From Victory to Window to Realignment

by: Chris Bowers

Mon May 26, 2008 at 14:22


Historically speaking, most progressive governance in America seems to happen in short, dense windows that interrupt long runs of either conservative or status quo governance. For example, there was a narrow window in the 1860’s when the southern-less Congress passed a series of amendments that banned slavery and increased civil rights. The early twentieth century, FDR’s first two terms, and the pre-Vietnam Johnson administration were also relatively quick stretches of time that, collectively, account for the majority of the progressive aspects of our government.

All of these time periods seem to follow the same pattern: a thunderous electoral victory is followed by a short time period where a lot of progressive legislation is passed. Jointly, by being the wishes of the majority of the country and by improving the quality of life for the majority of the population, the electoral victory and the legislation cement a policy realignment that is virtually impossible even for an extended period of conservative government to undo.

With this in mind, today, I once again find myself looking at the Democrats vs. McCain map, which takes the best Democratic polling average in each state against McCain, whether Obama or Clinton, and combines it into a single map.



Solid Democrat (10.0%+): 224 electoral votes
Lean Democrat: (4.1%-9.9%): 76 electoral votes
Toss-up: (-4.0% to 4.0%): 92 electoral votes
Lean Republican: (-4.1% to -9.9%): 57 electoral votes
Solid Republican (-10.0% or less): 89 electoral votes

More in the extended entry.  

Chris Bowers :: From Victory to Window to Realignment
Democrats are set to follow-up our smashing 2006 electoral victories in the House, Senate and state level with a second landslide in 2008. The above electoral map is the key toward a thunderous electoral victory that would present us with a two to eight year window of potential progressive governance. That victory, combined with positive legislation that actually improves the quality of life for most Americans, would solidify a progressive governing realignment that would look kind of like this:


The key to pulling this off is two-fold. First, we need to actually achieve the thundering electoral victory. In my mind, Paul has convincingly argued that an Obama-Edwards ticket is the best means of accomplishing this goal. The second step is to avoid a “failed window,” which Matthew Yglesias argues the 1977-1980 and 1993-1994 Democratic trifectas represent. There is always the prospect that, even if we achieve the dominant electoral trifecta, the opportunity is squandered and the legislation necessary to improve the quality of life in America is not passed into law. Moments like these lead to backlash realignments, as we experienced in both the 1980 and 1994 elections. A failure during the progressive window blows an opportunity for an entire generation of progressives.

All of this general historical perspective leads to a timely conclusion: the opportunity we have in 2008 to pull off the big electoral victory, and then in 2009-2010 to pass legislation, is a rare chance for progressives that only seems to come along once in a generation, or every fifteen to twenty years. A progressive legislation window is within our grasp, and we won’t have the opportunity again for a long time. From my point of view, all of this makes the continued pitched battles between Clinton and Obama supporters, in the form of seemingly endless stereotypes and flame wars, really, really stupid. The opportunity we have here is so much bigger, and can potentially last so much longer, than any one person. Much of the problem comes from the campaigns themselves. In addition to the continued negative campaigning against each other, these campaigns, like any candidate-focused campaign, are institutionally designed not for the long-term realignments, but rather for short-term victories based around something resembling a cult of personality.

We can’t get to the smashing electoral victory, the sort of victory that is a precondition for a progressive legislation window, without all of the voters that both Clinton and Obama bring to the table. The sooner we realize that, and the sooner we realize the enormity of the opportunity that we have this year, the better off the party, the movement, and the country will all be.  

');
Tags: , , , (All Tags)
Print Friendly View Send As Email
Waste of Edwards's Talent/Capability (0.00 / 0)
While all of your numbers add up, Paul, and you make a strong case for Edwards as VP, in the long run (i.e., after the election) it would be a horrible waste of his talent and capability.

Wasn’t it John Nance Gardner who said something to the effect that the vice presidency isn’t worth a pitcher of warm piss?  Unless you’ve got a moron for president and can stick your arm up his backside and run the country from the VP’s office the vice presidency is four (or eight) years of attending state funerals of dignitaries who weren’t quite worthy to merit the President.  

On the other hand, John Edwards would make the best attorney general the United States has ever had.  We need an AG who can stand up to the big corporations and prosecute the war profiteers, and there is absolutely nobody on the political scene better qualified to do that than John Edwards.

Let’s not waste him on a dead-end vice presidency.


 
The VP Slot Doesn't HAVE TO Be A Waste (4.00 / 2)
Gore proved this rather effectively during his term, and Cheney has proved it incredibly destructively during his.

We’ve come a long way since Garner’s time, though the example of Dan Quayle certainly shows that we can easily revert.

Would Edwards make a great AG?  From everything I can tell, absolutely.  But is he the only one who could do so?  No, of course not.  And I wouldn’t mind Feingold on the AG-to Supreme Court fast track either, if that’s a consideration.  Otherwise, it’s a bully pulpit for elevating someone we want to add to the ranks of nationally prominent progressive Democrats.

But first things first: We need an overwhelming victory.  One that will overwhelm the media and Versailles in general, not just the GOP.  And Edwards can help deliver that.  Find me another way that has as strong a chance of doing that, and I will reconsider.  But not until then.


[ Parent ]  
Larry Lessig, Anyone? (4.00 / 2)
I forgot to add, as an example of who might be an excellent choice for AG, who would have widespread netroots support.

[ Parent ]  
If that's the guy who does the stuff on copyright (4.00 / 1)
then I would say no to that name.

[ Parent ]  
He is… (4.00 / 1)
…but if you’re not really familiar with his work I’d say give it real consideration. He’s, like, right about a lot of things.

http://www.opensourcecinema.or…

Me | My Work | Future Majority


[ Parent ]  
really? (0.00 / 0)
You should read his book Free Culture.  First of all, it’s one of the most accessible books on law I’ve ever read (and I’m no lawyer).  Second of all, it’s just generally an excellent analysis of the complete take over of cultural ownership that has taken place in the last ten years via new distribution methods on the internet.  While this is currently mostly taking place in music and film domains, it will not stop there.  If you don’t think this affects you then realize you’re only reading this because the internet is still (mostly) neutral.  Anyway, Lessig is rad, read his book (it’s free, if you don’t sell it), but hey, what do I know, I’m just a DFH computer nerd. OSS forever!

Google Bomb John McCain

[ Parent ]  
also (0.00 / 0)
as I realize it wasn’t really in my last post, I think he’d make a great AG.  He’s currently working on reducing the effect of private money in federal elections to change congress, which is a great project (at least in theory, in practice it’s not partisan enough for my taste, but that’s for another day).

Google Bomb John McCain

[ Parent ]  
I don't agree with his position on copyright law (0.00 / 0)
I agree about the extremes of corporate America, but then his solutions as far as artists are concerned especially filmmakers is crap.

[ Parent ]  
I am so pissed off at Spitzer (4.00 / 4)
and actually really glad that the prostitution story broke when it did.

Because he’d have been one of my first suggestions for AG.  And he’d certainly factor into this VP conversation.  There’s one way that Obama’s campaign could have been completely derailed.


[ Parent ]  
Lessig (4.00 / 1)
Lessig is for Supreme Court, not AG.

[ Parent ]  
hmmmm (0.00 / 0)
why not AG then supreme court?  he’s not that old and anyway, I don’t think anyone on the court is out very soon anyway.

Google Bomb John McCain

[ Parent ]  
I'm guessing that it's about temperment (0.00 / 0)
and legal background, both of which I think make SCOTUS more logical than AG. We’re going to need someone who has prosecutorial or at least criminal trial experience, which I’m not sure he has, as well as someone who’s ready for a really nasty fight against the sorts of people and entities who’ve been flagrantly violating the law and hurting the country, and I’m not sure he has this to a sufficient degree. I.e. a tough fighter like Eliot Ness or Robert Jackson, not a policy wonk like Mike Dukakis or Al Gore.

[ Parent ]  
Mondale (4.00 / 3)
Was a big part of Carter’s administration as well.

And wasn’t Ford the one that actually told Nixon the jig was up at a cabinet meeting?

Plus, look at Obama’s personality. He himself has made the point that his managerial style is collaborative. He likes to get input from lots of people. And if Edwards provided a big boost to his candidacy and was a big help in getting him elected, I can’t imagine that he wouldn’t want him to have a very important role in being the 2nd public face of the administration.


[ Parent ]  
I don't know if making AG a politician… (0.00 / 0)
Is the best idea. I’d prefer that it’s somebody with a proven record of enforcing the law.

Someone like Patrick Fitzgerald, for example.  

Jim Esch For Congress


[ Parent ]  
Fitzgerald is a Republican and would be great! (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]  
No, He Is NOT (4.00 / 5)
There’s a long tradition of bipartisan cabinet appointments.  It’s not a shocking new thing to do.  But you don’t put them in the top slots unless they are in the senior ranks, as in “never going to run again”–like Clinton did with William Cohen.

The very top slots are AG, State, and Defense, and all should be solid Dems–preferrably ones whose careers we want to advance.

Now, if we want to make him a special prosecutor to head up criminal investigations into the entire Bush Administration, I might could go for that.


[ Parent ]  
Ditto to Paul! (0.00 / 0)
Fitzgerald would be ideal to head a “Bush administration crimes” section or Task Force. The Bush administration trusted him to investigation and prosecute fairly the Plame case. It is important that any attorney appointed to head a Bush Crimes Task Force be a career prosecutor with no strong ties to partisan Democrats.


[ Parent ]  
Yeah (4.00 / 1)
RFK was just terrible in that post.

[ Parent ]  
Progressive Observers think RFK was outstanding (0.00 / 0)
See particularly Victor Navasky (who was editor of The Nation for many years after he had written this book) in Kennedy Justice was extremely complimentary to RFK’s stewardship of the Justice Department. Editorial review at Amazon.com says:

Nowhere was the clash between idealism and expediency that characterized the Kennedy brothers more apparent during their years in power than at the crossroads of the American legal system, the Department of Justice. This story of how the moral measure of their leadership was most severely tested – how boldly were imperiled liberties championed; how effectively were overlords of corruption prosecuted; how wisely were judges picked; how well, in short, was justice served – has never been told before.

Sen. Pat Leahy was a young lawyer in the Kennedy Justice Department. He tells an inspiring story of an welcoming address by RFK. RFK emphasized that the Justice Department was the nation’s enforcer of justice – without partisan favor, either for his brother’s administration, or against the opponents of JFK’s administration.

I’d be interested in knowing where you got your judgment. You may have had access to more recent information than that available to Navasky, that puts a darker cast on RFK’s administration of the DofJ.  


[ Parent ]  
I think the previous poster was being sarcastic (4.00 / 1)
and saying that a bias against politicians as AG is perhaps not in everyone’s best interest.

[ Parent ]  
You would be correct. (4.00 / 1)
I should have quoted the comment I was responding to to make it clear.

But I thank the respondent for providing the evidence to back up my (too) subtle sarcasm.


[ Parent ]  
With David Iglesias, John McKay and Carol Lam (0.00 / 0)
under him, perhaps? They know where the bodies are buried, are obviously looking to right some wrongs (not personally, but legally, ethically and even karmically), and give every appearance of being fair, principled and honest, regardless of party affiliation.

[ Parent ]  
Obama Powerhouse Ticket (0.00 / 0)
A great way to strengthen Obama’s electibility is to unveil soon after the convention what (a portion of) his administration would look like. This would revolutionize the campaign process, whereby Obama would run across the country not only with his VP, but with members of his cabinet, showcasing leadership and experience. May I suggest an Obama-Webb-Hagel-Edwards-Richardson ticket:

Obama – President
Webb – Vice President
Hagel – Secretary of Defense
Edwards – Attorney General
Richardson – Secretary of State
H. Ford, Jr. – Commerce Secretary

What a powehouse campaign team. The Obama campaign could dispense teams according to demographic strength, Webb and Edwards in the South, Obama and Richardson in the southwest, Obama and Hagel in the midwest, etc. The only problem with this scenerio would be getting potential members of the administration to commit.  


 
Barf (4.00 / 14)
Hagel as Sec Def? Then what was the point of defeating Republicans in the first place?

There are a lot of problems with Webb as VP, too. And keep Harold Ford away from the cabinet.

If we wanted conservatives running the country, then we could just vote for Republicans in the first place.  


[ Parent ]  
Amen! (4.00 / 4)
Enough already with the Jim Webb veep meme, for cryinoutloud!

It’s not only a terrible idea because of his stance on FISA, Telco, etc; but because he would really alienate a lot of women voters from Obama.



[ Parent ]  
Amen ! If theres ONE thing bound to EVEN further rile up (0.00 / 0)
we (the other 17 million?) who are very firmly in the Clinton camp, it is this tossing out of actual certified Republicans as suggested suitable VPs.

Your Republican-style Two Minute Hate tactics, all that hankering for daddy party gravitas we can ascribe to your naivety and inexperiencein campaigns …but this is a certain loser.

John McCain vetoes every Environmental Bill already.


[ Parent ]  
Just curious, (0.00 / 0)
dotcommodity, but as a Hillary supporter what would be your take on an Obama/Wes Clark ticket? Any appeal there at all?

I’d be very curious as to your top say two or three VP choicesassuming Obama wins the nomination.


[ Parent ]  
I don't think it matters if he doesnt select Clinton and graciously (0.00 / 0)
because the state by state polling shows he’s toast against McCain.  But, military guys? The other 17 million of us are not that into military juntas. We like her traditional Democratic domestic policy, help the needy, that stuff.

I mean, Edwards was as good as you get as far as a working class surrogate VP –  and yet KY said um, nope. They are poor (did you see Country Boys on PBS?). They hear her promise to reinstate Americorps funding to Clinton era levels (then half the cost of college). And they know that Obamas YOYO offers like $4000 aint gonna pay diddly to be able to go to college, but true he’d get more support on the other side of the aisle. Specifics work with fine print voters, and theres plenty from her. She is stronger than he is if you count actual people walking into booths, disenfranchised or not, and getting stronger since PA.

She would bring a good many of her 17 million. I would be reassured, because the man needs a minder on Democratic policy on energy. She certainly would not entertain the thought of a Republican VP.

John McCain vetoes every Environmental Bill already.


[ Parent ]  
Why Are You Lying About Obama's Poll Performance? (4.00 / 4)
It’s an incredible stupid tactic to use in the presence of so many who know better.

[ Parent ]  
I am not lying – per electoral-vote.com: (0.00 / 0)
Clinton 327 McCain 194 electoral votes
http://www.electoral-vote.com/…

Obama has not passed 270 since PA. You need 270 to get in. You probably need a cushion 280 to evade Rethug cheating in a GE: only Clinton has had a cushion since then.

John McCain vetoes every Environmental Bill already.


[ Parent ]  
I am not lying – per electoral-vote.com: (0.00 / 0)
Clinton 327 McCain 194 electoral votes
http://www.electoral-vote.com/…

Obama has not passed 270 since PA. You need 270 to get in. You probably need a cushion 280 to evade Rethug cheating in a GE: only Clinton has had a cushion since then.

John McCain vetoes every Environmental Bill already.


[ Parent ]  
current polling (4.00 / 7)
Obama 290, McCain 248, and Obama up 3% nationally.

It’s over for Barack!!  Jump ship now!  


[ Parent ]  
I do not know what polling MyDD uses (0.00 / 0)
for that map. I had not seen MyDD – but notice Clinton is doing far better on that one as well against McCain.

electoral-vote.com has Clinton 327 McCain 194
http://www.electoral-vote.com/…

today, and she has been trouncing McCain since PA (just enter previous date in the browser url), while Obama has not passed McCain in all that time in these ec votes. I am not saying that some nationwide poll might not have him up a few points, I am just looking at how the GE might go. Thats different from nationwide.

Look at how nationwide only 27% say they are Rethugs.

Yet they have stopped us dead in congress. Why? Because they are far over represented in congress because little red states get to send as many flatearthers to congress as huge states fulla Democrats.

Because the electoral system sucks. We have to look at the electoral system to see who is stronger to beat that system.  Clinton can.

John McCain vetoes every Environmental Bill already.


[ Parent ]  
Oh dear (0.00 / 0)
We’re being held hostage by the truth squad! Quick, someone dig up some old Broder pieces about harmony and unity and all that before they go on strike again!

[ Parent ]  
Last I checked (0.00 / 0)
Edwards didn’t campaign in KY for Barack.


[ Parent ]  
This Is A TERRIBLE Implementation of A Very Good Idea (4.00 / 6)
Which maybe indicates that it’s not such a good idea after all.

The infatuation over Webb is a pure illusion.  Sure he was great against Allen.  And he’s a lot better than we could otherwise expect from Virgninia.  But that’s it. He still thinks we could have won in Vietnam, for cryin’ out loud!

And Hagel as SecDef?  What earthly reason is there for that?  If he had shown some independent leadership, maybe.

Well, I can think of one good reason, at least.  He would be better than Ford as Commerce Secretary.  The best place for Harold Ford is the GOP.  He’s already there ideologically.


[ Parent ]  
Hagel for VA (0.00 / 0)
I think he’d be a good fit there. I think.

I have a sneaking suspicion, though, that Obama might be thinking of pulling a Matt Santos and appointing him SoS. Not my choice, but better than DoD.


[ Parent ]  
That ticket wouldn't inact a progressive (4.00 / 10)
legislative agenda. The fact is most of the people you list are conservatives. I applauded Webb winning in Va. I sent him money because it was my home state and he was superior to Allen. But, that doesn’t mean I am under any illusion about him moving the overton window such that progressive reforms and legislation will truly happen. He was the right senator for Virginia, but that doesn’t mean he’s the right leadership for the country. My homestate is extremely, and remains, conservative. The fact is he won in a squeaker. I remember this because I was working late and had to keep going back to Not Larry Saboto biting my nails waiting to see whether we could upseat Senator Macaca. Thinking over your post- it reminds me of the DLC approach to politics. Let’s convince them we really are conservative rather than what Chris is advocating- let’s convince them we are right. Two very different things. I guess it will take winning for a long time before some of you get the picture of what’s being advocated. I am saying this as a moderate. I want to move the country to left of center. That’s not going to happen with the group you describe.

[ Parent ]  
Bingo! (4.00 / 2)
“Let’s convince them we really are conservative rather than what Chris is advocating- let’s convince them we are right.”

Sums up everything wrong with the Democratic Party since 1994.


[ Parent ]  
Hagel for Secretary of Defense (0.00 / 0)
This idea has some appeal.   It makes Obama look like a uniter.   However, Hagel is a pro-life conservative and that is a big problem.    I would rather consider Colin Powell.   If Bush had listened to him (as Secretary of State) we would not be in the trouble we are in today.  

No one’s thinking about this, but Tom Vilsack (former Governor of Iowa) is a strong contender for Secretary of Agriculture and Dick Gepharpt for Secretary of Labor.    We need a Secretary of Labor that is actually pro-labor.  

Seblious may be a contender for HHS.   The Secretary of HHS will be on the front line in the Universal Health Care movement.  



[ Parent ]  
Uniting Is Fine (4.00 / 3)
But you have to unite with the right person.

Speaking of which, Colin Powell?  As in “None of this would have happened if Colin Powell were still alive?”

That Colin Powell?


[ Parent ]  
Disagree about Hagel, Sibelius; agree about Vilsack, Gephardt (4.00 / 1)
What’s so terrible about having a pro-lifer as Sec’y of Defense? Seems like the abortion issue is as relevant to the Sec’y of Defense role as nuclear disarmament is to the Mayor of Minneapolis.

I like Colin Powell for Defense too. However, unless he can publicly share Obama’s position on the war, I don’t see that as a practical possibility.

Vilsack and Gephardt for Ag and Labor would be great.

I don’t care so much for Sibelius as HHS. Unless she’s the VP choice. I think we need her in Kansas to continue the job of building that state party.


[ Parent ]  
Agree that Sibelius is needed in Kansas to turn it Blue. (4.00 / 1)


[ Parent ]  
pro-life doesn't matter (4.00 / 5)
but he is also anti-gay.

It’s past time to end the disaster of DADT. Hagel would block that.

He’d make a great diplomat or ambassador or something. He has fantastic and progressive ideas on Cuba. Why not make him special envoy to Cuba?

If we want some kind of Republican at Defense why not Laurence Korb? He was a deputy secretary of defense under Reagan and I think is still a Republican but also works for Center for American Progress and is a Obama adviser.

Oh and Gephardt is a high rolling corporate lobbyist now. He has sold his soul and convictions for money. He shouldn’t be allowed anywhere near the next Administration in any form.

Vilsack should run for Senate.  


[ Parent ]  
Korb Would Be An EXCELLENT Choice (4.00 / 1)
Dude actually thinks.  Unprecedented in the field.

[ Parent ]  
One of the best security thinkers out there IMO (0.00 / 0)
Another interesting choice would be Gary Hart but he could never be confirmed. He’d be better as Natl Security Adviser.

[ Parent ]  
No Way! (0.00 / 0)
He’s incredibly erratic.  He has some really brilliant insights, and a good deal of common sense where others have none.  But then he also has some just plain nutty ideas, too.

Bottom line: Great to have in the room when you’re brainstorming ideas.

But when you’re weeding them out afterwards, not so much.


[ Parent ]  
Richard Clarke for NSA (4.00 / 1)
Advisor, not the agency (although he might not be a bad fit there too).

[ Parent ]  
A Good Choice (0.00 / 0)
But you might want him in a more public role. He’s an impressive public advocate.

[ Parent ]  
NS Advisor's pretty public, I think (0.00 / 0)
Most people knew of Rice, Berger, Kissinger, Brzezinski, etc., when they were in this role. In any case, he seems to know the field inside out, is committed to national security, was right about 9/11 and Iraq and wasn’t afraid to voice opposition to the chorus of conformity, and is whip smart and clearly principled. I’m sure that there are more than a few others just as qualified, but someone like him would be ideal for the role (plus a nice personal repudiation of the Rice/Cheney/Bush doctrine).

[ Parent ]  
How about Colin Powell (3.20 / 5)
for a seat in the docket at The Hague? Secretary of Defense my ass.

Looking like a unifier is fine, but surely there’s somebody else out other than a man like Colin Powell, who has blood on his hands and a proven track record as a moral coward and a patsy for the NeoCons.  


[ Parent ]  
Gephardt (0.00 / 0)
I think UMW would be angry about Gephardt at this point. He’s a lobbyist for Peabody Coal!!!!!!!!!!

Not that that wouldn’t preclude Obama from picking him. I just think we could find somebody better. Why not an actual union leader like Linda Chavez-Thompson (vice-pres of AFL-CIO and vice-chairman of the DNC).

Vilsack would probably be a good choice for sec. ag but he also has some problems.

Hey, how ’bout we make Evan Bayh Sec. Ag. and get him out of the Senate!

We could do the same thing with Leonard Boswell although I think he’s a little too old for the job.


[ Parent ]  
Unfortunately (4.00 / 2)
I think we need Bayh in the Senate, unless there’s someone else from Indiana who could win a Senate seat handily that I don’t know about.

[ Parent ]  
spur of the moment thought (0.00 / 0)
Yeah it probably wouldn’t work out too well.

Our Democratic majority is pretty precarious in Indiana.  


[ Parent ]  
You could have Mitch Daniels (0.00 / 0)
he could be out as Governer.  He and Bayh aren’t that far apart anyway.

January 2009, America returns from the abyss.

[ Parent ]  
Linda Chavez-Thompson just retired (4.00 / 1)
otherwise she would be a fantastic pick. Maybe we could convince her to come back?

I think Anna Burger who is chair of Change to Win and a top official at SIEU would be a good pick.


[ Parent ]  
They would both be (4.00 / 2)
the anti Elaine Chao. Oh lord we need a Democrat in the whitehouse.


[ Parent ]  
It sucks about environmentally damaging jobs… (0.00 / 0)
Like miners or loggers or anybody who happens to work at a place that pollutes. The reason is because many of these are manufacturing jobs, which at least theoretically go to the middle class union guys we love so much. So of course you will find Democrats who defend a certain anti-environmental practice because it supplies good union wages. Its a shame, I would love to see a larger focus on more high tech environmentally friendly manufacturing jobs that could go to middle-class blue-collar union guys and help with out export deficit.

End this war. Stop John McCain. Cindy McCain is filthy rich.

[ Parent ]  
I agree (0.00 / 0)
But I do think you can do mining in a not too bad way. Of course it requires a LOT more manpower to do it that way. Which of course is why the mine companies are trying to blow up mountains in WV right now. It’s a lot easier and it’s another way to break the union.

But of course the ambivalence comes because coal is such a bad thing to base your whole economy on (in terms of power generation).

I guess the alternative is we need to unionize wal-mart, k-mart and all those tourism jobs in WV. Because when coal goes away, there just ain’t much left that pays a living wage in these areas.  


[ Parent ]  
Hate, hate, hate this idea (4.00 / 6)
Hagel as Sec of Defense?

Just what we need to reinforce — the “Republicans are the only ones good at foreign policy and running the military” meme.

Forget it.  Put real Dems in and stop running the country into the ditch, and try to kill that meme once and for all.  (Tough to do, but you’re never going to do it by “uniting” in this way.)


[ Parent ]  
Colin Powell can never hold high office again – He doesn't have the independence (4.00 / 3)
It is pretty clear from Larry Wilkerson (his top aide) and other sources that Powell knew the available intelligence did not support the misleading presentation to the UN.

Had Powell declined to make the presentation to the UN, and resigned if necessary, he would be worthy of a high office. But he failed the key test of moral courage and moral leadership.


[ Parent ]  
consider Colin Powell??? (0.00 / 0)
You crazy? His lack of judgment on the Iraq war “evidence” can’t be excused. And this wouldn’t go well with the anti-war fraction. A losing proposition.

Besides, let’s be honest, the only argument for him instead of Wes Clark is that Powell is African American. I’m for affirmative action, but it can’t compensate Powell’s shameful support for the warmongers. No way.  


[ Parent ]  
Powerhouse Ticket: Webb or Sherrod Brown possible VPs. (0.00 / 0)
I agree with kcsurles on other suggestions except not sure about H. Ford for Commerce Secretary.  Interested in hearing more justification for that one.

[ Parent ]  
Why Do You Want A CONSERVATIVE VP? (4.00 / 2)
Webb is not a progressive, except in terms of VA politics.  Why do you want him as VP?  What’s the attraction?

And where are we going to get yet another Dem who can win a VA Senate race before we’ve had another 4 years to turn it a good deal bluer?


[ Parent ]  
The only reason really .. (0.00 / 0)
to pick Webb .. is if you are worried about McCain talking about his military service at every turn .. and you are worried about the Appalachia vote .. I’d prefer he stay in the Senate myself

[ Parent ]  
Just LET McCain Talk About The Military At Every Turn (4.00 / 2)
He’s sooo anti-veteran I’d just love every chance to remind folks of that.

[ Parent ]  
I think Webb is fine on Economics (0.00 / 0)
And he may be our most articulate spokesman against the war.

Yes, there are odds and ends of disappointments from Webb. I’m not convinced that he would be the best option for VP.

But ideological purity is the kind of thing that can lose this election.

And after http://takeaction.wordpress.co…

He criticized what he called “the Rubin wing of the Democratic Party,” after Robert E. Rubin, former President Bill Clinton’s Treasury secretary, saying those Democrats share the same problem as many Republicans: “We’re not paying attention to what has happened to basic working people in the country.”

I think Webb would be fine.


[ Parent ]  
You Haven't Been Paying Attention (0.00 / 0)
On FISA, obviously.

He would be a disaster.

In the Senate, where his wrongheadedness is diluted, I can stomach him, as can the vast majority of progressives.

As VP, he would be appalling.


[ Parent ]  
What I don't get is Webb or Brown (4.00 / 1)
I can hardly think of two people with more different policy outlooks within the Democratic party.  

[ Parent ]  
You're Thinking "Coke or Pepsi" (0.00 / 0)
When you should be thinking “Coke or Smack”.


[ Parent ]  
Ever hear of Gov. Tim Kaine (D-VA)? (0.00 / 0)
Paul, I agree completely with tietack. It makes no sense to reject Webb because he has thought the reauthorization of FISA was so important that he preferred to let Dubya have his way on telecom immunity rather than hold up the reauthorization of FISA until spring of 2009. Has Webb been worse than this on FISA?

Webb would be the perfect VP to complement Obama’s effort to start a dialogue on racial anxieties. Webb pointed out last week that working class whites need many of the same things from government that African Americans need, and that a true coalition of these groups would revolutionize American politics. He’s right about that – the Southern power structure has been creating and reinforcing divisions between poor whites and poor blacks ever since Reconstruction. To neutralize that heritage of almost 150 years is a tremendous challenge, but achieving it would be (as my 23-year-old son says) Awesome!

Webb is much better positioned than Edwards in terms of his life experiences to relate to working class and poor whites. Edwards’ adoption of the life style of the super-successful trial lawyer has subtly rejected working class whites; Webb has never done that. Frankly, I think that Webb would reinforce Obama in most of the same ways that you analyzed so cogently in your piece on polling of Edwards as VP.

Webb has also neutralized his stereotypical remarks of 20 or so years ago about the supposed adverse effects of female plebes at Annapolis. His consciousness has been raised considerably in the last 15-20 years.

Webb would also insulate the ticket against charges that the ticket lacks military/foreign policy savvy. Today such charges seem unlikely to hurt Obama very much, but we can’t foresee what new emergencies may develop by election day.

If there is a military confrontation with Iran in October, for example, the Obama-Edwards ticket would be vulnerable to charges that they did not have the experience to take over leadership of the US in the midst of a military confrontation. With Obama-Webb, Webb could speak persuasively to contradict such charges. Plus, Webb is one of the few politicians who would have the cojones to urge Obama to condemn the Bush-Cheney adventurism.

Webb has the self confidence in military matters to condemn an attack on Iran, and the experience to sell that condemnation to voters in the middle of the spectrum, such as the “security moms,” if such a group exists. Edwards does not have enough experience abroad to have the confidence to rally public opinion against such adventurism.

It’s one thing to be presciently critical of a decision to launch a pre-emptive military strike when you are far from having the authority to make the decision.  Both Obama and Edwards have made numerous statements during the campaign that have reinforced the Bush-Cheney rhetoric about the dangers we face from Iran, especially a nuclear-armed Iran. Both Obama and Edwards would be under tremendous pressure from AIPAC to support any military measures that Bush-Cheney take against Iran as the November election nears. I personally think that Webb is the only viable candidate for VP who could resist that pressure. (Hagel’s not viable, as the polls you analyzed showed, and Wesley Clark still has no experience handling himself in a political campaign.)

Paul, are you so venomously opposed to Webb because he is a candidate that may attract a great deal of support from the party leadership, and you don’t like (1) his political history or (2) some of his recent positions?

Webb’s response to the 2007 State of the Union message is the only Democratic Party response that has had any authenticity during the entire Bush administration. Webb threw away the script and talked from the heart about the anxieties of all working people and their families. Webb’s response was a parallel to Obama’s historic speech at the 2004 Democratic Convention. This is the ticket that can inspire both black and white Americans – they could well take 340 Electoral Votes!

Please give Webb more consideration. Try to look at his strengths with an open mind. Particularly in the scenario of a military strike on Iran, Webb has strengths that no one else being mentioned for VP has. Jack Reid is the only other leading Democrat who may have the self-confidence and the cojones to oppose military escalation against Iran, and I don’t know enough about him to tell where he might stand.  


[ Parent ]  
again if the argument (which is Chris's point) is progressive (4.00 / 3)
values then many of your arguments seem out of place. It’s almost like many of you are deaf and blind to think of politics in any other way than as defense.

[ Parent ]  
So, are you saying (0.00 / 0)
that it was excusable for Webb to support the undermining of the civil rights of the citizens of the United States with his FISA vote for political reasons? That he weighed the pros and cons and decided that the lesser of two evils would be to cave in to Bush, his Neocon advisors, and the criminals in the Telecommunications industry who aided in (and profited from) spying on Americans? If so, I’d say that at best this shows poor judgement by Webb and at worst some dangerous political instincts. After all, this isn’t like compromising over a bill on The Bridge to Nowhere. This is the US Constitution we’re talking about here, and call me crazy but I’d like to see someone in the Executive Branch who thinks that’s worth fighting for.

I appreciate your sincere desire to find the winning combo in November,  you heardheaded liberal, and the points you make about Webb and working class and poor whites can’t be ignored. But the fact is that Webb voted with the Republicans at every critical step in this debate, voting “Yea” on the (so called) “Protect America Act”, voting against the Dodd-Feingold amendment, voting against Senator Dodd in his battle over cloture, and voting in favor of the FISA Amendments Act in February.

As for Webb’s political history, OK, maybe serving as Ronald Reagan’s gung-ho Secretary of the Navy shouldn’t automatically disqualify a person from serving as Vice Presidential candidate (and political heir apparent) in a reform minded Democratic Administration, but it’s pretty much two strikes against ’em as far as I’m concerned. Guess I’d like to see Webb prove his mettle as a progressive, or at least a Democrat in a more convincing way than he’s demonstrated so far.

One more thing about Webb’s political history. Those truly ignorant and bigoted comments he made years ago regarding women in the military could definitely come back to haunt him and the ticket in general. It’s unclear just how much of a factor disgruntled women voters are going to be in this election, but it’s equally unclear just how much Webb has “neutralized” the issue if it were to come up again. If nothing else he certainly has some explaining to do to the American public at large, and I’d bet anything that this is on the Obama team’s radar.

Finally, you say:
“Jack Reid is the only other leading Democrat who may have the self-confidence and the cojones to oppose military escalation against Iran”

General Wesley Clark, to name one, has opposed this reckless idea vehemently and publicly for quite some time. See his web site:

StopIranWar.com

or check this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v…

 


[ Parent ]  
You're So Mired In Playing Defense, You Don't Know Anything Else (4.00 / 2)
Nothing’s going to happen with Iran, unless BushCo makes it happen.  And the strongest possible response would be to denounce them for their recklessness.

You don’t need to be a military man to do that.  A high school cheerleader could do it.

The undercurrent of your whole comment just reeks of Chris Matthews man crush.  That’s exactly what we’re trying to get rid of.


[ Parent ]  
Wes Clark for DoD!!! (0.00 / 0)
He’s got the qualification, and the experience. And, like Chris said, what tf is the point in putting a Republican in this position? Even if he’s a likable guy like Hagel.

[ Parent ]  
Harold Ford? Hagel? (0.00 / 0)
Explain why you’d want to promote him?  To try to revive the dying, mostly-irrelevant DLC?

Hagel for Defense?  There’s a much better choice.


[ Parent ]  
Weak Parties (4.00 / 7)
The reason why it is so easy to stop a progressive agenda is that our political system is candidate centered.  Unless, we create institutions that allow individuals to pool their preferences for the duration, it will be difficult to establish anything close to accountability to the people.

The other major democracies achieve popular accountability through strong parties.  That’s why they have health insurance and we don’t.

As an immigrant, I find it amazing with how much the American people are putting up.  Bridges collapse, roads are falling apart, our secondary education system is obsolete, and health insurance that’s only good until you get sick.

We could do a lot better if we could only figure out how to stick together.


 
I am an advocate for turning state delegations (0.00 / 0)
into more of a parlimentary system within the constitutional requirements we already have. Ie, vote slates rather than individual representatives. So, that say if you have multiple parties- 5 percent say in NYC would go to the working family party, 5 to the libs, etc. Then build a coalition once in congress on that rather than on the individual person. I am also an advocate of the idea that we don’t have enough Congress member for the population size that the country is at now versus the size it was at when they came up with this number in the early part fo the last century.  This would decrease the influence of moeny in races and would require greater receptivity to local issues.  

[ Parent ]  
And actually (0.00 / 0)
having a Presidential system, it makes even more sense to have proportional systems of elections than it does in a Parliamentary system–who really cares if one party has a majority in Congress?  They don’t vote no confidence in the government, after all.  

And it is a bit natural to have shifting coalitions passing different pieces of legislation.  Even if you had a fractious party system, it would cause nothing approaching the instability of the old Italian constituion, the French fourth republic or Weimar Germany, because Congress could still function on a piece of legislation-by piece of legislation basis, and the Executive wouldn’t be at all crippled.  

not to mention that if we had single transferable vote and multimember districts, then neither party would be able to play redistricting games.


[ Parent ]  
Off-topic (0.00 / 0)
Where did Natasha’s excellent post go off to?

Was it written in disappearing internet ink? Do you become delusional if compelled to work Memorial Day weekend?

Anyway, wherever you are, elusive Natasha Chart, thanks for the great post. I was interested in seeing the reaction, but, oh well.


 
It will be back up (0.00 / 0)
she wanted to edit it.  

[ Parent ]  
I wish you would let some of us edit our comments which we immediately realized were stupid or mis-articulated. At least a 3 minute window. (4.00 / 1)
I know thats what the preview button is for, but the same applies to diaries in the case of Natasha 😛 (who I love to read btw)

End this war. Stop John McCain. Cindy McCain is filthy rich.

[ Parent ]  
Oh yes please, though why I think I'd write better the second time . .. (0.00 / 0)


Obama The future we have always deserved. I trust Obama to choose a VP

[ Parent ]  
Still want Gore (4.00 / 7)
But you are absolutely right about the brief window of opportunity.  In fact, it is precisely because of that that I want Gore as VP to mobilize opinion and action on global warming, because I think a brief window is all we have in more ways than one.

That does make fixations on Clinton seem trivial.  

I think it is not just that our politics is candidate-centered but it is ego-centered in several senses, that is, both for the candidates and large segments of the electorate.

John McCain–He’s not who you think he is.


 
Edwards and global warming (4.00 / 6)
I forget if you were an Edwards supporter in primary or a Gore hold-out or what, but I think you’d be pleasantly surprised with Edwards as a global warming guy.

He was the first of the three to go for 80% by 2050 and he was the first to go carbon neutral in his campaign. He definitely has pushed the party to the left on this issue (like a lot of others too!), as is witnessed by Obama and Clinton both pledging for 80% by 2050.

There was a time in the campaign last year that Edwards was mentioning global warming in very stark terms in every speech. He gets it and he would push for it. He also got the best reception at the LCV climate change forum last year (with the guy from living on earth hosting). Part of the reason he gets it and why he would be so good at forcing the issue is because he realizes that Exxon and other multi-nationals are the reason why nothing has been done and he has absolutely no problem calling Americans attention to that. That’s why he got the best reception. He very easily linked his campaign theme of big corporations and lobbyists ruining Washington to the theme of inaction on climate change.

One of his biggest assets is he gets that all these issues are inter-related and keeping America from achieving greatness for all its people.    


[ Parent ]  
But Actually (4.00 / 2)
I think that Gore has correctly assessed that he is more effective with a single focus and addressing a worldwide audience.

I do think that he should be tapped in some way, that would still allow him to do this.  But I’m just not sure what that is.


[ Parent ]  
Just thowing this out there (4.00 / 1)
but Ambassador to the UN?  He’d obviously have to talk about a wide range of issues, but at the same time, he could certainly bring up global warming to a very large audience that clearly likes him, and it wouldn’t be as all-encompassing job as, say, SecState would be.

[ Parent ]  
I'm Thinking More Like A Special Ambassador (4.00 / 2)
In fact, “Environmental Ambassador” might not be a bad post to establish on a permanent basis.

[ Parent ]  
Great idea Paul! (0.00 / 0)
The State Department houses a number of Ambassadors at Large. For example, there has often been such an Ambassador for Terrorism issues and negotiations with other governments.

Making Gore an “ambassador at large” for Global Warming and Other Environmental Issues would be excellent – If Gore would accept.


[ Parent ]  
This post really sums things up for me. (4.00 / 8)
And to me, it is why having Edwards is doubly important.  Not only does he likely produce the best chance of winning the election in 2008, but he also creates the best chance of creating the policy pressure on Obama that will actually create actual progressive legislation that will cement the necessary governing coalition.  Obama talks hope and decries cynicism, but nothing causes cynicism like the guy who promises change and fails to do so.  

If we get a trifecta in 2009, we damn well better be sure to deliver the type of policy proposals that the 20-40 crowd wants if we are going to get the younger types believing in the Democrats, especially after the Republicans rebrand themselves in a more classically liberal light.  And I think having Edwards around talking poverty, healthcare and justice is the best way to keep that sort of pressure, both on Obama and on Congress.

I thought the idea of trotting out Al Gore for initiatives was a good use of the Vice Presidency.  I just don’t think that Al Gore, the person, was good as that type of advocate and I didn’t really agree with the proposals that the Clinton Administration sent him out for.  Edwards would be virtually perfect.


 
So True, On So Many Points (4.00 / 2)
I couldn’t agree more with every point you make.  If it were a diary, I’d frontpage it!

In fact, if you want to expand on it in more detail…


[ Parent ]  
Thank you! (0.00 / 0)
if I have some time this afternoon, I may do just that.

[ Parent ]  
Done (0.00 / 0)
here.  I probably expanded on it a bit too much…

[ Parent ]  
I'd like to see (0.00 / 0)
a specific list of policy proposals.  Is there a list that meets the Openleft consensus test?

[ Parent ]  
a manifesto (4.00 / 1)
perhaps?

[ Parent ]  
Obama keeps talking about Team of Rivals. (0.00 / 0)
He’s going to select Republicans and Democrats.  Someone or ones need to work on cleaning up the department of defense and the budgetary process.  Any ideas?

 
The Devil (4.00 / 2)
God himself couldn’t clean up the DOD and the budgetary process.

It’s been unauditable for as long as anyone can remember.  So if God can’t do it, we should go with the Devil.

After all, the Devil is in the details.


[ Parent ]  
Even General-President Dwight D. Eisenhower, one of the few recent Republicans I at least have respect for… (4.00 / 2)
warned against exactly what has gone on in the Pentagon, DOD, and MIC in general.

He saw this crap coming, and as a dedicated military man he was steadfastly opposed. This is a trait almost entirely lost among modern Republicans, and the MIC is most commonly throughout the media associated with “crazy hippies,” “far lefters,” and the often right-wing “tin foil hat” crowd.

End this war. Stop John McCain. Cindy McCain is filthy rich.


[ Parent ]  
team of rivals (4.00 / 1)
“He’s going to select Republicans and Democrats. ”

Glad you have the inside scoop on that.

I wouldn’t doubt that he’ll name a republican to the cabinet. That’s pretty standard practice. Even Bush put Norm Mineta in charge of Transportation. But don’t think it’s a fact just yet that he’s going to put in lots, or even any, republicans in his cabinet.

Team of rivals was talking about rivals within the party anyway. Which is what I took Obama to mean as well.  


[ Parent ]  
Obama will probably (4.00 / 1)
select a Republican to head transportation or some other small department. Republicans have messed up the budget and security enough already.

I think Laurence Korb would be a fantastic choice for Defense and I honestly have no idea about the right person for the budgetary process. I think Clintonite Gene Sperling is the most likely pick but I’m not sure how I feel about that.


[ Parent ]  
Good point (4.00 / 1)
on transportation.

Another reason to put a republican in there is because there are a lot of republicans who favor Democratic positions on transportation for things like Amtrak and public works projects. The Amtrak reauthorization bill (adding something like 14 billion (14 billion!) dollars to Amtrak) is a good example. It passed by voice vote in the transportation committee, and two of its biggest supporters were Bob Mica (R-Florida) and whichever Shuster is currently in office (R-Pork, I mean PA). Now you’d have to be careful about not getting someone in there who wanted to go on a privatization kick, but I think you could find someone.

Shuster’s had union support in PA. He’s not completely anti-worker.

Or hey, even better, why not follow the example of William Cohen and take another moderate republican senator from Maine the transportation sec.? Then we could replace whoever left with a Democrat and have another pick-up in the senate!

Man, can we get this election over with already! I’m ready to start the post-election political machinations.  


[ Parent ]  
I was just thinking that (0.00 / 0)
Snowe isn’t that bad and there is no chance we will be able to beat her. So why not put her in the cabinet? Then we get a Dem in the seat and a only slightly worse cabinet member.

Any other people like that to put in the cabinet?


[ Parent ]  
Why yes there is! (0.00 / 0)
Just look below 🙂

[ Parent ]  
And on Sec. of Ag. (4.00 / 6)
People may not believe me, but I think Chuck Grassley would make an excellent Secretary of Agriculture.

You should see him in the Ag committee meetings. You’d think he was a freaking prairie socialist when he rails against corporate hog farms and talks about the family farmer. He actually is a farmer too. I watched the farm bill mark-up last fall, and Grassley almost to a T, voted the most progressive way possible on every amendment that came up. He was definitely more progressive than people like Blanche Lincoln or Ben Nelson. He also has a long history of working for restitution on the behalf of black farmers who were denied loans from the Ag. Department.

Plus here’s the best part. You appoint him Sec. Ag., and then Chet Culver appoints Vilsack as his replacement in the Senate!

So let’s summarize:
1. Appoint two moderate republicans to your cabinet. They do no harm to policy, have no national future, and in fact will be enthusiastic participants in the administration.

2. By appointing these two you get cred in the public for being ‘bi-partisan’.

3. You also get two new Democratic senators. Add to that new senators in NH, NC, VA, NM, CO, AK, and one from either MS, OR, or MN and you now have 60 Democrats in the Senate.

Axelrod! Are you reading this?  


[ Parent ]  
Smart idea (4.00 / 2)
I don’t know that I’d agree with every stance of his, but I wouldn’t with a Democratic nominee either.

The only problems are

1) Bio-diesel – as an Iowan, I imagine he’s in favour of this, and corn ethanol is a bad idea scientifically and morally right now.
2) Balancing the budget – the best cuts to be made are in defence, but those are also the hardest to pass. If President Obama were to decide to take money from the Ag department instead, would Grassley be likely to revolt and proclaim that Dems didn’t care about rural voters?

Frankly, I doubt those problems are exclusive to Grassley and in 2) at least he might have a hypothetical point.

I say give it a go.

Forgotten Countries – a foreign policy-focused blog


[ Parent ]  
Also (4.00 / 1)
1). This is also Obama’s position, so he’d be right with the administration. Also, just to knock down a canard out there, ethanol is having little to know impact on food prices. Corn that is grown in this country overwhelmingly goes to feed pigs and cattle. Now you could have an ethical argument we shouldn’t be growing a food crop that doesn’t directly feed humans. But that’s a whole other argument. Ethanol isn’t the problem there. Really the main problem with ethanol is that it’s eating up CRP acreage.

2). There really isn’t a whole lot of waste in the Ag. Dept. itself. People hear 300 billion dollars and they think that all that is coming right out of taxpayers pockets in the next year. Well, first of all almost 70% of the farm bill is for nutrition programs. I don’t think that’s the most morally wise thing to cut. Second, since market prices are so high right now, it’s very likely that the farm bill will cost MUCH less than advertised. This has already been the case. The 2002 farm bill came in something like 50 billion dollars under forecasted budget because the counter-cyclical payments never had to be used, because prices are high. It’s a very good program, very Keynesian. You pump money into the farm economy when the market is bad, and you take it out when the market is good.  


[ Parent ]  
Cleaning up the budget mess (0.00 / 0)
Howard Dean.

Look at his record as Governor of Vermont – one of the only states that doesn’t constitutionally require a balanced budget, and hence had an unbalanced budget when he first became Governor.  He did an amazing job of managing the budget, keeping his eye on the long term view, handling competing interests that all had good relationships with him, holding them all to a reality-based view of the numbers, and getting the budget to a healthy sustainable state through both economic boom and bust.

Furthermore, he’s one of the few people who could hold down spending on progressive social programs and still keep the trust of people who want those programs.  His priorities are exactly right: spend more on early childhood services, education, and the environment, the very things that reduce how much we have to spend in later years.


[ Parent ]  
I agree (4.00 / 5)
We are at the right point in the cycle and can’t blow the opportunity.

And that is why I think that Clinton is so critical.

I think she could absolutely win a EC majority and pass some good, progressive legislation. She would get some form of healthcare reform done. Withdraw a good amount of troops from Iraq. Pass some decent energy laws. Stuff like that.

But I don’t think she could take advantage of this opportunity. I think she would probably have a failed window because a lot of the people we need for this realignment are already set against her. Are they set against her for justified reasons? Mostly not. But that’s how they are.

I think a Obama/Edwards ticket offers the best hope because a lot of what we are going to need to do is effectively communicate the vision to the populace. That’s what Clinton failed to do in 93-94. Carter’s presidency went wrong for other reasons. Substance matters and I think Obama, Clinton and Edwards all had a lot of substance but honestly who do you think could best sell progressive ideas to the American public? Barack Obama is probably one of the best orators of our generation. John Edwards is another. They are young and they both know how to fight and in different ways. Obama is a organizer, Edwards is a lawyer.

I was initially heavily in favor of a Obama/Sebelius ticket and I still think it would be a fantastic and progressive ticket and probably the most likely one at that. But if Edwards could be convinced I think a Obama/Edwards Administration could potentially go down in history as one of the best and most progressive in America.

We are at a very important moment in our history. We need to get organized and focused.  


 
the media is against her (0.00 / 0)
but Obama is angering more and more core Democrats.

Their unfavourables/favourables per rasmussen are identical around 50/50, despite what you hear from the punditocracy.
http://www.rasmussenreports.co…

And while bloviators will bloviate, it is actual constituents that push specific congresspeople to vote for this or that legislation.

While the punditocracy loathes Clinton more the Obama unfavorables are growing inside the Democratic core constituencies being left behind in his shiny new coalition.

John McCain vetoes every Environmental Bill already.


[ Parent ]  
which core constituencies? (4.00 / 4)
I think this is rather bogus.   If you look at recent polling from a state that had their primary a long time back (say CA)  Obama seems to consolidating most of HRC’s voters and defeating McCain.  In a big state!  That he lost in the primary!

Google Bomb John McCain

[ Parent ]  
Obama can't get all of Clinton's voters (4.00 / 2)
not because he has a problem with them but because some of them have a problem with black people. See this great breakdown by ThatPoshGirl http://www.dailykos.com/story/…

According to the exit polls, roughly 20% of voters have been admitting race is a factor in their vote, and Clinton has won more of them. This works out to 3-4 million primary voters who won’t vote for a black man. Then consider how many more didn’t admit to or are not even aware of their racism. So a huge chunk of Clinton’s voting base is already lost. This shows how misleading it is to combine their maps against McCain. Obama and Clinton have vastly different constituencies. Merging them just isn’t feasible. The good news is Obama does not need her racist voters, as evidenced by the fact that he beat her and has been consistently polling slightly ahead of McCain.

Of course, slight won’t get us that transformative majority. I think Obama can make a lot of headway with Clinton’s gender voters. She destroyed him among people who voted based on gender but these voters should be almost universally supporting Obama against McCain. Obama and Clinton are going to have to work very hard to ease the resentment of these women and get them thinking about the Supreme Court and women’s issues, if not for them then at least for their (or the) children.

This might lead to putting Clinton on the ticket but I am vehemently opposed. I’m leaning toward Sebelius. She can help heal the gender divide without infecting the ticket with the Clintons’ toxins.


 
Sebelius? (2.00 / 2)
Didn’t you see those polls showing she totally underperforms on the ticket? Only theoretically, she’s a good idea, but obviously she’s lacking the necessary fan base.

And pls stop making racism an issue. About 90% of African Americans voted for Obama. You think that’s because they prefer non-mandatory healthcare? Or because they think a guy who grew up in Hawaii and Indonesia shares their values? Ha!
Really, you Obama supporters are sitting in the glass house on this issue. Drop it.


[ Parent ]  
I am not "making" racism an issue (4.00 / 1)
Reality is making racism an issue. The 20% of Clinton supporters who admit their racism in exit polls made racism an issue. Clinton made racism an issue when she dog-whistled to these voters and proclaimed her support among “hard-working voters – white voters.” You’re certainly free to ignore it and urge others to “drop it” but that won’t change the reality and it won’t stop me from citing that reality when it is pertinent.

African-American support for Clinton is another discussion entirely. This is about the fact that putting Clinton on the ticket won’t bring along all her supporters. But since you brought it up, African Americans supported Clinton by huge margins, sometimes even moreso than whites, all throughout last year. They’ve shifted to Obama over the course of this primary for a variety of reasons (including race-baiting by the Clinton campaign), and no doubt racial solidarity is among them, but African Americans have proven they have no problem voting for white candidates (If they did, Bill Clinton never would’ve been President). The same can’t be said for Clinton’s racist supporters.

Minority groups need solidarity in the fight for equality, which African Americans clearly still do not have. Women don’t have it, either, and so I see nothing wrong with considering Clinton’s gender or Obama’s race a plus when voting. The fact is, the election of either one would be an amazing, wonderful step forward in the history of this country. It’s absurd to compare this kind of thinking to the effort by bigoted white people to advance their stranglehold on power. One side is fighting for equality and the other is fighting for the exact opposite. Ron Rosenbaum just wrote a good piece on this subject attacking the “liberal guilt” meme: www.slate.com/id/2191906/

If you have a problem with oppressed minorities voting in solidarity, then I assume you are troubled by all the millions of votes Clinton has netted over Obama among gender voters, according to the exit polls. Take out the race and gender voters and, according to the exit polls, Obama would’ve won CA and PA and trounced Clinton overall.

As for the VP polls, it’s obvious that name recognition is screwing with the results. I don’t buy the wild fluctuations and I don’t think VP’s need national fan bases. That said, I’m not exactly selling Sebelius. It was just a casual comment. I have serious reservations about all the choices.


[ Parent ]  
Less guesswork, more facts, pls. (0.00 / 0)
“Reality is making racism an issue.”
That’s a point. And in reality, nobody is totally objective. Sure there is racism, even among the most well meaning people, but I still think it serves no good in making this a campaign issue. This sword cuts both ways.

“hard-working voters – white voters.”
It’s a group that is important for the Dems. Is even mentioning them already a racist deed?

“African-American support for Clinton is another discussion entirely.”
Huh? Mentioning “white workers” is racist, but African Americans are “another discussion entirely”? Sry, but I see a double standard here.

“But since you brought it up, African Americans supported Clinton by huge margins, sometimes even moreso than whites, all throughout last year.”
Firstly, “huge margins”? Clinton never even got close to half the African American vote, not even in the very firsat primaries. And would you pls show some data for your statement that her African American support was stronger than the “white” equivalent?

“If you have a problem with oppressed minorities voting in solidarity, then I assume you are troubled by all the millions of votes Clinton has netted over Obama among gender voters, according to the exit polls.”
Did she get close to 90% of the female votes? No way. But that’s not the problem, all I’m saying that making racism a hot topic doesn’t serve the Dems well.


[ Parent ]  
You are correct (4.00 / 1)
that making race a campaign issue of any sort is bad for Obama. That is why he and his campaign try as best they can to avoid it. But I’m not shilling for the campaign, and if we’re going to have an honest evaluation about Clinton’s value to the ticket, her racist contingent must be considered, just as the voters she’d likely bring along must be considered.

“It’s a group that is important for the Dems. Is even mentioning them already a racist deed? ”

Course not, but there is a huge difference when the candidates do it. Imagine if Obama had questioned Clinton’s ability to win African Americans. This could and surely would have been seen as reinforcing, as Obama giving license to them not to support Clinton. In fact, I’m pretty sure something like this would harm Obama more than anything else has. But Clinton can do it because her race is a majority, she doesn’t have to proven her loyalty.

Candidates questioning their opponents ability to win racial demographics injects race into the campaign. It’s polarizing. And any time a bi-racial contest gets racially polarizing, the white person wins. This is to say nothing  of Clinton’s emphasis on “hard-working.” Charlie Rangel harshly criticized her for her comment.

“Huh? Mentioning “white workers” is racist, but African Americans are “another discussion entirely”? Sry, but I see a double standard here.”

I didn’t say it was racist, just that it makes race an issue. Obama’s African-American support was another discussion entirely because it doesn’t apply when discussing Clinton’s value to the ticket, whereas her racist contingent does.

“Firstly, “huge margins”? Clinton never even got close to half the African American vote, not even in the very firsat primaries.”

I said “all throughout last year.” Before any primaries.

” And would you pls show some data for your statement that her African American support was stronger than the “white” equivalent?”

I’d have to find the data. I remember it clearly but not the specific dates and polling outfits. I only have one example off-hand, but it’s not a national poll: on MTP Sunday Russert referenced a South Carolina July poll that showed Clinton running 3 points better among African Americans than overall: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24…

“Did she get close to 90% of the female votes? No way.”

Maybe she would have if women were a 12% minority and sexism was as damaging to women as racism is to African Americans. As it is, she’s still gotten a huge chunk of women and cleaned Obama’s clock among gender voters, while also winning a plurality of race voters.


[ Parent ]  
I guess we wont agree on this… (0.00 / 0)
“if we’re going to have an honest evaluation about Clinton’s value to the ticket, her racist contingent must be considered, just as the voters she’d likely bring along must be considered.”
Well, if this “must be considered”, then it must be considered, too, if Obama’s overwhelming African American support is based on racism. Then it would be only fair to have more of a focus on this. I still don’t think that discussing racism is good for the Dems, but fair is fair.

“Obama’s African-American support was another discussion entirely because it doesn’t apply when discussing Clinton’s value to the ticket, whereas her racist contingent does.”
Uh huh. You say, it should be off topic, in this thread? This sounds quite evasive to me. And it’s no problem making in ontopic – by arguing the other way round (just an example): ‘The racist attitude of many African Americans towards Clinton, as evident in her omly receiving about 10% of the votes of this group, should be no problem if she runs for VP because these voters will support Obama anyhow.’
See? Now it applies. 😀

Ok, like I said, we probably won’t reach any consensus on this. I stand by my opinion that making racism a public issue only hurts the Dem chances.  


[ Parent ]  
I already agreed (0.00 / 0)
that making race an issue hurts Obama. The fact remains that it is relevant to this topic.

“Uh huh. You say, it should be off topic, in this thread? This sounds quite evasive to me.”

If I was trying to be evasive, why did I fully engage you on the topic? All I said is it wasn’t relevant to the question of what Clinton brings to the ticket.

“And it’s no problem making in ontopic – by arguing the other way round (just an example): ‘The racist attitude of many African Americans towards Clinton, as evident in her omly receiving about 10% of the votes of this group, should be no problem if she runs for VP because these voters will support Obama anyhow.’
See? Now it applies. :D”

Yeah, now it does (although in a painfully contrived manner). That’s not what you said before.  


[ Parent ]  
Still the same… (0.00 / 0)
“That’s not what you said before.”
Imho it still is, only phrased in a different way. But, ok, maybe I unconsciously tried to avert further controversy…

[ Parent ]  
problem with your map (2.00 / 2)
is that you assume Nov will be “any Democrat”.

It won’t. It will be the DNC-thumb-on-the-scale-picked sure loser.

If you look at electoral-college.com maps like this that are the sum of specific polls in each state Obama v McCain – you see the stark reality: only Clinton could win the White House easy and has been polling a WH win since PA in the states that… hey – some states actually DO matter more!

http://www.electoral-vote.com/…


John McCain vetoes every Environmental Bill already.


 
um (3.43 / 7)
I’m not sure what your point is since Clinton is not going to be the nominee.

You also seem to realize (based on your sig line) that McCain would be an absolutely horrible president.

So instead of trying to perpetuate a false narrative that hurts the progressive cause, maybe you could use your time and energy to elect the more progressive choice that will be on the ballot in the fall.  


[ Parent ]  
the race is not over (0.00 / 0)
and despite all the calls for the stronger candidate to get out of the way of the weaker one, I will continue to hope for the more progressive candidate, who is doing better. One who will never float a Republican VP.

John McCain vetoes every Environmental Bill already.

[ Parent ]  
It's over barring a Spitzer-level scandal. (4.00 / 1)
What other path does Clinton have to the nomination?  Randomly getting 95% of the votes in the remaining primaries?

[ Parent ]  
Well (4.00 / 3)
ok. I’ll see you on the other side then. I just hope your passion for a progressive movement that improves the lives of all americans (and the entire world) is stronger than your passion for any particular vessel that represents that cause to you.

[ Parent ]  
Of course Clinton polls great (4.00 / 2)
Obama hasn’t been attacking here and nor has John McCain – the former because he wants this to be over, the latter because he wants this to continue.

Her strength in recent state polls is an artefact of recent campaign dynamics, not evidence that she could carry out the realignment herself.

Forgotten Countries – a foreign policy-focused blog


[ Parent ]  
wow (4.00 / 3)
seriously, I nearly troll rated this one.  I second the other replies.  See the LA Times poll I linked to above as well.  The only way your candidate becomes the Democratic nominee at this point is by utterly destroying the party (which she seems to be trying to do anyway).  So quit helping the McCain ’08 effort and wake up to the fact the HRC lost and we need to defeat McCain in November.  Just because we Democrats are so good at losing national elections doesn’t mean we need to.

Google Bomb John McCain

[ Parent ]  
Competing for the job of president is not (0.00 / 0)
destroying the party.

Constantly calling for her to get out is riling up the other 17 million of us. We consider that lack of fair play is what is destroying the party. He began the drumbeat of demands to get out in February.

The last votes are cast June 3, and should continue, because this is a tie. And Superdelegates are then there to break that tie by looking at all the evidence and deciding which is more important in winning the WH and vote their conscience.

And LA times is just one poll. These sites collate multiple state by state polls over time by professionals (Rasmussen SUSA quiniapak) and then assign ec votes to see which is a better bet in November.

John McCain vetoes every Environmental Bill already.


[ Parent ]  
You Are Mistaken About Electoral-vote.com (0.00 / 0)
Just look at North Carolina.  They rate it “weak Dem” for Clinton on the basis of ONE poll–the most recent from SUSA, which she won by 6 points.  But there are 6 previous polls, all of which she lost, by up to 16 points.

You are certainly entitled to your own opinion.  But no one is entitled to their own facts.


[ Parent ]  
"competing" is over (4.00 / 1)
Competing for the job builds the party.  But she lost.  Her only path to the nomination now (now that 95% of pledged delegates have already been voted on) would be to destroy the party.  That’s not merely “competing”.

Note: Lest you make the same faulty association lots of other Clinton supporters seem to make when I point this out, I am not calling on her to drop out.  I am merely saying that, whether she runs in the last few primaries or not, she has lost.  Regardless of whether she keeps running through June 3rd or not, her only path to actually getting the nomination is both very very unlikely, and would destroy Democratic chances for winning in November.


[ Parent ]  
electoral-vote.com is not a good site this year (4.00 / 3)
The Votemaster at that website does not take advantage of pollster.com or 538.com, both websites that aggregate polls to avoid the numbers jumping back and forth all the time.

The Votemaster uses the latest poll numbers, whether the numbers are plausible or not. I emailed him to complain about giving NY to McCain over Obama when one particularly off standard poll showed a small McCain lead in NY. He responded that the poll might be correct. He showed no sense of the importance of error of measurement in the single poll results that he uses to draw his maps from day to day.

I really enjoyed his site in 2004, but 538.com is much better this year. Poblano’s analyses at 538.com are showing both Democrats beating McCain, with Clinton having an easier time of it.

Unfortunately, the only reason that Clinton is having an easier time of it is that so many white voters simply refuse to vote for a black person for President of these United States.

After a full campaign, McCain is likely to look so pathetic that many of these white voters (especially those who are seniors) are likely to stay at home rather than vote for an old man who recruited his senior campaign staff exclusively from lobbyists in spite of saying he won’t pay attention to the special interests; an old man who cannot think on his feet; an old man who may not be able to keep Shi’a and Sunni straight even by the time of the debates in September.

I don’t think that the racialist vote against Obama will ever be persuaded to change sides and support him in any significant numbers. But I do think that the racialist voters can be persuaded to stay home on election day.


[ Parent ]  
Why take the best poll results? (0.00 / 0)

I think taking the “best Democratic polling average in each state” could be dangerously optimistic, or at the very least, unrealistic.

Why aren’t you taking the WORST Democratic polling average in each state?

If you ask me, this is far sillier even than using polls from April and May when one party hasn’t settled on a nominee to predict what might happen in November.


 
He's looking for what the realignment map would look like (4.00 / 1)
what is the best case realistic scenario that we could have, assuming that lots of things go right for Obama, and nothting goes wrong, and barring some major campaign-altering scandal on either side.  If obama wins narrowly, without major Democratic coattails in Congress, we probably get a repeat of the 1994-1997 for Obama’s first term.

[ Parent ]  
and that's not interesting (0.00 / 0)
we’re trying imagine what a realignment is like and how we would engineer one.

[ Parent ]  
no fundamental realignment is gonna happen any time soon (4.00 / 1)
Chris, “realignment” is just not going to happen.

Obama shows no interest in it, congressional Democrats show no interest in it — they could not even summon the guts to impeach the most lawless prez in recent history, or to strangle war funding, or stop warrantless wiretapping, or prevent the appointments to the Supreme Court who everyone knew would kill Roe v Wade, circumvent decades of progress in voting rights and more.

But the biggest reason that “realignment” is a pipe dream is evident when one compares the 1930s, the 1960s, and now.  In both those prior periods, there were independent mass movements not responsible to any candidate pushing the agenda relentlessly leftward.  Where is the formation like that in existence today?  The answer is nowhere, it does not exist.

With no such independent mass-based left wing movements on the push, we are at the mercy of our corporate funded candidates for Congress and president, our Democratic party which as far as funding goes, drinks from the same toilet as Republicans.  


 
interesting… (4.00 / 4)
I was under the impression that an independent, mass-based left wing movement comprised of far flung organizations like MoveOn.org, DailyKos, Huffington Post, MyDD, um, er, Open Left, etc; etc; etc; had raised millions of dollars, helped elect progressive candidates across the country and break the Republican majority in Congress, undermined the Main Stream Media’s stranglehold on the debate on the Iraq war, altered the debate in Congress on Social Security and other issues, and was to a large degree why Barack Obama is about to become the nominee of the Democratic Party.  

[ Parent ]  
All This Is True, But (0.00 / 0)
impeachment is still off the table, and the nation’s political discourse is still upside down.  So there’s a valid point about the weakness of forces compared to what stands in our way.  The problem lies with the fatalism that nothing can change this.  It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[ Parent ]  
But, then again, (0.00 / 0)
in 1931, there was a mass movement demanding things like social security and world war I pensions that was essentially shut out from political discourse.  A movement isn’t enough.  YOu need the wave election too.  

[ Parent ]  
That's Somewhat of An Exaggeration (4.00 / 1)
Social Security wasn’t really on the agenda until 1934.  That’s when both Huey Long’s “Share Our Wealth” movement and the Townsend Plan were launched.

But the WWI pension movement certainly had a lot of support, and there was a great deal of general unrest.  It just wasn’t really well-enough organized to be called a proper movement.  Not like it would become within a few short years.

But all of that is to say that, more fundatmentally, I agree 100% with your underlying point–you need the electoral victory to open the floodgates.


[ Parent ]  
I absolutely agree, Paul… (4.00 / 2)
We’re in a crisis and we aren’t getting the movement we need in our traditional political or media institutions at nearly the rate necessary to avert the crisis from becoming out and out disaster. In fact many of these institutions are to a large degree driving and promoting the crisis.

Of course, as we know, the progressive movements of most recent history, the 1890’s, the 1930’s, the 1960’s, were to a large degree fueled by a combustible combination of crises and idealism.  

It’s laughable that the right wing thinks of FDR and his administration as some kind of Socialist Revolution when in fact it was a last ditch effort by the established institution of electoral politics to salvage a bankrupt American political and economic system. A desperate attempt by the Establishment to save it from itself.

If the New Deal reformist efforts had failed to move America away from the worst effects of the Depression and give some semblance of hope it’s quite possible there would have been large scale political and social upheaval, violence, or even outright revolution in much of the country; and many of the industrialists and bankers who cursed Roosevelt’s name might otherwise have found themselves staring out one night at a crowd armed with pitchforks and torches.  

But crises is often the seed of change, and tends to bring forth adventurous minds and creative solutions. Hopefully some of the necessary ideas and new connections are being developed at the Net Roots level now.


[ Parent ]  
dKos, MoveOn and the rest are NOT a progressive mass movement (4.00 / 2)
Raising millions of dollars is not the test of a mass movement and never was.  Where did that come from?

Movements are mass-based and practically lawless, they operate outside of and in spite of the law.  In the 1930s in NY and Chicago and elsewhere you had thousands of folks evicted whose belongings were set right back into apartments by neighborhood organizations, tens of thousands of workers engaging in illegal strikes and sit-ins, and more.  In the sixties you had similar things.  The Huffington Post and OpenLeft are not bad things, but they are not mass movements either.

And Barack Obama, with his lawyerly evasions about why he hasn’t risked anything to end the war so far, and how fast the troops will be withdrawn, which troops will be withdrawn, how many will stay, has not “altered the debate”.  He has fit himself neatly within it.


[ Parent ]  
plus, when he gets endorsed by the" timid coalition" (4.00 / 1)
as he does, you can be sure he is not the progressive candidate on climate change.

he is endorsed by
Bingaman (feeblest climate plan – like Bush)
Daschle (ethanol lobbyist)
Kennedy (Wind NIMBY)
Byrd (coal advocate)
Dorgan (voted coal to liquids)
etc

His clean energy plan is far less progressive than Clinton’s. Compare the details between the two here:
http://riverdaughter.wordpress…


John McCain vetoes every Environmental Bill already.


[ Parent ]  
The Civil Rights Movement Wasn't "Practically Lawless" (4.00 / 3)
It could never have succeeded if it was.

I have made the same criticism of Obama many times, and am in complete agreement on that score.  But that’s not the point.

All politicians need to be pushed by movements.  Even RFK needed it to stand up against the Vietnam War.  Obama clearly has not been pushed enough.  And much more needs to be done.  But movements come in a wide range of shapes and sizes.  Don’t make your romanticized ideal the enemy of what is.


[ Parent ]  
um… it was pretty lawless where I was (0.00 / 0)
I’m talking Chicago in 65-71.

On June 8, 1965 the Chicago Board of Education filed an injunction filed against numerous civil rights groups in Chicago, to prohibit a boycott by African-American school students protesting segregated, overcrowded schools, the use of trailers as classrooms and other inferior facilities, and the policies of the white school superintendent. The day after the Circuit Court of Cook County granted an injunction against Chicago’s civil rights organizations, civil rights activists filed a petition for removal to bring the controversy before the United States District Court, away from the politically charged county court system. Nevertheless, more than 100,000 African-American students violated the injunction by staying home June 10-11, 1965, to protest the renewal of a four-year contract for Dr. Benjamin Willis, the white school superintendent. The school boycott marked the beginning of a sustained protest movement, the Chicago Freedom Movement of 1965-1966, that culminated in the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr’s arrival in Chicago to lead the struggle for equal opportunities in education and housing.

That was from Education Resources on School Desegregation, http://www.archives.gov/midatl…

On the contrary, movements that respect unjust laws and authorities more than they do their own convictions do not exist for very long, and never succeed.  Gandhi didn’t.  SNCC didn’t.  The folks who organized unions often did not.  And when I was a high school student turning out schools in the winter of 67-68 for the first black history courses in Chicago we were utterly illegal.  When I did tenant and school organizing later in the 70s and 80s we were sometimes inside and sometimes outside the law.  That’s the way grassroots organizing often is, where I come from.

Most of what SNCC did in the south flew very directly in the face of southern and American law at the time.  I don’t see how one can argue that the civil rights movement was entirely  or even mainly law-abiding.  From where I sat, it was pretty much pragmatically indifferent to laws that disagreed with it, unjust laws.  I have no reason to imagine that this was any different for other mass movements, progressive or otherwise.


[ Parent ]  
Civil Disobedience Isn't Lawless (0.00 / 0)
Civil disobedience uses the law in service to morality to undo unjust laws.

As such, truly lawless acts were deeply injurious to the Civil Rights Movement.


[ Parent ]  
You're Misunderstanding The Term "Realignment" (4.00 / 5)
As well as misunderstanding history.

Realignment applies to the forces of instiutional political power, as reflected in the House, Senate and presidency.  What you are talking about is progressive movement, which is not the same thing.  Of course what we want is both. And of course we realize that there are powerful forces against us.  But there was not a strong progressive movement in 1932.  It arose in part as a result of 1932.

So, really, the question is, are you going to sit on the sidelines and throw stones?  Or are you going to get involved in making it happen?


[ Parent ]  
But until we score progressive gains (4.00 / 4)
how can we be assured of it? And until we can be assured of it, why should we even bother to try? And until we bother to try, we can score no progressive gains. See, it’s hopeless, Paul, and there’s no point in even trying. Don’t you get the crystal clear logic here?

Sigh…


[ Parent ]  
so the only way to "get involved" in your book is to dupport a Dem or a Repub (0.00 / 0)
Now isn’t that a little short sighted, Paul?

What if, back in the 60s, the young folks of whom I was one, decided to limit our political imaginations to what Democratic party operatives told us could be accomplished this season?

What they offer —- continued war, for instance, expansion of the military, for example — health care plans tailored to the needs of insurance companies, and forced retirement savings plans that will compel us all to bolster the stock market — are not good enough.  They are not realignment, they are not even solutions.

Why are so many of us acting like they are?  Arguably, I might be throwing rocks at this parade, because the parade is sidelining much of the nation’s political energy away from solutions, not toward them.

Uhhh, and I am not sure you got that right about the lawless in-the-streets progressive movement of the 1930s being a product of the electoral effort of 1932.  Would you say the same about the sixties too?  — that it was the result of the election of 1960 or something?  That’s a bit  farfetched, don’tcha think?


[ Parent ]  
It's Very Unsanitary (4.00 / 1)
to put words in other people’s mouths.

I’ve spent my whole life as an issue activist much more than a party activist.

The difference between you and I is that I don’t despise those who’ve chosen the to put much more of their effort onto the other side of this division.

I don’t throw stones at the people I need to partner with in order to realize the final fruits of what I’m working for.


[ Parent ]  
Then do please forgive my poor hygeine, it was unintentional (0.00 / 0)
You are quite right that it is improper to put one’s own words in the mouths of others.  I am not sure where I did that, but do please forgive me if I did that.

Still, it was you that took issue with my questioning whether there really is any “change” or “realignment” in the presidential and some other electoral choices before us.  You seemed to suggest, do please correct me if I am wrong, that if I did not pick a Repub or a Dem that I am doing nothing — standing on the sidelines throwing stones, or something like that.  

If disagreeing is by definition disagreeable it’s hard for me to plead innocent to throwing stones.  I would differ with you though, on where the real action is, and where the “sidelines” are.  If pointing out that a whole lot of what passes for our electoral discussion constitutes a kind of dead end is some kind of offensive act, that just does not leave much room for disagreement, now does it?

For instance on some African American mailing lists I subscribe to the folks are all in an uproar about the numbers of black bloggers to be credentialed at the Dem convention.  In fact they have, it seems to me, given far more ink and attention to how and whether they are “included” however one defines that, than they do to what the candidate’s and the party’s actual positions are.  In those circles too, I am deemed impolite for asking why.  But I still have to ask.

Lastly, I don’t really know you or your history, and have no reason to imagine you know mine.  I don’t doubt that you’ve done your share in the fields outside of writing or consulting about or in electoral efforts and lobbying, as have I, and do not believe I have said anything to bring your practice into disrepute, dude.  

But shouldn’t there be some room for questioning how the system itself works?  I hope that is not by definition impolite or off limits.  But you’re one of the principals here, not me, so you tell me.  


[ Parent ]  
Just Show Me Where You Think I Said What You Accuse Me Off (4.00 / 1)
That’s all I’m asking.

But you’re right about one thing.  You have no idea who I am, what I’ve done, or what I believe.


[ Parent ]  
2 places. Seems to be a hazard when you don't endorse the nominee (0.00 / 0)
Hmmm.  Re-reading I might be stretching this a little, but two places stand out.

The first is higher up in this thread


So, really, the question is, are you going to sit on the sidelines and throw stones?  Or are you going to get involved in making it happen?

I get that a lot, actually.  I am presumed not “involved” unless I meet the standard of endorsing and working for the Democratic nominee.  

The second is in another thread

…there’s a valid point about the weakness of forces compared to what stands in our way.  The problem lies with the fatalism that nothing can change this.  It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Here my position of questioning the nominee is equated with “fatalism”.  Not the first time I have heard it called that.  Like I said, I get that a lot.  It’s part of the hazard package that goes with not endorsing the nominee.  Guess it doesn’t mean you or whoever slings this is a bad guy, so no hard feelings here.  

But I don’t think the shoe fits, so I ain’t puttin’ it on.  I ain’t no fatalist.  Nor am I uninvolved.


[ Parent ]  
Thank god they didn't (4.00 / 1)
“they could not even summon the guts to impeach the most lawless prez in recent history”

People need to look more than 1/2 a step down the road. Think about how it would have looked if we had just gotten a majority in the house and the first thing we did was (attempt to) impeach the president (who would be leaving in 2 years anyway!) rather than passing our agenda that we had campaigned on?

2 years is a very short time in the scheme of things. It may seem like an eternity in politics, but it still is a very short time. Now we’re down to less than a year before Bush is out. And we’ll have won the presidency legitimately. No “stolen” narratives.  


[ Parent ]  
So on the one hand I sort of agree… (4.00 / 1)
but on the other hand, this reminds me in spirit of the mentality that lead to Nixon getting away with his criminal activity.  I guess it would really be nice to see the rule of law enforced all the way to the top, without regard for political expediency.  But then, that’s clearly a pipe dream.  Remember kids, if you’re going to break the law, break the law from the top (and be white) and then you’ll be able do whatever you want.   Isn’t it great to be in a nation of Men not Laws.  

Google Bomb John McCain

[ Parent ]  
Well (0.00 / 0)
The thing is, we need to have clear-cut evidence of high crimes. Amorphous claims of “cooked the books” on intelligence or “lied us into the war” aren’t going to cut it. Nixon’s downfall came because of the tapes. We don’t have that smoking gun this time.

But again, 6 more months and then all this will be over. We can make it through this without being distracted by a circa 1998 Clinton impeachment sideshow.


[ Parent ]  
So now you haven't passed the legislative aganda, and you have not impeached (0.00 / 0)
In fact, many of the Dems whose elections you celebrate are not going to help you pass anything.  The guy who won in MS the other day is a Blue Dog.  Al Franken, who may win in MN, has never been  for ending the wars in Afghanistan or Iraq.

There is not and never was any legislative agenda, and how could it be otherwise?

Think about who chooses the minority and majority leaders in every legislative body in the nation.  They are actually chosen by corporate campaign dollars.  The one in your state legislature, in the US Senate, or wherever, who can amass the largest war chest and assure the business types that (s)he will use it to reward friends and punish enemies gets to be the majority.minority leader.  That’s how Pelosi got in.

No wonder then, that she squelched impeachment from day one, and preferred to let the war drag on so as not to  take the blame for ending it.  No wonder she and Rahm Emanuel bankrolled pro-war Democrats in primary races against antiwar ones.  These are the types of characters you imagine are going to “realign” us?  Good luck with that.


[ Parent ]  
Jeepers Bruce you arent getting anything right (4.00 / 2)
But keep trying. Here is Al’s Issues page on Iraq

It’s time to start bringing our troops home from Iraq

After leading us into war under false pretenses, the Bush administration has dug us a deep hole in Iraq. The litany of mistakes is endless: the failure to send enough troops, the botched de-Baathification, the refusal to stop looting in the aftermath of the invasion, the firing of the Iraqi army (essentially telling hundreds of thousands of young Iraqi men, “You’re fired, get out of here, we’re not going to pay you, and take your weapons with you!”) – and especially the Republican Congress’s refusal to do any oversight of the war.


http://www.alfranken.com/pages…

Obama The future we have always deserved. I trust Obama to choose a VP

[ Parent ]  
he didn't give an answer that clear cut when asked that question in Atlanta (0.00 / 0)
I was there, it was at the Carter Center.  We got a lawyerly kind of thing about withdrawing some of the troops — the “combat troops” and deploying some others “over the horizon” in nearby Middle Eastern countries and all that.  No mention of the mercs or whatever you call the armed contractors.  I didn’t have my gear out that evening, and didn’t record it, sorry.

If Franken has changed his mind, and is now for actually withdrawing all the troops as quickly as possible, that’s a good thing, and my error.  If he is for keeping a big chunk of them there, then he, like many Dems, is trying to split the baby, much like our Democratic candidate, whose advisors do say — and this has been quoted here at OpenLeft among other places — that withdrawal pledges are contingent on things going well which generally means accomplishment of Bush-Cheney war objectives like passage of a foreigner-friendly oil law.

You are undoubtedly closer to Franken’s stuff than I, so I will defer to you on this.  If he is for a way faster withdrawal than Petreaus and Crocker want then he is a good guy.  If he is not, then he may be part of the problem, as are more than a few Dems.  And the fact that Dems can be part of the problem is not a new concept here at OpenLeft either, though some might call it a “divisive” one.


[ Parent ]  
Some obvious choices (0.00 / 0)
Mike Gravel as VP
Arlen Specter as AG (or Orin Hatch, or Rudy Giuliani)
John McCain as SoS
Joe Lieberman as SoD
Wilford Brimley at HHS
Carly Fiorina at Commerce
Arnold at UN
Lou Dobbs at ICE
Lawrence Kudlow at Treasury
Bill Kristol as spokesman

Why am I not laughing? This might be McCain’s cabinet! (Well, mostly–can be be president and Sos?)


 
Chuck Norris for UN, Arnold as SoS (nt) (0.00 / 0)
no text

[ Parent ]  
There may be a potential "progressive window" (0.00 / 0)
in the offing with the next election, but it is going to remain closed because we are about to plunge off an economic cliff, and this country — very soon — is fgoing to be worrying so much about the failed economy and the price of oil, that there will be little interest in — and no money for — any of the progressive legislation that we might hope to pass.

Soldiers are required to do their jobs when politicians fail to do theirs.

 
Go Tell That To FDR (4.00 / 1)
So he doesn’t waste his time trying to create the New Deal in the midst of the Great Depression.

[ Parent ]  
That's a facile and simplistic response, Paul (0.00 / 0)
Not particularly worthy of you.

The New Deal was a response to the Great Depression; it wasn’t “progressive legislation” that they were trying to pass when the Depression hit.

An awful lot of the current progressive agenda is going to cost money — in some cases, lots of it — and if we’re in the middle of a severe economic downturn — as seems pretty likely — the chances of passing that legislation  diminish significantly.

Yes, we may get a slew of “progressive legislation” passed if (when) we slide into the coming economic downturn, but I would venture to say it will be very different legislation than what is currently on tap.

Soldiers are required to do their jobs when politicians fail to do theirs.


[ Parent ]  
Okay, Then, Tell It To The TVA (0.00 / 0)
Whatever, dude.

[ Parent ]  
I'm blown away (0.00 / 0)
by your insight,

Condescension doesn’t become you.

Or maybe it does,,,

Soldiers are required to do their jobs when politicians fail to do theirs.


[ Parent ]  
But, (4.00 / 2)
Wasn’t there a lot of progressive legislation passed during the Great Depression? Sometimes, economic calamity fuels interest in — and money for — progressive legislation. Of course, it can also fuel a lot of undesirable things as well: xenophobia, extremism, racism, monopolizations of industries. But your contention that economic calamity negates the opportunity for progress is just not born out by history. Furthermore, if the right leadership is in place, it can spawn , as it did with FDR and the New Deal, a generational change in people’s outlooks on the power of government to achieve positive change.

[ Parent ]  
One story most people have never heard. (4.00 / 1)
WWII ended after completely restructuring the economy7 to produce nothing but destruction. All investment was dumped into the sea, blown up over the English channel, or buried under the fields of Belgium. We had a debt bigger than Cheney’s ego, bigger than any debt before or since I think, though Reagan’s debt was bigger in modern dollars than all previous Presidents combined (no wonder the Republicans love him) big, huge debt as percentage of the economy.

OMG the world is going to end debt.

So because the debt was so big, America built millions of new houses for returning soldiers, and put them through college and started a welfare system. The economy has grown massively since then, but the often repeated popular excuse is, we had money then, but not now. JK Galbraith described the period after the VietNam war as the largest transfer of wealth in world history, from the lower and middle classes to the upper class.

We need to change a lot of things, but allowing the very richest 10% to help pay for the restoration of America is among the first.

Obama The future we have always deserved. I trust Obama to choose a VP


[ Parent ]  
Donate to Open Left
PREMIUM AD

ADVERTISEMENTS

');

MENU

OpenLeft in your inbox!

 

Or, subscribe to each author individually.

SEARCH

   

Advanced Search

OPENLEFT VIDEO WALL
Donna Edwards Thanks OpenLeft


Russ Feingold on the New FISA Legislation


Jon Conyers on Impeachment


Al Franken Thanks Blue Majority


FCC Commissioner Michael Copps on Pearl Jam, Net Neutrality


Darcy Burner on the FISA Legislation

More OpenLeft video…