change things and govern the nation if the people will give them the power to do it.

It only works when the government itself is too weak to stop the terrorists. The problem with Obama is that he has demonstrated that very weakness in the face of the party of "No!" much as the Weimer government demonstrated in the face of the Nazis.

Since I don't think Obama gets outside advice from very many people and those people he does get advice from seem paralyzed by group think, I'd say that Sara Robinson's views of the likely future get pretty strong.

What would it take either to break through the Obama bubble of blindness and inaction or to substitute some other force to take action? Is there anything?  


[ Parent ]
so the head is out of the sand = (0.00 / 0)
and a lot of your writing makes sense but about your conclusion - I never will get "all of the "organization" I can stomach" in the US - (if you would talk about Germany that would be something else) -
It's like if Paul would have told me that France is turning into a Fascistic state -
No way - No how!!  

[ Parent ]
I'll grant you (4.00 / 1)
that American fascism will have a different complexion than Germany in the '30s.  It will be "wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."  There won't be any goose stepping but it will be "ready for some football!"  Combine all of the tools of the digital age with the propaganda network of the edutainment system, add in some great new means of surveillance,  torture and killing, we can only imagine the possibilities!  Yes, it will look different, but it is a very real possibility if not a likelihood.

[ Parent ]
perhaps - (0.00 / 0)
but real Fascism has to be 'totalitarian' - People not necessarily have to march in lockstep - but they think in lockstep - and that always will be the major problem for anybody who tries to do 'Fascism' in the US - there is just too much 'rampant' individualism -(a bad thing and a good thing) - So there might be something like the KKK but then you will find every possible opposition to it - and we have to talk about the whole US here - Right?  

[ Parent ]
Individualism? (0.00 / 0)
What individualism?  America is a herd of overweight sheep. (No offense to anyone battling obesity. It's just a reality of our time.)

[ Parent ]
you seem to hang out (0.00 / 0)
- with the wrong people - America is a country of good looking surfers!
(and I even haven't talked about my 'brothers and sisters' yet!)  

[ Parent ]
As Sara Robinson points out (0.00 / 0)
No fascist movement has ever been a majority. But if they get power they will use the totalitarian capabilities of a modern state to enforce their views on the public. A national ID card. Widespread use of closed circuit TV. Censorship of all media. Public arrests of all kinds of groups that can be accused of opposition to them.

They really don't mind if you retreat to your bathroom and grouch. All they demand is public obedience. And they will have a network of spies, many of whom are people they caught and threaten with punishment if they don't spy on relatives and friends. That makes the kinds of sharing of ideas and experiences we are all used to here on the internet impossible because it only takes one spy - or one lie by a personal enemy - to send one of us to Siberia, North Dakota or Alaska. The Argentine Generals worked the same way.

Everyone you know will be marching in lockstep practically overnight, led by militia members who love the position at the front of the troops and who will do or say anything to stay there.  


[ Parent ]
Bipartisanship isn't the problem (0.00 / 0)
if I understand Robert Paxton correctly.  The thing that enables the fascists isn't Obama offering bipartisanship, it is conservative elites utterly rejecting that as an option and instead choosing fascists as allies, legitimizing them.

The key to understanding the dynamics involved is that there is a difference between conservative elites and fascists.  I think that Paxton has functional conservatives able to stand on their own as one of the factors that can prevent the rise of fascists.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both


[ Parent ]
"conservative elites utterly rejecting that as an option and instead choosing fascists as allies, legitimizing them" (4.00 / 1)
I agree and in light this isn't Obama's bipartisanship rather silly and doomed to fail, thereby accelerating the process?

[ Parent ]
there's another way to look at it (0.00 / 0)
which is that his overtures to bipartisanship (however sickeningly genuine) served the function of making clear that the far right is obstructionist.  The argument, then, is that by asking for cooperation, and demonstrating that he is not interested in polarization, he reveals that the conflict is between 'people who want to get things done' and 'people who are ideological.'  And since the most powerful ideological people are rightwing fascists (populists, whatever), you end up with a net gain for the centre and progressives.

This is the argument.  However, what is angering to me is it was badly executed and, more relevantly, not understood as a tactic but genuinely believed in as a value.  

End result - you get crap legislation that doesn't actually go nearly far enough in addressing real needs to the extent that it could have (see the quick hit i have on mark weisbrot's article on the election; it demonstrates exactly how limited the stimulus was).  Which then creates the space for rightwing populists.


[ Parent ]
and "bipartisanship" - (0.00 / 0)
seems to be only a problem under these conditions - and in this country
(where one party isn't 'bipartisan at all) - In a ideal situation -(or a lot of other countries) - it is: A reasonable people coming together for the common good - without being foolishly ideological.

[ Parent ]
Obama's behavior (0.00 / 0)
may well have demonstrated that the far right is obstructionist. But it also demonstrated that the existing government under Obama is too weak to deal with that obstructionism.

That apparent weakness of the government is the more important takeaway from Obama's lack of effective public reaction to the right wing.  


[ Parent ]
yes, quite obviously it is (0.00 / 0)
but thankfully for us, that's not a static reality - the people in office are going to change.

they're never going to do anything for disempowered people for its own sake, but they might eventually learn that they need to for their own.


[ Parent ]
your point about avoiding paranoia is a good one, but there *are* a variety of kinds of fascism (4.00 / 2)
avoiding a guillotine by saying 'that doesn't look like a hangman's noose' is not really practical.  

I don't think a media-hegemonic militarized state with reduced government competency rightwing populist politics tinged with theocracy and violence and deeply entrenched inequality at war with internal and external enemies is the likeliest of all possible scenarios in 30 year.  But it is A scenario and, for me, worth considering, because it's what more or less what we have now and the prospect of that staying that way or increasing raises alarm bells for me.  Whether or not you call what it might lead to 'fascism.'

But like I said below, I think if you try to be careful, you can find good reasons to think that it won't happen, weight them against the good reasons to think it will, and come up with a judgement.  The election, I think, will be useful in helping us figure that out as the piece cited in the post illustrates.


[ Parent ]
I'm Sorry, But I'm Afraid Your Ignorance Is Showing (4.00 / 2)
Robert Paxton is not just some guy. He is one of the leading (if not the leading) scholars of fascism.  His work on the stages of development of fascist movements was key in clearing up a great deal of confusion about fascism that came from jumbling together examples from all different stages. "Organization and Discipline" as you put it are certainly part of the mix, but these are in very short supply in the early stages, and only come to the fore as things progress.

As for the notion that Americans would never sit still for that, you're evidently unaware that many regard the KKK as the first known example of a fascist movement.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
"Organization and Discipline" (0.00 / 0)
are the 'pillars' of EVERY Fascistic movement - at least that's what I learned in a German school -(and they are kind of experts in this unpleasant 'science'!) -
and perhaps Paxton is talking about a new -(a American) - definition of fascism - like the idea that Obama or Bush can be "Hitler" or for some others other just a comedian on U-Tube!
 

[ Parent ]
You Need To Get Out More (0.00 / 0)
Of course organization and discipline are important for a successful, mature fascist movement.  But look at the early NAZI party, and you'll see what a tenuous hold they had in the early stages.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
you mean - (0.00 / 0)
it was 'the Wild West' - Now that could be true - So do you really think that the
(American) Wild West could grow into a 'organized and disciplined' fascist movement?
And isn't that Paxtons question (WARNING?!!
And if it was a question - I would love to answer it. (if I didn't already)
 

[ Parent ]
It's A Complex Process (0.00 / 0)
Like real history usually is.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Now you got me - (0.00 / 0)
'complex' I don't understand -(that always was my problem!) -
So "Complex Fascism here we come"!!!

[ Parent ]
You don't think Goldman Sachs is organized? (4.00 / 4)
You believe the Koch Brothers lack discipline?

You really aren't paying attention.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
Well (0.00 / 0)
I agree with you. But then, I don't think that GWB is an idiot, or that Dik Chainy is crazy, either. That's letting them off WAAAy to easy. People forgive idiots and forget about lunatics. I'd rather people viewed them as war criminals.

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Koch? Goldman Sachs? (0.00 / 0)
all these German names - Now you got me worried -
for a minute! - and then I thought about my brothers and sisters  - 'Hip Hop will rule'!!

[ Parent ]
Good post (0.00 / 0)
This is a real issue.  The most important thing to keep in mind for me is that without the kind of thorough rigorous study of the current situation that usually only emerges after the fact, we're put in the position of trying to make a realistic assessment based on likelihoods, because we honestly can't know.

#2 would put us back into a 'normal' trajectory of the political system realigning with the the last 40 or so years of American political history (progressives would mobilize and corporate elites wouldn't leave the Democratic Party).  #3, as you point out, would put us much closer into a break from that and into a structural change towards fascism, and there are real reasons for thinking this might be the case (most notably the lack of concern of the rightwing of the corporate elites for the sustainability of the american state).  

But weighing everything I've seen / heard, I think we're at #2 mainly based on the fact that I think that many corporate elites are going to stay tacitly or actively supporting the Democratic Party (the Peggy Noonan, David Brooks, Bill Gates type) and there is an emerging non-fascist political movement (see: Jon Stewart).  

This is why I'm (with reservations) not concerned as deeply as you are about this.  But the issue is not going away, even if #2 happens, because that doesn't mean #3 isn't realistics.  


I wish this were just ridiculous paranoia (0.00 / 0)
but after reading Robinson's article, it doesn't strike me as all that far off.

what do you mean by "it" (0.00 / 0)
that's a very important part of robinson's writing that's excerpted.  There are a number of different trajectories things can go, and depending on which one you think is most likely to happen, that's how you have to respond.  Can't just take the worst case one on assumption :)

[ Parent ]
Is there a "means and ends" difference to consider? (0.00 / 0)
Definitions of fascism can vary, but all generally combine the aspect of capitalist control of government with extreme nationalism, theocracy and bigotry.  But can the latter three be viewed as merely means by which the first is accomplished?

If that is the case (e.g. that capitalist control of government is the objective) then a fascist state can be accomplished through other means as well.

The Angle/Reid contest may then depressingly pit different means to same goal.  Angle represents the fire-breathing nationalist theocrat against the smiling friendly face of of Harry Reid's capitalist dominance of government.

This may also represent the classic good cop/bad cop scenario.  If so, supporting the good cop for fear of the bad cop is likely to result in exactly the same thing.

It is also difficult to believe the worst case scenario depicted here without acknowledging the Democratic complicity necessary for such an outcome.  With both the White House and huge majorities in both houses of congress, the Democrats were able to accomplish approximately nothing because, according to the Democrats, of Republican obstructionism.

If that is to be at all believed, then how would the election of all seventy teabaggers (out of 535 legislators) inevitably result in a fascist state? That could only be accomplished with a complete abdication by Democrats of all the checks and balances available to those who control significant minorities in both houses of congress as well as the presidency.

I'd also argue that the teabaggers appear to be opposing mostly Blue Dog type Democrats.  This appears to be a classic set-up of the good cop/bad cop scenario.  It really does take a Sharon Angle to make the religious right economic conservative Harry Reid appear in any way the more liberal choice.

Accepting very conservative Democrats to avoid the bogeyman of the teabaggers could result in a state where capitalist dominance of government (i.e. the fascist objective) is accomplished albeit with a more friendly face. On the other hand, if Blue Dog type democrats lose, the chances for progressive input into the Democratic Party improve.

To return to the Angle/Reid contest, should Sharon Angle win, progressives will be faced with a right-wing nut case voting against any and all progressive proposals.  But progressives will also be able to challenge that nut case six years from now.  Moreover, Sharon angle will have no vote in the Democratic caucus and will not have the power Harry Reid currently does to simply take progressive issues off the table and substitute his own very conservative positions for liberal ones as the designated Senate spokesman of "the left."


This brings up something I'm still trying to (0.00 / 0)
suss out. Does the Tea Party represent an abandonment of the Blue Dogs by the corporate elite? And if so, why?
I don't understand it because I can't see what they might want that the Blue Dogs weren't giving them. The only explanation I can come up with is that Tea Party v. Blue Dogs actually represents a civil war by proxy from within the elite. But I don't know.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Perhaps it simply a means of controlling the debate . . . (0.00 / 0)
. . . and maintaining the illusion of essential differences between the parties on issues (especially economic issues).

How else can the debate be directed toward the right when Harry Reid represents the leftmost side of the debate? If you want to control the debate in the favor of conservative ideals, you need to go into Sharon Angle wacko-land because Reid is already so conservative.

You can't really go more liberal than Reid - that would defeat the purpose - and putting up a Reid clone might emphasize the similarities between the parties and the need for an alternative.

Hence, the Sharon Angle bogeyman. (IMHO)


[ Parent ]
It's not enough to be merely corrupt anymore. They want fanatics in place. (4.00 / 1)
In order to genuinely declare victory, the Corporatists need people in place who are willing to essentially wage war on their own population. This takes a truly fanatical mindset and we see that with the TeaBirchers. Fanaticism reduces the likelihood of a sudden onset of conscience down the road, which might prove problematic in some or several ways.

So merely being corrupt isn't enough anymore. They need True Believers.

"Find out just what people will submit to, and you have found out the exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them; .... The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress. " -- Frederick Douglass


[ Parent ]
This is a good point. (4.00 / 1)
So maybe the Tea Party represents the whole enchilada, what the corporate elite REALLY want in their heart of hearts, full-blown, no-holds-barred fascism. But the Blue Dogs are what they are willing to settle for (proto-fascism).

By backing them both, they are guaranteed to get what they want one way or another?

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
Not exactly (0.00 / 0)
what the corporate elite REALLY want in their heart of hearts, full-blown, no-holds-barred fascism

Fascism is really not a very good way to get the trains to run on time.  Democracy is still the tactic of choice.  But the crisis of capitalism may be too deep for that, and at this point they want to keep their options open.  After all, in 2008, Obama was their tactic of choice.

For the wheel's still in spin And there's no tellin' who That it's namin'. -- Dylan


[ Parent ]
jeff - jeff - (0.00 / 0)
Obama was "the peoples choice"! - Damn you!
(just joking!)

[ Parent ]
People who fly around in Gulfstreams don't care about the trains, do they? (4.00 / 1)
Democracy isn't a tactic. It's a mode of governance--at least in theory. At this point, they've been able to maintain a veneer of plausibility on "democracy," but it would seem our Corporate Overlords are losing patience with that as well.

Why do you suppose the TeaBirchers are so enamored with deleting the 10th and 14th Amendments to the Constitution? The end game for them isn't that far off.

"Find out just what people will submit to, and you have found out the exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them; .... The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress. " -- Frederick Douglass


[ Parent ]
They care about the trains (0.00 / 0)
If the economy  doesn't work, they lose their Gulfstreams.

From their point, it is a tactic, as well as a mode of governance.

For the wheel's still in spin And there's no tellin' who That it's namin'. -- Dylan


[ Parent ]
Um, I think the last 20 years of economic policy refute this claim. (4.00 / 1)
I see your point about their "tactic." All that illustrates, of course, is just how phony the notion of "democracy" is to the ruling elites.

As for their Gulfstreams, while the economy is not only failing, it was intended to fail--at least for the "little people." The Gulfstreams are still very much around, as are their Hamptons villas, mega-yachts and so on.

The great thing about corporatism is that it changes economic relations. As corporations gain power over government, they can stop "making stuff" and simply turn government itself into a rent-extraction device. This, of course, is exactly what we're seeing. The banks literally engineered our economic disaster and instead of jail-time, they get taxpayer subsidies. The entire privatization scam is all about extracting rapacious rents from a powerless population.

If they suffer any real losses, you and I will be there to pick up the tab, lest they have to sell one of their corporate jets.

So no, they couldn't give a rat's ass about the trains, or even commercial aviation. Or the sewer systems. Or food quality. Or homelessness. Or mass unemployment. Or anything else that matters to people who aren't obscenely rich.

They get theirs, regardless. That's the whole point!

"Find out just what people will submit to, and you have found out the exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them; .... The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress. " -- Frederick Douglass


[ Parent ]
Disagree (4.00 / 2)
If one "cared about the trains", why would one set out to destroy the middle class?

Maybe we disagree on the definition of "elite" and/or "trains".

Those in the "Gulfstream" figure that they don't need the stability of the middle and merchantile classes because between horading all the cash and hiring private security they will regain the rightful place of the aristocrat - atop a pile of serfs.

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Jeff, they have no interest in the trains running (0.00 / 0)
on time or otherwise.

The core of the tea partiers is people who fear and resent the way society is changing. Social change is their bete noir because it means nothing but loss to them.

But the organization is based on funds from the extremely wealthy. The ideology of the tea partiers is recycled John Birch material, and the birchers were funded by a cabal of multimillionaires that included especially four Texas oil millionaires who had hated FDR and the New Deal. If you want the names of the millionaires who have joined in with H. L. Hunt and the others, check to see who has been funding the right-wing think tanks like the Heritage Foundation and AEI. Recall the Houston real estate millionaire Bob Perry who funded the Swift Boat attack ads, and look at this season's Koch brothers who are specifically funding much of the organization activities of the tea partiers. Like paying for the Tea Party Express and for the buses that carried people to the rallies. And don't ever forget Rupert Murdoch and FOX and the rest of the right-wing media such as the Washington Times. almost none of that political media makes a profit, but with the think tanks their messages are tightly coordinated.

Then there is Wall Street which wants power and personal wealth, so they are funding as much as they can on K-Street. Big business joins in because they resent the EPA and the limitations on financial activities, and because they fear that Democrats will go after the excessive pay that CEO's are able to get because the CEOs appoint the Boards of Directors who set their pay.

Ultimately it comes down to the rank and file who are afraid of social changes which continue and if anything are speeding up, and the wealthy, Wall Street and the top managers of big business who are taking advantage of the fears of the rank and file - and in fact are stoking those fears.

No one gives a rats ass about making the economy operate more efficiently. It's all about making a buck or using power and skimming money off the flow of other people's funds.  


[ Parent ]
Basically, yes. (0.00 / 0)
If there isn't a fanatic to replace a BD, keep shoveling money at the BD. When a fanatic shows up, dump the BD. Because in the end, they need the fanatics to squash the last vestiges of "democracy."

To me, at least, the TeaBirchers are making the Blue Dogs redundant.  

"Find out just what people will submit to, and you have found out the exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them; .... The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress. " -- Frederick Douglass


[ Parent ]
sorry - (0.00 / 0)
they want 'Dolphins' in place! (copyright Jon Stewart!)

[ Parent ]
well now comes the moment of truth (0.00 / 0)
as progressives we have to decide what we do with the reality that there's more than one kind of corporate politics.  Bill Gates and the Koch brothers are not the same.  As Barack Obama and John Boehner are not the same.

Both not our friends, both doing harm in some/many ways, both forces we want to reduce in influence in the long run, but one is quite clearly far more malevolent in the context of what you're saying and this post.

So I suppose this really comes down to what we think the bulk of corporate opinion/ power, their relationship to the political system, and what we do about it now and on an ongoing basis.  

But I think it's relevant to, let's say, undermphasise the conflict with the Bill Gates type and overemphasise the conflict with the Koch brothers type, as our friends who embrace the Democratic Party often encourage us to do :)  But it also carries strong risks with it, and not everyone is going to take the same position.


[ Parent ]
The major question for the corporate elite (0.00 / 0)
Do you invest in the United States to reinvigorate its industrial/manufacturing economy or do you put your money elsewhere (China, India, Turkey, Russia, etc.)?

If you choose the first answer, you end up a Keynesian (or futher left in terms of statism).  If you choose the second answer, you end up cutting your losses and hope that your gated community will be safe and you and your family can live without a society while your capital is invested outside the U.S. and you press for the tax cuts to be made permanent and the state to basically dissolve in the U.S.

And points in between.

Basically, the question now (and probably over the next decade or two) is: to what extent will the wealthy and corporations be loyal to the American state (nationalistic) and to what extent will they be loyal to their profit incentive / class interests (capitalistic).


[ Parent ]
Sock puppets of a different color? (0.00 / 0)
Used to preserve the illusion of a "Blue" that is opposed to the "Red"?

Or is that too conspiratorial in theory?

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
there is a blue that's opposed to a red (0.00 / 0)
i don't like it, and i think both of their politics are seriously damaging and deluded, but only one viscerally scares me and, in my opinion, would actively attempt to destroy everything i care about and possibly me in the process.  

The other one is noxious as well but, in comparison, relatively less harmful- they probably wouldn't hang me though they will send unmanned predator drones to bomb houses where my friends' families might live.  

but sometimes, i think there is the possibility of a genuine difference.


[ Parent ]
There are differences (4.00 / 1)
in theory. But, I fear that the oligarchs and aristocrats have inordinate leverage over the entire system.

That's why I'm down with the "let's engage in cultural hegemonic struggle". I disagree with the position that the "left" has not been engaging this struggle ever since...well, I guess, since humans (or proto-humans) began to recognize themselves in those around them.

I think of it as a two stage setting - course and fine tuning, in the simplest form. The Dems and GOPpers differ in their fine setting, but money and the rot desire for celebrity brings with it, are pushing their course settings in the same, less just, direction. Its because capital and multi-national corporations drive the "big" global picture, I happen to think so anyway.

So yeah, short term, its a good plan to have less evil governments - at all levels. But long term, we run into that course setting and I'm not sure that reforming the Democrats from within (or from without) will change that very much. I mean, if "we" can actually accomplish success on the cultural front - why think so small as to use that new leverage to help one of the two mainstream parties? Why not change the entire system?


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
You must enter a subject for your comment (0.00 / 0)
So yeah, short term, its a good plan to have less evil governments - at all levels. But long term, we run into that course setting and I'm not sure that reforming the Democrats from within (or from without) will change that very much. I mean, if "we" can actually accomplish success on the cultural front - why think so small as to use that new leverage to help one of the two mainstream parties? Why not change the entire system?

i agree with this completely.


[ Parent ]
How teabagger success leads to a fascist state (4.00 / 2)
Sarah Robinson is using the framework of Robert Paxton's five stages of fascist development.

We're in the third stage, in which fascists gain power.  That comes about as a result of a conservative-fascist alliance.  Paxton wrote, "The only path to power available to fascists passes through cooperation with conservative elites." We have conservatives who are either too willing to work with fascists or too weak to resist them.

Electing a bunch of teabaggers is the first step towards power.  Do you really think there is no chance that this gets followed by a nutjob winning the presidency in 2012?

Paxton's next stage involves the fascists trying to wrest as much power as possible from their non-fascist conservative allies.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both


[ Parent ]
the question is not just which stage we're in but what direction things are headed (4.00 / 2)
I see a lot more anti-fascist critique in popular culture today than I did before the stock market crashed and when 9-11 was much closer in the rearview mirror.

You can see the Tea Party also as the flame out of rightwing populists as the market and mainstream politics turns away from them.  What is more dangrous to me than the idea of them taking power is what they will do over the next 10-15 years to transform american politics, how many ways in which they will be placated to curb their enthusiasm.


[ Parent ]
thank you for that one: (0.00 / 0)
"I see a lot more anti-fascist critique in popular culture today than I did before the stock market crashed and when 9-11 was much closer in the rearview mirror".

Again - there is NO way to control this beast: 'America' -(a 'lovely beast' as such!)


[ Parent ]
Whether it is a flame out (0.00 / 0)
or a step towards gaining power depends a lot on how the Nov 2 election turns out and whether the tea partiers survive as a political force after the election.

A lot of that will depend on whether the government will be strong enough to keep them from overreaching. The major key to a revolution that involves major social change is whether the government is strong enough to stop the revolution.

That's what I have not seen out of the Obama government. Strength of the kind this nation needs to protect itself from being overthrown.  


[ Parent ]
sure political capacity is important (0.00 / 0)
but so too is the economy.  As bad as 10% unemployment is, this is nowhere near wwi russia or interwar germany or anything like it.  You don't have an invasion on your soil or hyperinflation or complete social disorder on the streets and no policing.  And to be fair, that's partly due to the minimal steps that the Obama administration has taken. but partly because this is just a completely different historical scenario.  

I'm all for using history to try to understand the present, but it has to be taken in full.  At best, I think you can say this has the potential to be the beginnings of some kind of fascist movement, and i think the result has more to do with, say, the u.s. china rivalry, the media and its narratives, the kinds of violent acts that are perpetrated in the near future adn what the mainstream reaction is to them, whether social democratic or liberal institutions begin to take root (this already has begun in my opinion) and most importantly, whether the business classes are willing to let the entire country rot and send most of their money elsewhere, even if they have to live here (i.e. are they nationalist/patriotic at all).

rather than a rightwing populist takeover, more worried about the cultural and social changes the rightwing conservatives and their enablers are able to put in place in the next ten years.  You can see some of the really really horiffic consequences in Afghanistan, Iraq, Uganda, and Pakistan, but also in the militarisation of american society, the lack of a left, rollback on civil rights advances for women, lgbt people, people of color, disabled people, how immigrants are treated etc.

i'd also caution against adopting an irrational fear of populism, which is a common trait among the DLC-types.  The tea party politics, at least as represented int he media and in their choices of candidates, are abhorrent, but the idea that ordinary people are intrinsically crazy or violent is a common one that goes back to the people who wrote the constitution and has been very difficult to even begin to overcome.


[ Parent ]
All the more reason (4.00 / 1)
to push Obama to publically and substantively roll-back the unitary executive and the Bush Doctrine of pre-emptive invasion.

Do you really think there is no chance that this gets followed by a nutjob winning the presidency in 2012?


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
One quibble with Robinson (0.00 / 0)
3. Is a rapid political mobilization threatening to escape the control of traditional elites, to the point where they would be tempted to look for tough helpers in order to stay in charge?

She answers this one in the affirmative.  I'm not so sure.  The way I read this scenario is a "strong Left".  And I don't see that.  What would that be?  The Obama election?  We're anything but strong.  We've been easily contained.  The traditional elites are in trouble, but it's not so much from the left as it is from the Tea Party, even as the Tea Party is really backing those elites.  The Tea Party is both the established order and the mobs who are challenging it.

It's almost as though the "traditional elites" are seeing a bogeyman Left and getting spooked by it, even though it's nowhere near strong enough to pose any kind of immediate threat.

Now is this worse or better than the "typical" scenario?

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.


worse or better? (0.00 / 0)
To follow up on my own question, it seems that the traditional elites have made a preemptive strike on a possibly awakening Left that was visible in the Obama election.  That is the meaning of Rahm Emanuel, etc.  This is a far cry from Communist workers mobilizing in the streets as in the 1930s.

Could the elites be as fearful of a ghost as they are of a real threat?

Thus I would say this is something new, not classical Fascism, but possibly worse, or maybe possibly something that can't last.

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.


[ Parent ]
Well, There IS No Classical Fascism In One Sense (4.00 / 1)
Although there are certainly strong patterns.  The KKK is often cited as the first example of modern fascism, and it was pretty different from the German version.  I don't think the differences this time are all that big compared to the similarities.  But I agree that they're important to recognize.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Having spoken to some conservatives (0.00 / 0)
The sort of conservatives who I might call "honest conservatives" who don't like the ignorance and racism they see in the Tea Party crowd and who think that the "Obama is a Muslim" stuff is garbage, they were really, really spooked by health care reform passing.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both

[ Parent ]
I think she meant . . . (0.00 / 0)
 . . . a tough right, not a tough left.

As you point out, republicans -- and democrats -- seek cover by adopting rightist tropes all the time.


[ Parent ]
I think you're wrong (0.00 / 0)
Classical fascism was a response to the growing "Bolshevik threat" and that was the basis of its appeal to the elites.  This is by definition a "tough Left", not a "tough Right".

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.

[ Parent ]
You think . . . (0.00 / 0)
 . . . she's wrong. That's how it is she identifies the political class bringing in tough help -- the tea party. As you say, there's no evidence of that from the left.

[ Parent ]
I think she's wrong (0.00 / 0)
in seeing "a rapid political mobilization threatening to escape the control of traditional elites, to the point where they would be tempted to look for tough helpers" since the "tough helpers" ARE "the rapid political mobilization".  

I'm not sure whether I disagree with you or not.  I'm almost sure she meant "strong Left" for "rapid political mobilization" because that is what the classic political theory that she refers to is talking about.  

But someone is confusing the "fascists" with the threat they are supposedly protecting us from.

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.


[ Parent ]
The Threat Was Us (4.00 / 2)
Even with Obama misleading us into deep confusion and contradiction, the threat of the folks who mobilized behind & around him--an expansion of the Dean forces of 4 years earlier--was something that Versailles had absolutely no tolerance for.

And ACORN???

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Really? (4.00 / 1)
I hope you're right. Because if you are, it's the most encouraging thing I've read in a long time.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Yes, I think that's right (0.00 / 0)
and it's not encouraging.

It is what I suggested.  The elites are scared of anything getting even close to the slippery slope of

"safety net", ie health care insurance reform-> New Dealism -> social democracy -> bolshevism

and may be running to the Tea Party to save them from it.

So we are being treated as though we were a serious threat, even though we're not (at least not yet).

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.


[ Parent ]
But where there's fear, (0.00 / 0)
there's power.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
if we could only figure out how to use it (4.00 / 1)


sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.

[ Parent ]
They need to preempt any notion of plausible alternatives to their way of doing things. (4.00 / 1)
It's not that some mushy "left" really represents a real political threat. It's that they have to constrain people from considering alternatives to Corporatist Rule.

They're simply minding their flanks by keeping the Overton Window as narrowly constrained as possible. It's not like they don't see the polls that show most Americans actually favor progressive positions on a multitude of issues. They do and that understandably irks them.

They're going for the Big One here, so it only makes sense they attack anyone who might pose some kind of threat down the road. That's what it means to be a Totalitarian.

"Find out just what people will submit to, and you have found out the exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them; .... The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress. " -- Frederick Douglass


[ Parent ]
i don't think they see a real threat (0.00 / 0)
if they did, they wouldn't have supported and worked with the administration and wouldn't continue to work within electoral politics.  I see the Tea party more as opportunistic on the part of the far right among the conservative elite (Koch brothers, supporters of Boehner, etc.), and the moderate right and centrist elite are kind of waffling (e.g. supporters of McCain, Obama, Reid, etc.) and the progressive elite, to the extent that it exists is pushing back (E.g. Robert Reich).


[ Parent ]
I think they "perceive" a threat which isn't there (0.00 / 0)
Are we saying the same thing?  I'm not sure.

There is obviously some split in the elites, but aside from the "progressive elite" there is no one there who is willing to take a chance on even tepid New Dealism, for fear of what it might lead to, justified or not.  Some may ultimately come back the other way if the perceive Tea Party fascism to be a greater threat, but when push comes to shove it looks like smacking down any resurgence of New Deal thinking is what they're really about.

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.


[ Parent ]
I think there are two main splits in elite politics (0.00 / 0)
In shorthand, the way I sort of think about it is like this:

There is the reactionary fascist impulse, which spends money mobilizing the Tea Party and other such things (the pro-rich, pro-corporate  people left in the Republican Party like Fox News).

There is the pragmatic / "fiscally conservative, socially liberal" / well-Bush-didn't-work-and-the-tea-party-scares-me-
and-so-does-economic-populism impulse (this is the Democratic establishment to me, including many former Republicans).  

And there is the progressive impulse which has little power right now compared to the first two but the Robert Reich type (progressives just inside or just outside the Democratic Party) and does at least get an audience here and there and more relevantly is allowed to exist.



[ Parent ]
These elements stand out for me . . . (4.00 / 1)
' . . . [turning the corner to fascism] depends on certain relatively precise conditions: the weakness of a liberal state, whose inadequacies condemn the nation to disorder, decline, or humiliation'

and


'economic or constitutional system in a state of blockage apparently insoluble by existing authorities.'

I think the reason the long-view argument re: this election and democrats is such a difficult sell for many is that its been heard before.

The democrats -- and the larger left, it's important to note -- are, as your references point out, in very many ways as responsible for the current instabilities as the right. Their inabilities to adopt and advocate plainly for any left position, their unwillingness to acknowledge the deep corruption of the commonest funding arrangements and to design and maintain effective, sustainable alternative funding models, their refusal to develop and exercise the sheer muscle strength necessary to compete with over the long-term and bring to heel the rightists, and their casual minimization, normalization, and dismissal of rightist, anti-social, and fascist actions advocated and taken in public and private spaces -- all these things are plainly obvious to a large majority of Americans, even if most Americans haven't taken the time to identify and define them precisely -- and they have been obvious for two decades now. This fecklessness on the part of democrats, and the larger left to a lesser degree, not only enables the rightists by its inaction, but entrenches rightist values because they're allowed to go unanswered and unopposed at length.

As your post makes clear, these rightist tendencies are never exterminated in any community or state, only reduced to a level that allows the state to function. Partly for that reason, my points above are the essential sticking points for this slow, meandering descent towards rightist control of the state. And when arguing for engagement in this environment given these variables, it strikes me as a difficult sale, not only for arm-chair politics junkies like OpenLeft readers, but for non-political, non-ideological everyday Americans, in large part because well-meaning and informed advocates like yourself made identical pitches in every electoral contest at least since '94.

So long as this pitch isn't accompanied by a serious, effective, and convincing post-election plan to dislodge the rightists and non-ideological careerists from the democratic party and bring the right to heel, -- and I understand that larger effort isn't the object of this single post -- my sense is the response for deflated liberals and other leftists and the larger non-ideological but hopeful and sometimes desperate American public will be, 'we've heard it all before.'


Not sure the last two groups are identical (4.00 / 1)
I think you're correct about deflated liberals / progressives.  I think the nonideological but hopeful and sometimes desperate American public (I think you mean the middle class here) finds its voice in Jon Stewart rallies, the Obama campaign, etc.  Silent majority and whatnot.  

And they are only JUST beginning to get involved, in long time scales.  And they're not astroturf.


[ Parent ]
Your definition is too limited. (4.00 / 5)
My 63-year-old grandmother is working class, African American -- was solidly middle class for many years, but opted for a lower-paying gig maybe fifteen years ago for the health care coverage. I doubt she'd know who Stewart is if I asked her, and frankly, she'd probably lump him into the same indistinct, 'middle class,' and to her mind, Euro American catch all you do. She voted for the president, partly at my urging, and now practically spits anger when the president is brought up. She detests the fact that he's allowed the republicans to run roughshod over him, hasn't made significant, palpable movement in favor of working class people or African Americans, and mocks her sense that he does more parties and celebrations at the white house than work.

Her daughter, my mother, mid forties African American, middle class to upper middle class, is essentially apolitical, supported the president but criticizes him for allowing himself to be captured by distractions and what she sees as his inability to significantly address large-scale problems.

An associate of mine, late forties to early fifties Euro American woman, retired from finance, and enjoying an upper middle class to upper class retirement, supported the president because she thought he was stronger than any democratic or republican competition, but openly says he's no better than Bush. She thinks small gaffes like his white house military staff flying air force one at low altitude over the city point up basic management ineptitude and suggest larger policy drift.

I know two of these women couldn't care less about Jon Stewart, and I doubt the third watches him. None of them are being mobilized for any rally anywhere anytime. As far as I can tell, their conception of responsible citizenship is conducting their personal affairs responsibly, contributing to the welfare of their families and their communities' affairs where they can, and making deliberative, considered judgments when choosing candidates at ballot time, which means that they essentially always support candidates from center to center left. Despite their disparate lifestyles and income, they share a well-articulated and well-reasoned view that, even though they've lived their lives and conducted their personal affairs seriously and thoughtfully, the democratic politicians they support election after election are too incompetent to conduct affairs of state with the same attention and care.

I share very little sympathy with the view -- not exactly advocated by you, but regularly taken here at OpenLeft --- that the masses of Americans are political no-nothing drones just marching to the beats of their bosses and the latest statist, consumerist drivel flashed across their TVs. They know precisely what's going on and who's to blame, but are too busy managing their own households and working lives to attend anyone's rally or post at OpenLeft. In short, they think their job is to vote well, and that its the job of the politicians they support to do whatever it takes to get the job done. This is where the democrats -- due to policy incompetence, unyielding radical center-right ideology, inability to manage the most basic political horse-trading, congenital fear of their own shadows -- fail time and again, and it is where these women, and many more men and women in my circles, place the blame when discussing the slow, creaking decline of American life.


[ Parent ]
Thanks for this (4.00 / 1)
It's really helpful.  I think this captures what I was trying to say about the silent non-fascist majority much better than I said it:

As far as I can tell, their conception of responsible citizenship is conducting their personal affairs responsibly, contributing to the welfare of their families and their communities' affairs where they can, and making deliberative, considered judgments when choosing candidates at ballot time, which means that they essentially always support candidates from center to center left. Despite their disparate lifestyles and income, they share a well-articulated and well-reasoned view that, even though they've lived their lives and conducted their personal affairs seriously and thoughtfully, the democratic politicians they support election after election are too incompetent to conduct affairs of state with the same attention and care.

This is to me (esp with the second two people you described) the politics of Jon Stewart's half of the rally, although his medium, the demographics of his audience, the nature of the rally etc. are different from the people you mention.  It focuses on a real sense of integrity and lack of stupidity that gets carried into political views.  

Because of who I am, (racially, politically, sexual orientation, social class, where I live and whatever else influences what I consume), that's the vehicle that I am exposed to in seeing a fed-up nonfascist nonideological opinion frustration expressed although I've seen it in other places as well (I also see it in conversations with my mom, coincidentally).  

Point being, there might be other vehicles that are serving the same function for different demographics as Jon Stewart is for me but this is the one I've been exposed to.   But the people are there and the sentiment exists.  That's why I don't think the Tea party is going to 'win', any more than left wing radicals won in the 1970s.

If it were just a couple of comedians / media critics holding an event on the Mall, I wouldn't feel the same way.


[ Parent ]
National renewal based on a basic misunderstanding of actual history (4.00 / 3)
In 2009, I attended a July 4th parade in a small town in Nevada (it's a long story involving rodeo queens).  The young dems had a float in the parade and you've never seen a cleaner cut more wholesome looking group of young Americans in your life.  Along the parade route they were booed and jeered by the tea baggers.  A man standing near me on the parade route saw them, screamed "Obama's a traitor to America!" and literally turned his back to them.  I stood there with my teeth hanging out I was so stunned.  (Don't worry about the young dems lots of folks cheered them on - including me and my family!)  It was the closest I want to be this rural national renewal movement but it told me a lot - in this beautiful desert town, people are suffering financially from a crappy economy and socially as they perceive even in their isolated small town that their values are not simply under assault but actively disappearing.  At the tea bagger rally on the town square later that day (quite literally on a nice little park in the middle of town), the rally goers were upset about loss of jobs, changing social standards and values and looking around for a scapegoat.  Their grandkids are doing drugs and getting knocked up - it must be the fault of socialists in Chicago.  It's weird but true.

One aspect of this yearning for national renewal that alwasy frustrates me is its absolute inability to understand actual history and adoption of bizarre forms of history.  For example, the nonsense of Glenn Beck and his followers reading Cleon Skousen's mad rambling in The 5000 Year Leap and believing it's actual history.  Folks read Skousen's version and reject the work of actual historians.  

I was an American studies major and actual US history is complex and messy but this yearning for renewal talks about history as if it is all Leave it to Beaver and John Wayne.  What they want is not renewal per se but an end to problems.  Lacking either the perspective or education or tools to evaluate the problems, this national renewal movement latches onto a set of myths they believe will solve the problems.


Another excellent post, except ... (4.00 / 2)
It's a big part of why I'm so impatient with the Underpants Gnomes, who seem to persist in thinking there's not really that much difference between the Versailles/Weimar Dems and the growing alliance between corporatist conservatives and their jackbooted thugs.

There are various 3rd party trends on the left.  One of those claims that there is no difference between between the 2 major parties.  I do not, and never have, subscribed to that.  As you do, I consider fascism a serious threat.  You argue that we need to buy time.  I have believed that for decades.  But the question then is, buy time for what?

You have at times implied that my timeline was too short, we have more time for "building 'para-party' structures-meaning multi-issue organizing structures capable of engaging in long-term organizing that builds power independent of existing party structures."  Sounds good.  I support that.  But it's not happening.  So now you up the urgency ante, but where's your plan for upping the "power independent" ante?

When pressed on how to do that, you keep dodging the question.  Well, I would argue that this para-party building is NOT happening, and will not happen by your approach, because where it breaks down is around the "power independent of existing party structures" bit.  Every attempt at building something independent within the Democratic Party is smashed through:

Let's get through this next election
Let's not alienate rich donors
Let's not alienate those organizations key to our coalition who have bought into the game
Let's not damage our candidate's electability
Let's learn to play the game

The essence of Dump Obama to me -- despite the wishes of some who even support it -- is not to push Obama to the left, or even the party to the left, though that would be nice.  It is to build that independent power through utilizing the Democratic presidential primaries.

Paxton's work is impressive.  But I fear that it to some degree confuses cause and effect.  In other words, gaining seats in parliamentary bodies is a reflection of growing fascist power.  You have to concede that fascist organizing made a huge leap forward in RESPONSE to the seeming success of "more and better Democrats."

And where is the anti-fascist force?  Paxton is little light on that.  (Also light on taking into account the role of the economic collapse in driving the elites at the top towards drastic measures.)  Obama, who is announcing that the next 2 years he'll be focusing on the deficit?  Not jobs?  My plan is to focus on a small set of progressive issues -- Jobs (and safety net), peace and civil liberties -- and unite those who will actually fight for them, whether Democrats or independents.  Where is your anti-fascist force coming from?  I contend that with your perspective, it CANNOT!

There is a leadership issue here.  It cannot come into being in the absence of independent leadership.

So you want more of my plan?  Draw one more big line in the sand.  Catfood commission recommendations.  Following the election, any Democrat who supports any recommendation for any cuts in Social Security or our safety net whatsoever, any, becomes Dumpworthy.  Period.  Give 'em one more chance.  Then the hammer comes down, even if it's a very small hammer.  I wish we had more power to build that para-party independent structures, but the fact is that our major power at this point is our power to do them damage.  Negative?  Damn right!  It's worked for the right, it'll work for us up to a point.  And beyond that point?  Depends on how that plays out.  Sorry if that doesn't satisfy you.

But do you really want to put this Dump Obama thing to rest?  Crush it?  Bury it forever?  Then build those para-party structures-meaning multi-issue organizing structures capable of engaging in long-term organizing that builds power independent of existing party structures.  And from reading your own piece, you better do it soon.

Meanwhile, Dump Obama is not holding its breath.

For the wheel's still in spin And there's no tellin' who That it's namin'. -- Dylan


Recommending . . . (4.00 / 2)
for your prognosis, but I agree with others in earlier threads that single-issue organizing is the way to go. Not for Paul Rosenberg's main objection to 'Dump Obama' -- which infantalizes African Americans -- but because continued supporters of the president -- many African Americans among them -- understand, as has been said, the president is a symptom. Dump him, cool -- but last cycle, all the other applicants were worse.

Mobilizing and engaging people for action has to meet them where they are if you ask me. Witness the McMillan tRiTDH Party parodies. One of them made the important point that a big part of the reason McMillan made such a splash isn't that he's funny, but that he's a politician who actually talks about shit people care about. An action plan built around that presumption -- Dixon's anti-imprisonment advocacy is leaps in the right direction but still a bit too heady to my ear -- will draw people in because everyone's hungry for it.


[ Parent ]
never go full fear to GOTV (4.00 / 2)
wow. obviously, this is not the place for me.

"This election is all about beating back the darkness that leads to the abyss.  The day after the election--if we are lucky--we can and must turn our attention to the feckless fools that have allowed us to slip so close to the edge in the first place."

doing the same thing over and over, expecting different results --what's that cliche?



Umm, okay. (0.00 / 0)
Door, ass, I'm sure you know the drill.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
but he has a point (4.00 / 3)
echoed in David's piece at the top of the front page

if we only hold Democrats accountable AFTER the election, what power do progressives actually have to influence their actions?


[ Parent ]
We've had this conversation already. (4.00 / 2)
The Democrats are a backstop. What is your strategy for creating positive change without a backstop?

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Remind me of the plan (4.00 / 3)
to create positive change with the Democratic Party as backstop.


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Here you go: (0.00 / 0)
http://www.americablog.com/201...

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
From the linked article (4.00 / 1)
Primaries, lots of them, until the Democratic party is ours. We'll need an entire party if we expect to go toe-to-toe ourselves. Yes, Obi-wan, it really is our only hope.

Isn't that the basic idea behind "Dump Obama" - to prepare a primary challenge in 2012?


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
No. (4.00 / 2)
"Dump Obama" comes down to splitting our already tattered coalition. Doing our enemies' work for them.

Believe me, I am as fed up with him as anyone, but the fact remains many voters, even self-identified progressives, simply haven't reached this point yet. Sometimes when you are too far ahead of the curve you have to wait for others to catch up with you. It sucks but there it is.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
Party Unity? (4.00 / 1)
I happen to think that the "tattered coalition" was made stronger by the 2007/08 primary campaign.

Without a primary challenge, Obama will have a free hand to keep moving right. When do we challenge him, after he leaves office?


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
No. (4.00 / 1)
Dump Obama is centered on a  primary challenge in 2012.  You may not like it, but don't just make shit up.

For the wheel's still in spin And there's no tellin' who That it's namin'. -- Dylan

[ Parent ]
Primarying Democrats was part of the plan Sadie pointed to (4.00 / 1)
when asked to clarify her plan.

Don't see how challenging Obama in 2012 is any different.

Its up to him to avoid the challenge, any way. He could move to the left and obviate the potential progressive challenge. Hold your breath if you choose.


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Actually, they aren't (0.00 / 0)
You wish they were, I understand.  But if they were a backstop, how come the right has made unprecedented gains UNDER OBAMA?

For the wheel's still in spin And there's no tellin' who That it's namin'. -- Dylan

[ Parent ]
Read Digby. Read Greenwald. (0.00 / 0)
The Right knows how to move the ball down the field whether they hold the White House or not. I don't have time to bring you up to speed.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
A truly excellent point (4.00 / 1)
Yet you seem to insist that the key for progressives is the White House, when I'm suggesting we learn how to "move the ball down the field whether [we] hold the White House or not.

Don't worry, I read Greenwald and Digby, and don't need you to bring me up to speed.

For the wheel's still in spin And there's no tellin' who That it's namin'. -- Dylan


[ Parent ]
Because you see, (4.00 / 1)
the problem is you assume Paul Rosenberg and Sara Robinson are liars, trying to manipulate you in order to GOTV, probably because you have been hanging around too long with a bad crowd.

I would recommend you take some time to familiarize yourself with their work.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
Paul's recent posts have been very "hold your nose" (4.00 / 2)
or, if you prefer, "get in gear"

[ Parent ]
I prefer (4.00 / 1)
"eyes open."

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
And besides (4.00 / 1)
they both have a track record much longer than "recently." They have been concerned with the dangers of the rightwing for a long time, this is not some cynical OFA crap.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
I take Paul's arguments seriously (4.00 / 1)
That's why I wrote a serious response.  You might respond to that.

For the wheel's still in spin And there's no tellin' who That it's namin'. -- Dylan

[ Parent ]
and Jeff - stop making fun - (0.00 / 0)
of us!

[ Parent ]
the final WORD: - (0.00 / 0)
it WILL be the end time election -  - and then 'the terror of humor' will take over -(somebody should write about that) - Comedians -(and NOT Fascists!)  have become the biggest threat to America because they are undermining everything by mocking everything -  and I'm really worried about their bow-down-and-blindly-worship followers who seem to have lost all sense of perspective."
All these  18-to-34-year-olds making fun of idiots, wingnut ignoramuses and Bible thumpers - that will be like 'a red cape waved before the bulls on the right' And I think only only nuanced and seriously written stuff will save us from another Civil war!!
Buh!!
(and there will be only laughter after!)

good lord! (0.00 / 0)
that was the 99th!!!
Buh!

[ Parent ]




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