Why say "freeze" when you mean "cap"? The logic of Obama's Benedict Arnold messaging.

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sat Jan 30, 2010 at 10:30


Brad DeLong began his post, Barack Herbert Hoover Obama? thus:

For some time I have been worried about fifty little Herbert Hoovers at the state level. Right now it looks like I have to worry about one big one:
    Jackie Calmes: Obama to Propose Freeze on Some Spending to Trim Deficit: President Obama will call for a three-year freeze in spending on many domestic programs, and for increases no greater than inflation after that, an initiative intended to signal his seriousness about cutting the budget deficit, administration officials said Monday.

Later, he added an update (at the top of his post):

UPDATE An administration source says that he believes that discretionary non-security is not frozen at 2010 ex-stimulus levels for 2011, but is instead bumped up from 2010 to 2011--that the freeze part applies to fiscal 2012, 2013, and 2014.

And then a second one:

UPDATE II: It seems that it is not a freeze in non-security discretionary outlays, but rather an overall cap on non-security discretionary--which is a diffrent animal. And it seems that it is not an overall cap on non-security discretionary outlays, but instead an overall cap on non-security discretionary authority--which is a different animal. And it seems that it is not a binding cap on overall non-security discretionary: that ARRA extensions and other job-boosting deficit-spending measures, plus other "emergencies", are exempt...

These qualifications do not really go to the heart of the matter--that it's stupid to be talking about spending less when the employment side of the worst recession in 70 years is still ongoing--but neither are they trivial.  During the campaign, Obama repeatedly attacked John McCain precisely for advocating an across-the-board freeze, and now he announces the very policy he attacked McCain for-only it's not actually the same thing.  On the face of it, this is just terrible messaging.  

Why not call it what it actually is--an "overall cap"--and avoid giving folks the easy ammo of compilation clips like this?

The basic reason, I'd argue, is that it's squid ink--intended to distract and confuse.  Or like conman patter and the play of confederates in a game of three-card monte.  It's all designed to keep our attention distracted from the really big play--the destruction of the American welfare state, and with it, America's mass middle class.  Like NAFTA before it--a small-time dress rehearsal--it's something the GOP could never pull off.  Only the 21st Century Democrats could destroy what the 20th Century Democrats created.

Paul Rosenberg :: Why say "freeze" when you mean "cap"? The logic of Obama's Benedict Arnold messaging.
One big-picture example of how this works is that it allows Team Obama to point to Jared Bernstein's deplorable performance on Rachel Maddow and argue that he was right, and DFH Maddow didn't know what she was talking about.  Score another one for Team Obama standing up to the left.  Of course it isn't true, because all those qualifications don't alter the fundamental fact that Obama is making the same mistake as FDR did in 1937, or that the Japanese did repeatedly in the "lost decade" of the 1990s.  But it creates a plausible narrative given the abysmal standards of Versailles stenography.

One can see other examples right here in the comment threads at Open Left, as it facilitates the hard core army of Obamabots to make all manner of specious arguments in the blogosphere, as well as activating the "I too, could be a master political consultant" sleeper reflex in folks who otherwise might be susceptible to critical reason.

A few examples from the discussions that occurred late Monday should suffice.  First off, in my Monday night diary, "It's Official: Obama is an idiot",  dwbh   could write:

do you know

any specific discretionary spending that Obama is planning on cutting?

as if the lack of specifics somehow meant something significant that mitigated the central harm of (a) embracing the GOP's pre-1932 message, and (b) delegitimizing the essential policy option of increasing spending counter-cyclically to  deal with continued massive underemployment and the related underperformance of the economy as a whole.

In a related manner, along wrote:

I agree that there's very

little in the discretionary budget. but he promised to do it over and over again. and I think he believes in it. so we shouldn't be surprised that he's proposing it. politically, since it seems (to me at least) that it was a given, there's no point in waiting till after the midterms. lots of good house dems won't like it--and maybe won't abide it--but it could give lots of other moderate and conservadems cover. I don't like that, but maybe it will get them to stick with him on energy, education, etc. maybe even health care.

To which I replied:

It Won't Give ANYONE Cover

That's stupid Versailles Dem consultant talk.

What it does is amplify the GOP's message 100-fold and cut the legs out of down-ticket Dems that want to run as populist progressives based on good old-fashioned Democratic values.
It's literally killing the Democratic Party.

And wobbly very perceptively followed up:

The thing about consultant class thinking  

is it tricks people into thinking they can be the guy giving the advice and, therefore, are just as good as the people who themselves actually have power.

It's kind of similar to why some (and a highly exaggerated number at that) working class people vote Republican. But very much unlike the wishful thinking that motivates so-called "Reagan Democrats," it's actually a fact that a majority of people who can speak in complete sentences would make perfectly capable professional political consultants.

What's so false and insidious about it is it deceives people into believing that what builds broad based political coalitions that win elections over the long term is the right consultant who can come up with a "magic bullet" in the form of a brilliant technocratic strategy driven by the "right message."

And nothing makes a ridiculous political claim more compelling than acting it out as your very own fantasy.  Who cares if it's not true?  It makes you feel powerful, just like a Bushbot member of the 101st Keyboard Brigade.

Moreover, in response to David's diary that preceded mine, dwbh wrote another minimizing comment:

it's not that bad

Entitlements such as health care, medicare/medicaid, etc. will be unaffected. Same for stimulus spending and the upcoming jobs bill. This goes back to his 2008 campaign statements about using targeting cuts in spending (the whole "use a scalpel not a hatchet" argument). However, it's been framed as a "spending freeze" to warm independents and soft Republicans to the idea.

This perfectly reflects the battery of irrelevant messages that Team Obama wants to deploy to distract from what it's doing.  If  dwbh's not getting paid for this, it's criminal.  Of course, the reality is that this adoption of neo-Hooverite messaging is just preparing the way for the really big show--the GOP wet-dream of dismantling the welfare state, as partially previewed in the NYT coverage:

It is the growth in the so-called entitlement programs - Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security - that is the major factor behind projections of unsustainably high deficits, because of rapidly rising health costs and an aging population.

But one administration official said that limiting the much smaller discretionary domestic budget would have symbolic value. That spending includes lawmakers' earmarks for parochial projects, and only when the public believes such perceived waste is being wrung out will they be willing to consider reductions in popular entitlement programs, the official said.

"By helping to create a new atmosphere of fiscal discipline, it can actually also feed into debates over other components of the budget," the official said, briefing reporters on the condition of anonymity.


Of course, it was Obama himself who rightly chided McCain for his obsessive focus on the minutia of earmark reforms during the 2008 campaign, so the contradictions just keep coming.

But in the game Obama is playing, small contradictions are a feature, not a bug.  They're like patter in a game of three-card monte. And the dust-ups they generate are like the byplay of the hustler's confederates pretending to play the game. They distract attention from the real action--the outright betrayal of the 20th Century Democratic Party's most fundamental achievement, the creation of the first mass middle class in the history of the world.  Welcome to Dickensian England, folks, 21st Century American style, brought to you by the Party of Obama.


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Many progressives are stunned when Obama says this. (4.00 / 7)
But if we just keep in mind that he is a hard core Neoliberal ideologue it all makes perfect sense. Many progressives are Keynsian New Dealers (although they wouldn't recognize themselves as such) and think every Democrat is the same. Surprise! Obama played a progressive on the campaign trail but showed his true colors when he named his economic team and hired Rahm Emmanuel.  

"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." - Mark Twain

I am not sure if answering is worthwhile, but here goes. (0.00 / 0)
The point that Rosenburg is making is that making remarks like this, while apparent;ly seeming to make sure that stimulus funds still make new jobs, and green energy programs will cointinue to grow etc etc., and that the House is going to "audit" defense spending, to make "cuts" on contractors, the messaging is stupidly in line with the continuing hegemonic control of the ideation around state tax collection and spending.

But as its merely a repetition of Rham Rham, I am not sure the degree of clarity is necessary.

I am willing to be pelted with theses and postulates if I am misinterpreting Paul.

Change
"We must break up the banks and never again let them get so big that they distort our politics and take down the economy.


[ Parent ]
Okay I think I need a helmet, there will be incoming soon... (0.00 / 0)
The "dismantling of the FDR welfare state is definitively different from merely disparaging Obama's messaging.

lol

I will return after reading the NYT article.

Change
"We must break up the banks and never again let them get so big that they distort our politics and take down the economy.


[ Parent ]
Look, Rahm is a symptom, not the desease (4.00 / 7)
Rahm is a particular problem that has to be addressed at some point but highlighting him only goes to the really deep and pervasive problem we liberals and progressives have with Obama. He wants to work with the system to solve the problems created by the system. Many of knew that the way the insiders keep real reform from happening is to create arcane and complicated processes, especially in the Senate to keep reformer from succeeding. Example: the long, torturous process in the Senate for health care reform that produced an incredibly bad bill. We didn't need 60 votes in the Senate but the Democrats who wanted to kill HCR (and I include Obama in this) were all too happy to pretend that it took 60 votes. Too many people get caught up in these arcane processes thinking that Obama and the Dems have to finesse the system to succeed. As long as anyone buys into that we're going to keep on losing elections because the Democratic Party is perceived (rightly) as being part of the problem and not part of the solution.  

"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." - Mark Twain

[ Parent ]
I dont trust Rham, I dont support his continuing in his job, but (0.00 / 0)
We didn't need 60 votes in the Senate but the Democrats who wanted to kill HCR (and I include Obama in this) were all too happy to pretend that it took 60 votes.

Why is it that we attack the WH for the stupidity of the Senate Democrats? When Baucus fraks up, when Nelson proves to further right than Half the GOP conference, when the a Senate dems let their power be controlled by the republicans.

End the filibuster, primary right wing Senators. This is the rule for governing. Primary as a rule of thumb, everyone, let the people protecting Senators work as hard as we do to get rid of bad Senators.

Change
"We must break up the banks and never again let them get so big that they distort our politics and take down the economy.


[ Parent ]
I think this was explained (4.00 / 7)
"Why is it that we attack the WH for the stupidity of the Senate Democrats?"

Who was it that told Reid to compromise with Lieberman?  It is pretty hard for Senators or Congressman to buck a White House that controls campaign finance.  No where was this more evident than the banishment of Howard Dean.


[ Parent ]
"told him to" --- for christ sakes, its all daddys fault (0.00 / 0)
no other person has any responsibility, no other "actual voting member of congress' is at fault, its all Obama's fault.

The one thing worth criticizing is the one that can't vote, the one person that can't be primaried.

Working for change isn't merely coughing up opinions.

Change
"We must break up the banks and never again let them get so big that they distort our politics and take down the economy.


[ Parent ]
That's not what I'm saying (4.00 / 3)
Those in Congress who didn't stand up to the WH centrist pressure should not only be primaried, but taken out in the fall if necessary.  But it will be hard to stop this until those controlling the purse strings are dealt with.  Which unfortunately means 2012. You and I aren't disagreeing on the end result, only on who is controlling the message.  I think Paul's blog is more about messaging than action. The people of Mass got this right.  The sad thing is that the White House and Congress are trying to disguise what the people of Mass. were saying in hopes that nobody else will say it.

You can't cut off the tail of the snake to keep from being bit.  You and Stoic are arguing over whether we should concentrate on BO or Rahm or the Congress.  I would say all of the above.  Paul, on the other hand, is really just discussing why.


[ Parent ]
"but taken out in the fall if necessary. " (0.00 / 0)
Oh yes lets start losing seats to republicans, that'll show 'em. Yep
The people of Mass got this right.
Oh no they did not. Not even even a little bit.

Holy frakking s---  

Change
"We must break up the banks and never again let them get so big that they distort our politics and take down the economy.


[ Parent ]
Jezzus Chryst! (4.00 / 3)
Why don't we just elect a couple of more Democrats that vote GOP, and oh yeah!  Let's go out and work our ass off for Obama!
How did that work out for Dems?  As long as we have vote for anybody with a D philosophy nothing will change.

It's obvious you don't even have a clue what a significant portion of the working class is saying.  Perhaps the lesson of Mass was over your head, but how about 1980 and 1994?  Did you miss that too?  Working people won't tolerate weak kneed, do nothing, help the rich Democrats.  So let's see how you do without them voting for the Dems.


[ Parent ]
Oh wow, not even attempting to pretend to be a progresive or a dem anymore. (0.00 / 0)
[ Parent ]
This blog is called open left (4.00 / 1)
if it did that, is should change its name.  Also progressive and democrat are not the same.

[ Parent ]
Gee, are you saying only people who agree with you are welcome? (0.00 / 0)
Perhaps all three people left would enjoy that.

[ Parent ]
Look to why your Mr. Who instantly embraced Lieberman.. (4.00 / 4)
Obama is/has been clearly reading from and following line by line the Clinton/Emanuel manual on 'How to Be President for 8 Years".

Don't know if others did, but yesterday I saw a cold and subliminal message to the Left in his face as he warmly encouraged the Right to work with him. (Never has the Left been as warmly spoken to.)
I felt it in the gut just as sure as if his punch came through the screen.
'I'm not with them' is what he clearly implied.

And I now believe it.  We're here trying to find who in the Democratic party is at fault for such a horrendous meltdown, such shitty policies, when all along it was all Obama's doing, using Rahm do do what Rahm does best.
And Rahm did it good too, didn't he?
Obama comes out smelling like a rose and we're more hated than ever.

Good job Rahm!


Nationalism is not the same thing as terrorism, and an adversary is not the same thing as an enemy.


[ Parent ]
Excellent post (4.00 / 4)
Some of these Obamapologist on this site won't have a clue what you're saying.  We can blame the Senate Dems all we want, but until Obama quits working for the corporations and stands up to the centrists and the GOP,  I see no reason to ever hope for meaningful health care or financial reform.  Basically what he was saying at the GOP/Obama lovefest was, "If you don't start working with me I'll have no way to justify enacting your agenda."

[ Parent ]
That is up to you. (4.00 / 5)
We should vote in any manner that will eliminate right wing Dems.  The GOP is a self limiting poison.  They usually manage to do themselves in before they completely destroy the country.  Corporate Dems seem to be able to fool people like you long enough to enact NAFTA and bank deregulation.  The idea of Dems at any cost is at best counter-productive and at worst just plain foolish.  You and I could argue all day, but in the end, we just see the world differently.  My guess is that I have voted for a lot more Dems in my lifetime than you but, going forward, that's irrelevant.  

[ Parent ]
Exactly.. (4.00 / 1)
As a progressive our focus and my agenda is to join with others of a similar mind to enact more progressive policies. The public, when given all the facts, are turning out to be more progressive than centrist.

Our job is to help enact those policies with legislators willing to stand up for our beliefs as surely as Stupak and Ron Paul stand up for theirs.
Unfortunately the Stupaks and Paul's openly admit their views, unlike many on our side who slither from side to side  to avoid speaking the truth.  

Nationalism is not the same thing as terrorism, and an adversary is not the same thing as an enemy.


[ Parent ]
what seems to fit too... (4.00 / 2)
was that this was apparently first put out in a conference call with progressive bloggers. That was very strange, when else has that happened?

It just seems to fit your theory that they wanted this to create confusion and be attacked from the left.  

New Jersey politics at Blue Jersey.


It's Really Hard To Tell (4.00 / 3)
What's the result of conscious decision-making at one particular point in time and what's simply a manifestation of countless past decisions.

I have little doubt, however, that the Obama Administration is much more focused on trying to soothe those to the right, and much less concerned with antagonizing those to the left.

They seem blissful unaware of the fact that the vast majority of people whose votes they depend on lie to their left--and that on basic economic matters, this also applies to tens of millions of voters who've been voting Republican, because the Dems no longer seem like Democrats to them.

As long as you pretend that 2/3rds of the American people are part of the "leftwing fringe" you are bound to piss off--or at best, simply disappoint--an enormous amount of people.

The best thing they've got going for them is public inattention.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Paul, I think you are trying to illuminate a class full of (4.00 / 2)
Special needs political science majors.  When the MSM spin about Friday's Q&A; wears off and the reality sinks in you will see a resurgence of the Reagan Democrats.  The working people view this different than the typical blogger.  If they want a Republican leader, they'll vote Republican.

I think the contempt of this President for the working class was completely apparent in his remark that he'd rather be a good one term president than popular.  Name me all the good one term presidents you can remember.  But he actually believes that someone will buy such a ridiculous assertion.  It is my greatest fear that we have elected a serial liar.


[ Parent ]
This was not a Sister Souljah moment (4.00 / 2)
This is a Sister Souljah presidential term

[ Parent ]
According to the government (4.00 / 2)
we just had meteoric growth in Q4.

Booming, blistering, meteoric growth.

So why do I see middle aged men standing at overpasses in the freezing cold of Chicago with hand-made signs saying

The invisible men (sic) wants to kill has a family...

Booming growth, right?

Why do I see nearly every acre of land for sale in Chicago?

Booming growth, right?

I can tell you that Chicago is the next Detroit.

The Elites do not comprehend what is happening in the actual country.

The laud the phony growth and talk about tinkering with the budget here and there;

Folks, there's a storm a brewin'...


Its real growth (4.00 / 1)
Its just not for us.  Obama's recovery is going to be the same as Bush's; characterized by high corporate profits, a rebound in the stock market, massive growth numbers in China, India, Brazil, etc., high unemployment, falling median wages, and the like.

The only difference is that the deficit is not going to be as big under Obama as it would have been under Bush because Obama is going to let the Bush tax cuts lapse.  So the dollar is going to be even stronger, domestic industry even weaker, and bond holders even wealthier.

As has ever been the case the Democrats are the much smarter of the parties that represent the economic elites.  Obama is going to do little for the poor and lower middle class, but the overall growth numbers after 8 years are going to look great, just like they did for Clinton.  And Obama will be lauded as a hero, which means we are going to have to be dealing with his former staffers as obstacles to real progress for a decade or more after he leaves office, just like we did with Clinton.


[ Parent ]
Growth for the rich (4.00 / 4)
Is short term and doesn't last.  Herbert Hoover's state of the union address in 1930 was filled with statistics.  Funny thing.  Bank deposits rose 5%.  Department store sales fell 7% and production fell up to 20%.  Decoded that meant that demand was falling so companies sold off inventory and the rich banked the profits.  And the economy galloped into the sewer with four straight years with unemployment over 20%.

Until real unemployment gets down to 5% this recession is not over (and that's the full count).  Somebody (I think it was a front pager) said Leo Hindery calculated real unemployment at 19%.  Ladies and gents, those four years are the only years in US history worse than that.

That idiot Republican writer claimed the Depression ended in 1933.  Yeah, sure.  This one is a long way from over.  The quicker we admit that and work on it and forget the temporary gains of the rich the better.  


[ Parent ]
There's Nothing New In This (4.00 / 4)
Check out the Great Depression.  FDR got the GDP turned around in one year, and back to almost pre-Depression levels by 1937--which is a good part of why he foolishly cut back on spending. But employment didn't fully recover until 1942.

The big difference, though:  the stock market didn't fully recover until 1954.

That's the eye-popping difference between now and then.

But, of course, the Dems should always have been focused on jobs above all.  Jobs are always slower to recover, and much more important to people's well-being than the aggregate GDP.

It's one thing to be ideological wankers.  But this is just plain stupid.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Jobs are to industrial man (0.00 / 0)
what water is to agricultural man:

Life.


[ Parent ]
I think this goes back to the Stimulus Bill (4.00 / 3)
He put in 40% tax cuts to stimulate jobs.  Well we've been giving the rich tax cuts for 30 years and how has that helped the working people?  Someday,  someone needs to point out that what tax cuts really do is make it less painful for owners and management to take money out of their business as personal reward.  

[ Parent ]
I think it goes without saying (4.00 / 3)
That progressives do not have a friend in the White House. Indeed, the Neocons can do less damage to the people than the Neolibs because the people know where conservatives are coming from.  While the bloggers at this site are very knowledgeable, the average working class democrat watches 30 minutes or less network news per day, whether they need it or not. It is still troublesome to me that so many who call themselves progressive do not see the longterm cost of allowing these impostor Democrats to stay in office. Thanks to the MSM the average citizen never hears what Paul is saying.  Right now the most important decision for the average American is what beer to buy for their Super Bowl party.  Hopefully, their 65" widescreen won't be repossessed before February 7th.

To me, the Obamapologists are like someone who's home is being foreclosed upon deciding to remodel.  


That's patently untrue (0.00 / 0)
the Neocons can do less damage to the people than the Neolibs because the people know where conservatives are coming from

They can do far more damage, and intend to.


[ Parent ]
If they could get away with it, I'm sure they would. (4.00 / 3)
But how did that go for W?  You're entitled to your opinion but I only see it as weak apologist sympathy.  Which means you and I are far apart as Democrats can be.  If we, as a country, go your way, well good luck with that.

In the mean time, which hurt working people more?  W fighting the war on terrorism or Clinton signing NAFTA and deregulating the banks?  

Perhaps your untruth and mine are different.  Isn't democracy great?


[ Parent ]
Um (4.00 / 2)
Bush was president for 8 years and accomplished every major policy goal he had except for the privatization of social security.  And even that failure was only attempted because of the startling success Bush had during his first term with regards to creating structural deficits, a regressive tax code and a semi-private military, along with gutting every regulatory agency he could and creating a far right 5 vote majority on the Court.  His lone large political failure was the result of overreach born from startling success at moving this country towards plutocracy.  So yeah it worked out really really well for Bush.  He was insanely successful at getting his agenda through.

And this quote:

In the mean time, which hurt working people more?  W fighting the war on terrorism or Clinton signing NAFTA and deregulating the banks?  

is juvenile.  W did more things than fight the war on terrorism.  Its like you are unaware that Bush had a domestic agenda.  And I am guessing that it is only American working people you care about, because the hundreds of thousands of men women and children slaughtered in Iraq and Afghanistan weren't really in the leisure and consumption class.

[ Parent ]
And how many times (4.00 / 2)
Did W have the support of corporate Dems?   Just about every time.  Without them,  what would have happened?  Your argument is typical of weak kneed, sychophantic Dems.  Dems, at least the type we've elected recently, never seem to be willing to endur long enough to get it right.  Just take the best you can get and move on.  I see nothing that W did that was worse than NAFTA or deregulating the banks in terms affecting the people of America.

In regards to the war,  I think that I brought that up so trying to lay the murder of the Iraqi people at my feet is ridiculously didactic on your part.  

You're entitled to be an Obamapologist, but let's see if that continues to work out for Dems.  If I'm juvenile, then I would suggest you're hopelessly ignorant of reality.  

Obama made it clear yesterday he doesn't support progressive ideas and that he would give cover to anyone that works with him.  Let's just keep supporting him and see where it gets the working people.  


[ Parent ]
Maybe I'm misreading both of you, but... (4.00 / 1)
PTM is correct in saying that Bush got what he wanted.  Whether Dems helped or not is irrelevant to that fact.

I don't see any of that argument as being "Obamapologistic."  I wouldn't have uprated if I had.  Indeed, I see this as an argument against Obama.  The point being that Bush got what he and his base wanted while Obama doesn't.  Granted, I think this misses the obvious (we aren't Obama's base, and what he wants isn't what we want), but that's beside the point.  But maybe I'm missing some subtext?  In any event, I didn't get any more from that argument, so I'm not sure why you think it's "typical of weak kneed, sycophantic Dems."  It seems to be a bit naive in how it views Obama's motivations, to be sure, but the facts stated are indisputable, whether or not you like them.

Further, if you think NAFTA was the worst thing to happen since Clinton, I cannot see how we can have a cogent conversation.  It is simply an absurd statement.  Lying us into war with Iraq, a policy of torture (of which GitMo was the face), the PATRIOT Act, extraordinary rendition, the Military Commissions Act, just to name a few, are just the tip of the Bush administration's iceberg, and all of them are at least equally if not more devastating for the nation than NAFTA or gutting banking regulations.  Just because you can't put a dollar figure to the damage they caused does not in any way lessen their impact.

In the case of torture and extraordinary rendition, those policies violate the Constitution.  Yes, they do.  We are signatories to a treaty, and the Constitution states that treaties are as if they're part of the Constitution.  Torture definitely violates a treaty to which we are signatories, and I'm pretty sure you could argue that extraordinary rendition fits in there, too.  So torture and very possibly extraordinary rendition are violations of the Constitution.

The Military Commissions act, in case you forgot, gives the President the authority to take anyone off the street and lock them up indefinitely.  All he has to do is accuse them of being a terrorist.  If that doesn't violate the Constitution, I don't know what does.  And The PATRIOT Act was a direct attack on our 4th Amendment Rights, among other things.

The ability of Bush to enact all of these things and more, let alone any one of them, should clue you in to the utter destruction he wrought upon the very foundations of our country.

So even if I were to concede that each individual Bush policy or legislative accomplishment is not the equal of NAFTA or deregulation of the banks in terms of their destructive influence on the nation or the American people (an argument I do not concede, just to be clear), the sum total of their policies is in no way comparable.  There is a reason Bush is considered to be among the worst, if not the worst, president in the history of the US.  And I find it really odd that anyone here would construct an argument which implicitly attempts to argue against that, given all the evidence.

Again, maybe I'm misreading both of you, so I'm not really trying to take sides between you.  And if I come off combative, I apologize.  (I don't have time to nitpick my entire comment for tone and politeness.)  I just find your argument odd considering how I read and interpreted PTM's comment.

If you don't fight, you can't win.
Never give up. Never Surrender.


[ Parent ]
I appreciate that you believe all the points you laid out are factual (0.00 / 0)
and more important than the effects NAFTA and bank deregulation.  But in reality, that is just your judgmental opinion.  I seriously doubt that the more people think that the war is worse than the economic chaos that has happened since those two laws were initiated.  While you make a moral judgment about who lied, how terrible the patriot law is, etc..  Not even Obama would agree with you, apparently.  

I would like to point out to you, that from a personal point of view I might agree more with you than not, I don't think the majority of working people do.

You are right, if someone resorts to labeling another as juvenile or says they really don't care to discuss difference there is little likelihood of reasonable discussion.


[ Parent ]
What points did I lay out that were not factual? (0.00 / 0)
You do not get to make that claim--not with me--without providing proof.  Not ever.  I don't care about belief when it comes to facts.  If I did, I'd side with the Global Warming Deniers.  (It'd be so much easier to believe it's all a lie.)

Did Bush not get what he wanted?

Are we Obama's base?

Does Obama want what we want?

Is it not absurd to claim, as if it's a proven fact, that NAFTA or banking deregulation were the worst policy since the Clinton administration given all the horrible policies that came from the Bush administration?  Would that not be a matter of opinion, and as such, debatable (which I then went on to prove by debating the point)?*

I can go on, but I think I've made my point.  So I ask again, what points did I make that were not factual?

My opinions?  Of course those are opinions.  I make value and moral judgments like everyone else.  These judgments are arguable.  But I always base my judgments on facts, and where I don't, I expect and desire to be called on it.  But that also means the person doing the calling better be able to point out the fallacies, because obviously, I missed them.  Without that, I just don't see why I should listen.

In the same spirit of pointing out fallacies...

I appreciate you pointing out that most people see the economy as being more important than constitutional rights.  Indeed, I recognize that obvious fact which has been proven in recent polling.  That doesn't mean they are correct in that judgment, nor does it mean it is correct for you to use it to prove your assertion that you are correct.  Your argument is an Appeal to Popularity, a logical fallacy which anyone who's taken Logic 101 should know.  Further, for one who labels others as "Obamapologists," I find it very odd that you would then use Obama to further attempt to justify and prove your argument, knowing full well that he is wrong.  (Or perhaps I have assumed too much, and you believe he is correct to ignore war crimes and gross violations of the Constitution?)  In any case, it's an Appeal to Authority, another logical fallacy.

You say you might agree with me more than not.  If so, then I do not understand why you would argue otherwise.  To play Devil's Advocate?  That does not seem productive, here.

Judging by your comments, you seem to value independent thought (a value I can readily agree with).  Yet, by what you've just said, you are implying that your argument is not based on your own thoughts but rather on what others think.  In the context of the broader argument, what's the point of doing that?  We already know (or at least have a pretty good clue) about that, already.  I'd rather know what you think.  That's why I'm reading your comments.

* The larger issue of all this stuff being disastrous policy which needs to be fixed ASAP (I think we can both agree on that) seems to have been lost in the nitpicking.  And really, that's the most important point, which is obviously why it only deserves a footnote.  Hah!

If you don't fight, you can't win.
Never give up. Never Surrender.


[ Parent ]
Ridiculous (4.00 / 1)
I took issue with one claim you made.  I did not defend Obama at any point.  A quick click on my name would reveal I haven't defended Obama in any significant way since before he was elected.  Maybe you should come up with another argument, so that you aren't stuck with the 'You are an Obamapologist' accusation when it is obviously inapt.  That and read comments a second time before you respond so that you actually understand what your opponent is saying.

You don't have to think Obama is worse than Bush and the neocons to think he is a bad president taking us in the wrong direction.  You are being ridiculous when you equate 'Bush got most of what he wanted' with 'Obama is a good president' or 'we should wait to decide whether Obama is a good president'.

And I didn't lay the deaths of the Iraqi and Afghan people at your feet.  I brought them up by way of arguing against you.  And if you really think that this recession (caused in large part by financial deregulation during Clinton's presidency) is worse than the murder of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and Afghans than you are either tremendously spoiled or just a racist.



[ Parent ]
You are entitled to your opinion (0.00 / 0)
And your judgmental, name calling.   And if you have any facts, other than your opinion that would indicate I'm a racist, point them out.   Other than that I see you as someone who resorts to hysterics when you don't like another persons point of view.  Go back up the thread and see who started calling people names.   In the future, please avoid responding to my comments and I will avoid yours.   I consider you unworthy of a discussion.  

[ Parent ]
"you and I are far apart as Democrats can be" Uh, actually,... (0.00 / 0)
..Goodman never called himself a Dem, afaik. He's a libertarian.

[ Parent ]
Fair enough. And I seldom disagree with his comments. (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
It sounds like Pres. is just making stuff up (4.00 / 3)
In his weekly address he talked about jobs, deficit reduction and spending freeze.  Wow.

Talk about destroying the message he created during the campaign.  All the tax cuts and tax credits he proposes cost money - contrary to what neo-liberals say.  What a weak excuse for jobs program!

The amount of bullshit is getting deep.  

RebelCapitalist - Financial Information for the Rest of Us.


Biden (4.00 / 1)
would be better a President.  

Frighteningly True n/t (4.00 / 1)


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
In addition to the undeniable meanness of dismantling the welfare state (4.00 / 4)
there's also the undeniable stupidity of doing this, given that it's simply impossible for any country to keep all of its citizens above the poverty line without large welfare state programs--and why on earth would you want anyone to be below the poverty line, on both moral and practical grounds? It's mean-spirited, and ultimately costs the economy more than welfare programs do, making such cuts a false economy.

And it's not just about "welfare", but about the general concept of a modern state having to play a central role in the planning and carrying out of mass public works projects, and in the economy, in order for a country and its people to be prosperous and well-functioning. Anyone who disputes this is either an idiot or in denial--the pony dreams of libertarian conservatives do not constitute a coherent policy formulate, but rather are more on the level of middle aged trekkies going at it in chat rooms.

Of course, Obama's not doing this because he's a small government fiscal conservative ideologue, but because he's an establishment fetishist--he absolutely worships people with power and money, and seeks their illusory love (which he of course will never get), not respect (which he refuses to earn). And in this case, the people he's kissing up to are center-right Repubs and Dems and certain Wall St. types, who in their greed, meanness and stupidity believe that deficits trump economic stimulus in a recession.

Obama seems to be unwilling if not unable to break free of his obvious need to be embraced by center-right establishment types (in my view because he's forever looking for approval from surrogate stern father figures, his actual father having long ago abandoned and rejected him, and running away from what he views as his mother's naive liberal idealism). Which is why he refuses to fight them, and keeps trying to please them.

Instead of just doing the right thing. The triumph of (bad) politics over sound policy.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


I don't think you need to picture him as obsessive compulsive victim (4.00 / 2)
This isn't about him needing love.  It's about him believing that the elite should have total control over the people.  This is what he believes.  The campaign promises.  Those were calculated lies.  The only o/c here is the left wing need for a gallant, politically correct leader to lead us to the promised land.  The idea that this president will change and become a great leader of the people is rediculous.  He could have done that a year ago, if he wanted.  

[ Parent ]
I don't believe that (4.00 / 1)
He doesn't strike me as an ideological oligarch so much as someone who naturally tends to align with powerful people. That is, it's not so much that he loves the elite and despises everyday people, as that he fears and wants to be loved by elites, and be viewed by them as an equal. He's a bit like a battered spouse who keeps trying to win the love of his battering spouse, rather than see them for what they are and figure out a healthier way to move on. Stockholm Syndrome, with underlying father issues. What Paul referred to as reaction-formation. There's clearly a lot of that going on here.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton

[ Parent ]
Your explantion is just too clinical (4.00 / 3)
It's not about love, or hate, or deep psychological disturbance.  But bottom line, he just agrees with the elitist philosophy.  He spent his entire young adulthood becoming one.  This president is not a victim of compulsion or desperation.  He is a proponent of centrist oligarchy.  He truly believes that everyone will be better off if they follow him.  I think you are hoping for hope.  That someday he will rise and strike down the evil corporatist.  I just don't see any facts to support that.  

[ Parent ]
But WHY does he believe in or persue such policies? (4.00 / 3)
I suggest that he's simply too intelligent and well-educated and informed to actually believe that neoliberalism really works. Rather, I believe that he's opted for it because it's what the power elite--the political, media, financial and corporate establishment--prefer, because they believe that it best serves their interests, and he'd rather be their friend than their enemy. Whether this is out of personal weakness or political calculation is anyone's guess (I think it's both). He may have convinced himself that he's adopted neoliberalism because he believes that it works, but if so he's just lying to himself to justify this sellout--as have other similarly intelligent and informed neoliberals, because it clearly doesn't work, at least in terms of serving society as a whole, and not just its rich and powerful elites.

What I'm doing here is making a distinction between the people who hold the real power in this country, namely the rich, and top financial and corporate executives, and those who effectively work for them and help them keep and expand their money and power, namely corporatist Dems like Obama, and pretty much the entire GOP. And I'm suggesting that the latter don't all do this for the same reason. Some--and perhaps most--do it because they're cheap and cowardly political whores who hope to join the upper ranks of the elites someday. But some, I believe, do it because of more personal ideosyncratic reasons, such as Obama, who I believe as a mixed-race person who grew up between two world has desperately wanted to "belong" and be approved and accepted by "insiders" for his entire life, and this suck-up to the power and money elites is a manifestation of that.

It's not that he doesn't want money and power for himself, just that these are not, I believe, his primary motivator. That, I believe, is his Stockholm Syndrome-like need to be loved by his former (symbolic and substitute) oppressors and excluders. Which is why he is, ultimately, less a leader than an aggressive follower, the ultimate fanboy, if you will (of bankers, corporate execs, powerful politicians, media leaders, etc.). And I'm guessing that people like Geithner and Summers are similarly motivated by a subconscious desire to be embraced and approved by elites. It's a sickness, really, one that I've seen up close and personal.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
Damn kovie (4.00 / 1)
You been thinking about this too much!   But if it's any consolation, it really bothers me that I got sucked into voting for a person that is either willingly or subconsciously a tool for the rich.  Remember the saying, doing something over in the same way and hoping for a different outcome, is the definition of insanity.  Or as GWB put it, " Do it once, shame on me...."

[ Parent ]
I can't help it (4.00 / 2)
I don't regret having voted for him, considering the alternatives, and I do believe that it's still possible to push him to do right, because I don't believe that he's just a smarter Lieberman or Nelson. I think that he's a mixed-up sort who still hasn't figured out a way to reconcile his progressive inclinations (which I believe he has) with his accomodationist tendencies and deep desire to be accepted by and take his place among the elites of the world.

In a way he's like Clinton in this respect, except that he's more disciplined, and capable of more self-honesty (a quality which, sadly, he seems to want to resist, perhaps because he knows that it would lead him down a tougher path than he's currently on, that of a fighter and perhaps even martyr, and not that of an incrementalist accomodationist). And unlike Clinton, I believe that there's still some possibility of pushing him towards the right path.

But to be able to do that, it's imperative that we understand what makes him tick, and why he's doing what he's doing. I'm just proposing one possible Theory Of Obama. There are others. But it's not enough for me to say "He sucks, he's a sellout, same as the old boss, we're screwed...". I want to look beyond that, to what's still possible. And that requires us to understand the man and his motivations, to know what buttons to push.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
I don't think Wall St. thinks deficits trump recession stimulus. (4.00 / 3)
That's just a symptom of their desires.  What they want is for you, me, and all the rest of us to be dirt poor and in perpetual debt.  They want a return to pre-union workplaces.  They want slave labor.  (Oh, they'll never admit to any of it, but that's the logical conclusion to their continual quest to destroy unions and offshore jobs all in the name of their search for greater profits.)

Spending in a recession, especially spending on jobs for the poor schmoes suffering in the streets, is a direct attack on the rich and corporate profits.  It helps raise up the poor, and gives more power to the middle class.  For big corporations and the rich, this is a Very Bad Thing (TM).  They don't want anyone else having a say in how things get done.  They've also got more than enough money to weather even the deepest recession for a couple decades.  Considering this, why not spend a decade stomping down the rabble?  Put them in their place and make sure they stay there for another 50 years or so.  Makes running things so much easier, don't you think?

Yes, this is class warfare.  It never ended.  It will never end.  From the dawn of civilization to the last days, it will always be.  Fight, or get ground to dust.

If you don't fight, you can't win.
Never give up. Never Surrender.


[ Parent ]
"the creation of the first mass middle class in the history of the world" (4.00 / 1)
They key word is "mass", of course. I don't want to argue with you about what constitutes a "mass" (prolly rather useless, it's basically a matter of opinion, where to draw the line), but many historians certainly would dispute your claim. Take, for instance, this:

The Industrial Revolution, Political Transition, and the Subsequent Decline in Inequality in 19th-Century Britain

Democratization was a key mediating factor linking Britain's first industrial revolution to subsequent reductions in income inequality. Accelerated economic growth, generating a wider distribution of discretionary resources, created incentives for repeated expansions of the franchise, which then led to a progressive shift in legislation. After the Second and Third Reform Acts, income inequality was reduced by successive acts of legislation which provided free public education; strengthened the legal standing of the trade unions; aided the aged, the sick, and the unemployed without abridging their political rights; and replaced regressive indirect taxes with progressive taxes on income, land, and inherited wealth.

How about phrasing it instead in this way: "the creation of the largest mass middle class in the history of the world"? I guess there are more facts to defend this statement. The rapid growth of the US middle class after WWII probably is unprecedent. And the level of equality reached may be second to none. It's just not true that it was the "first mass middle class" in the common definition of the word.


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