Why did Rachel Maddow ignore LBJ?

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sun Jun 27, 2010 at 14:00


It's not just a political question, it's a cognitive one.  And of course, it's not just Rachel Maddow.

This diary has three parts: The Setup, in which Obama overpraise is once again front and center. The Reality Check, in which I once again remind folks of what LBJ did aside from the Vietnam War, and the Cognitive Science Reflection, in which I take advantage of an essay series by Errol Morris this week--helpfully pointed out by TSlavin which deals in part with the question "What if you're too incompetent to realize that you're incompetent?"

The Setup: Overpraising Obama Once Again

Rachel Maddow has been on a bit of a tear lately.  Her coverage of the BP oil spill has been well beyond anyone else similarly situated in the media, and as I noted yesterday in "Why is Rachel Maddow the only one who understands what's going on?", she's the only one who got to the very heart of the contradiction in McChrystal's conduct, which went to the very essence of the "logic" of the Afghan War.

That only made it all the more perplexing when she picked up a bone-headed comment by Teagan Goddard that "Not since FDR has a president done so much to transform the country," and ran with it:

It turns out that a lot of things that have happened in the less than two years of this administration are the biggest or first or most important in generations. On the occasion of the Wall Street reform announcement today, Taegan Goddard at "CQ Politics" wrote, "Not since FDR has a president done so much to transform this country."

Even before today`s historic Wall Street reform agreement, President Obama, of course, did what politicians have been trying to do for more than 60 years. He passed health reform, which, for the first time, establishes government responsibility for the health care of American citizens.

Consider also the stimulus bill. It didn`t just throw a lasso around our entire economy and yank and yank it back from the brink. It also pumped about $100 billion into the crumbling embarrassment of our national infrastructure and transportation system.

It was the largest investment in infrastructure since Ike....

But presidential legacies are complex. Not even the Reagan administration`s legacy is pure as the conservative-driven snow. But Taegan Goddard at "CQ Politics" was right today about nothing this big happening since FDR.

The list of legislative accomplishments of this president in half a term even before energy reform which he`s probably going to get to is, to quote the vice president, "a big freaking deal." Love this administration or hate it, this president is getting a lot done.

The last time any president did this much in office, booze was illegal. If you believe in policy, if you believe in government that addresses problems, cheers to that.

I have just three letters to say to Maddow, the same three letters I had to say to her back in January ("Efficiency vs. Effectiveness"): L-B-J.

Paul Rosenberg :: Why did Rachel Maddow ignore LBJ?
Back in January, it was also CQ that got the ball rolling, as I noted in my diary:

    "Efficiency is doing things right; effectiveness is doing the right things." Peter F. Drucker

A range of people have commented about CQ's analysis showing that Barack Obama has achieved a record level of success in winning congressional votes on issues where he took a position.  Many people would take this to be a measure of presidential effectiveness.  Many people would be wrong.  It's a measure of presidential efficiency, nothing more, nothing less.

For me, given all that's happened--and all that hasn't--over the past year, the most obvious comment would be, "So?"  When you haven't done what needs to be done, no other measure really matters, even especially if it purports to show that you're number one.

I noted how a number of different folks weighed in, and then I got to Maddow:

Things were even worse when Rachel Maddow decided to take the tack of dealing with this story under the banner of "Conventional Wisdom Fail" (see, Obama is too a raging success!) And it went from bad to worse when she brough on Michael Beschloss, in full-on lamitude mode:
    MADDOW: Empirically, whether or not you like Obama's policies, but from a pure quantitative perspective in terms of what this president has done-how does President Obama's first year stack up against previous presidencies?

    BESCHLOSS:  Well, he is the equal of Franklin Roosevelt in his first year, LBJ in 1965 or Ronald Reagan in 1981.  You know, Obama last year, or two years ago during the campaign, kept on saying, "I want to be a transforming president," like Roosevelt, like Johnson, like Reagan.  And the breadth of the kind of things he has done-you're absolutely right to talk about them-I think suggests that that's what he's going to be.

Reality Check: LBJ's Mind-Boggling Legislative Record

As I noted in that earlier diary, "Comparing Obama to FDR is nothing short of laughable.  Heck, even on foreign policy, FDR's Good Neighbor Policy was more profound than anything Obama has done."  But most significant was the long list of major legislation that LBJ passed.  Here's the list of highlights that I presented then, just from 1965:

Civil rights
  * Voting Rights Act of 1965
  * Immigration and Nationality Services Act of 1965

War on Poverty
  * Upward Bound
  * Head Start   

Education
  * Elementary and Secondary Education Act of 1965
  * Higher Education Act of 1965

Health
  * Medicare
  * Medicaid

Arts and Culture
  * National Endowment for the Arts
  * National Endowment for the Humanities  

Consumer protection
  * Cigarette Labeling Act of 1965

Environment
  * Land and Water Conservation Act of 1965
  * Solid Waste Disposal Act of 1965
  * Motor Vehicle Air Pollution Control Act of 1965

With a record like that, it's self-evident why Maddow ignored LBJ: he would make her argument totally laughable.  But that explanation only scratches the surface, IMHO.  I'm convinced that there are very deep and profound cognitive processes involved in keeping us ignorant and stupid about just how bad things are in America and the world today, and while Maddow is often an exception to the rule, pointing out things that the rest of Versailles studiously ignores, she is ultimately not immune to this phenomena.  Which leads us to our next section.

A Cognitive Science Reflection on Political Incompetence

In his NYT essay series this week, "The Anosognosic's Dilemma: Something's Wrong but You'll Never Know What It Is", Errol Morris starts off with David Dunning, a Cornell professor of social psychology, stumbling across the story of McArthur Wheeler, arguably teh most incompetent bank robber of all time:

Wheeler had walked into two Pittsburgh banks and attempted to rob them in broad daylight.  What made the case peculiar is that he made no visible attempt at disguise.  The surveillance tapes were key to his arrest.  There he is with a gun, standing in front of a teller demanding money.  Yet, when arrested, Wheeler was completely disbelieving.  "But I wore the juice," he said.  Apparently, he was under the deeply misguided impression that rubbing one's face with lemon juice rendered it invisible to video cameras.

Wheeler was not as dumb as he might seem.  Two men had told him that if he rubbed his face in lemon juice, then cameras couldn't take his picture.  But he didn't just take their word for it. He tested it out by rubbing his face in lemon juice and then taking a Polaroid picture of himself, which showed not a trace of his face!  Unfortunately for him, his incompetence went much deeper than he ever suspected.  (He had, apparently, turned the camera away from his face as he snapped the photo.) And that's really what Morris's essay series is all about--anosognosia, defined as:

a condition in which a person who suffers from a disability seems unaware of or denies the existence of his or her disability

Anosognosia originally referred to people suffering a neurological paralysis--that was the underlying disability of which they were unaware, when the term was originally coined by the nuerologist Joseph Babinski, but its meaning has become more generalized since then. Although Morris's essay series contains a great deal else--including some fascinating material about Babinski and his contemporaries, and the interplay between their work and Surrealism--there are two distinct aspects of Morris's series that I want to focus on here.  First is Dunning's focus questions of competence, and second is the contemporary followup to Babinski's work by V.S. Ramachandran, who focuses considerable attention on the question of whether the anosognosic knows about the paralysis on some level. Ramachandran has produced experimental results showing that such knowledge is there in some senses, even if it isn't in others.

First, here's how Morris describe's Dunning's response to reading the article, and where it led:

As Dunning read through the article, a thought washed over him, an epiphany.  If Wheeler was too stupid to be a bank robber, perhaps he was also too stupid to know that he was too stupid to be a bank robber - that is, his stupidity protected him from an awareness of his own stupidity.

Dunning wondered whether it was possible to measure one's self-assessed level of competence against something a little more objective - say, actual competence.  Within weeks, he and his graduate student, Justin Kruger, had organized a program of research.  Their paper, "Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties of Recognizing One's Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-assessments," was published in 1999.[3]

Dunning and Kruger argued in their paper, "When people are incompetent in the strategies they adopt to achieve success and satisfaction, they suffer a dual burden: Not only do they reach erroneous conclusions and make unfortunate choices, but their incompetence robs them of the ability to realize it.  Instead, like Mr. Wheeler, they are left with the erroneous impression they are doing just fine."

It became known as the Dunning-Kruger Effect - our incompetence masks our ability to recognize our incompetence.

Dunning went on to refer to the Dunning-Kruger Effect as "the anosognosia of everyday life."  But what's this got to do with Rachel Maddow ignoring the existence of LBJ?

Well, hold on just a little bit longer, and I'll be ready to make that clear.  First, let's hear a bit more elaboration from Dunning:

DAVID DUNNING: If you look at our 1999 article, we measured skills where we had the right answers.  Grammar, logic.  And our test-subjects were all college students doing college student-type things.  Presumably, they also should know whether or not they're getting the right answers.  And yet, we had these students who were doing badly in grammar, who didn't know they were doing badly in grammar.  We believed that they should know they were doing badly, and when they didn't, that really surprised us.

ERROL MORRIS: The students that were unaware they were doing badly - in what sense?  Were they truly oblivious? Were they self-deceived?  Were they in denial?  How would you describe it?

DAVID DUNNING:  There have been many psychological studies that tell us what we see and what we hear is shaped by our preferences, our wishes, our fears, our desires and so forth.  We literally see the world the way we want to see it.  But the Dunning-Kruger effect suggests that there is a problem beyond that.  Even if you are just the most honest, impartial person that you could be, you would still have a problem - namely, when your knowledge or expertise is imperfect, you really don't know it.  Left to your own devices, you just don't know it.   We're not very good at knowing what we don't know.

Here, then, is the connection in two steps:  First, if, like me, you responded to the announcement of Sarah Palin as John McCain's running mate by reading Alaska bloggers like Shannyn Moore, AKMuckraker, Andrew Halcro and others, you quickly got the impression--going back to her record in Wassila politics--that Palin was a classic mean girl grown up, an overgrown small-town bully utterly lacking in basic policy skills, but hyper-adept in blame-shifting.  Like "Joe The Plumber" she epitomized a sort of self-celebratory incompetence so profound that they were "left with the erroneous impression they are doing just fine."  Any feedback that either Palin or the not-plumber might be missing something was rejected as "elitism".  This even applied to attempts by McCain campaign staff to try to prepare Palin for political prime time.

While we readily recognize Palin's policy incompetence, however, we are much less clear about the Democratic couterpart.  And this brings us to step two.  As Dunning's last quote above makes clear, the basic problem of knowing what you don't know transcends the problems of bias and bigotry that bedevil figures like Sarah Palin:

Even if you are just the most honest, impartial person that you could be, you would still have a problem - namely, when your knowledge or expertise is imperfect, you really don't know it.

Obama clearly is not like Palin in ways too numerous to mention.  But he is like her--as we all are--in the way that Dunning describes.  The way to get past that--at least provisionally--is to set up situations that challenge our thinking.  But Obama's choice of subordinates and advisors has had exactly the opposite effect. He's routinely excluded the most articulate, competent critics of the conventional wisdom that's gotten us into so much trouble.  This is especially obvious with respect to his economic team and his military team.  There's no room for Cassandras at his table.

When Maddow blithely ignores the existence of LBJ and his massive record of legislative accomplishments, she's doing two things at once.  First, she's facilitating the broader process of removing challenging information from consideration in evaluating Obama's competence.  She is enabling the very dynamic that Dunning is waring us against.

But there's another reason that Democrats so easily ignore LBJ, and that is Vietnam.  While LBJ was highly knowledgeable about domestic politics, he was not expert--or even comfortable, really--in foreign affairs.  And so he ended up following expert advisors (whom Kennedy had often ignored, but never bothered to replace) on a path that lead to disaster.  If LBJ's legislative accomplishments are staggering historically, so too is his folly in Vietnam.  And the pain of confronting the latter still prevents Democrats from coming to terms with it and learning the necessary lessons.  Although Maddow comes as close as anyone similarly situated to having learned those lessons, as my diary yesterday argued, the fact that she can turn on a dime and make this sort of argument for Obama's legislative greatness, utterly ignoring LBJ in the process, is a stark indication that she has not really grasped the full extent of the tragedy of Vietnam, and the tragedy of Afghanistan foretold.

This brings us to the work of V.S Ramachandran, who tells a very fascinating story:

V.S. RAMACHANDRAN: Offhand, I can't tell you when they started using the term "anosognosia" for other types of denial. I'll tell you one thing that may be of interest to you. I saw a lady, not long ago, in India, and she had complete paralysis on her left side, a very intelligent woman, but had both anosognosia and somatoparaphrenia - you know what that is, right?

ERROL MORRIS: Not really.

V.S. RAMACHANDRAN: Denial that a body part, in this instance, an arm, belongs to her. It's part of the same spectrum of disorders. So the wonderful thing about her is that she has a great sense of humor and was really articulate and intelligent. So I asked her, "Can you move your right arm?" and the usual list of questions, and she said "Yes, of course." I said, "Can you move your left arm?" She said, "Yes." "Can you touch my nose?" "Yes, I can touch your nose, sir." "Can you see it?" "Yes, it's almost there." The usual thing, O.K.? So far, nothing new. Her left arm is lying limp in her lap; it's not moving at all; it's on her lap, on her left side, O.K.?

I left the room, waited for a few minutes, then I went back to the room and said, "Can you use your right arm?" She said, "Yes." Then I grabbed her left arm and raised it towards her nose and I said, "Whose arm is this?" She said, "That's my mother's arm." Again, typical, right? And I said, "Well, if that's your mother's arm, where's your mother?" And she looks around, completely perplexed, and she said, "Well, she's hiding under the table."

So this sort of confabulatory thing is very common, but it's just a very striking manifestation of it. No normal person would dream of making up a story like that. But here is the best part. I said, "Please touch your nose with your left hand." She immediately takes her right hand, goes and reaches for the left hand, raising it, passively raising it, right? Using it as a tool to touch my nose or touch her nose. What does this imply? She claims her left arm is not paralyzed, right? Why does she spontaneously reach for it and grab her left arm with her right hand and take her left hand to her nose? That means she knows it is paralyzed at some level. Is that clear? [53]

ERROL MORRIS: Yes. Presumably, if she didn't know it was paralyzed, she wouldn't try to lift it with her right hand.

V.S. RAMACHANDRAN: And it gets even better, she's just now told me that it's not her left arm, it is her mother's arm, so why is she pulling up her mother's arm and pointing it at my nose? What we call belief is not a monolithic thing; it has many layers.

So it is with Maddow, and with all of us, really.  We know things and yet we do not.  It is not just belief, but consciousness itself, as well as everything it contains that is fragmentary and layered.  It is a constant struggle to take these disparate pieces and layers and make of them a coherent whole.

As Ramachandran reminds us, confabulation is very common.  We construct narratives out of disjoint parts that simply cannot fit together, and then we disable our abilitie to see through what we have done.  For the Tea Baggers, it's ACORN stealing the 2008 election for an illegal, foreign-born candidate, despite the lack of any documentary evidence to support their narrative.  And for Obamaphiles, it's the narrative of Obama's stupendous accomplishments, even if it requires blanking out the very existence of LBJ, and pretending that different pieces of the stimulua are Teh Awesome, even if the whole was roughly half of what was needed in the first place.

I'm not pretending to be immune myself.  None of us is.  But Obama's critics on the left don't have the kinds of myth-making, confabulating mega-machinery actively feeding their delusions that Tea Baggers and Obamaphiles have.  It's easier for us to avoid commonplace errors of judgment precisely because we face a more hostile, unforgiving narrative environment.

That's our dark cloud's silver lining.  That, and the fact that we do not ignore the mega-problems of empire that American national politics revolves around denying,


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She is right, though (4.00 / 1)
In fact, this administration HAS passed more legislation than even the wunderkind LBJ.

So??? (4.00 / 7)
That's like saying that Ayn Rand wrote more words than Robert Frost.

What's the point?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
what part of Efficiency vs effectiveness (0.00 / 0)
do you NOT understand?

[ Parent ]
I'm not sure that's true anyway (4.00 / 5)
LBJ had Congress swimming in legislation, most of which became law.

Thanks Paul for a great diary. On target.

I would only add that, when hearing messages such as "Obama has passed the greatest reform in 60 years", the general public probably has nothing to really baseline that against. LBJ-to the extent that the average person under 50 has even heard of him-is simply known as the one of the two presidents that always shows up in those Vietnam movies.

So without any historical reference to speak of (except to go way back to FDR), people measure that statement by whether or not their lives have been impacted for the better by Obama. I think that's why his "successes" have such a short shelf-life: no one sees any change.


[ Parent ]
Exactly! (4.00 / 1)
I think that's why his "successes" have such a short shelf-life: no one sees any change.

Juxtapose this with over-the-top claims about how much Obama has done, and the Democrats pushing it have about as much credibility as the GOP praising Bush & patting themselves on the back.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Seems Greenwald was noting a more serious but similar case today (4.00 / 2)
I wonder if you've read Glenn Greenwalds post concerning Jeffrey Goldberg today?
http://www.salon.com/news/opin...
It begins:
In a stunning display of self-unawareness, The Atlantic's Jeffrey Goldberg pointed to last week's forced "resignation" by Dave Weigel from The Washington Post as evidence that the Post, "in its general desperation for page views, now hires people who came up in journalism without much adult supervision, and without the proper amount of toilet-training."

He goes on to make quite a list, and, relative to the final two paragraphs of your post, notes that:

...Goldberg has never acknowledged his journalistic errors, expressed remorse for them, or paid any price at all.  To the contrary, as is true for most Iraq war propagandists, he thrived despite as a result of his shoddy record in service of the war.


Not Really (4.00 / 2)
The Versailles dumping on David Weigel is much less complicated, IMHO.

Here's the bottom line of this diary:  Problems of human competence -- even consciousness -- are much more slippery than we normally presume, and we need everything we can get our hands on--including formal adversarial relationships, such as institutionalized "devils advocates"--to avoid getting ourselves into trouble, just as we think we're sitting pretty.

This is what happened to the concservatives & the GOP under Bush, and as Dunning says, " Even if you are just the most honest, impartial person that you could be" that same deeper problem--beyond all the bullshit that the GOP has so much more off--still remains.

That's what we have to deal with--the inherent imperfection of human understanding.  And the more that establishment Dems demonize critics on the left to feel good about themselves, the deeper they dig themselves into that hole, the same way that LBJ dug himself into the hole of Vietnam, even as he was passing the most amazing domestic agenda in American history, in some ways even moreso than the original New Deal (which, after all, included nothing overtly positive about race or gender).

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
It's hard to imagine (4.00 / 2)
people talking about any of Obama's bills in 50 years.

Much easier than talking about his escalation of the war in Afghanistan and his failure to reform the financial system.  


whoops (0.00 / 0)
brain farted as I wrote that comment; point is clear, though, I think.

While I'm here, I'll also mention that Obama worked to make the financial reform worse.  


[ Parent ]
Really? (0.00 / 0)
The passing of near universal health care won't be considered a milestone?

It's also a kind of rough standard to have to meet.  For Obama to be a passable president for some of you guys, he's got to beat the best presidents of the 20th century and in his first 18 months -- whew!  Talk about raising the bar.

The financial bill clearly WILL reform the financial system and more stringently than anything in a LONG time (if not back to -- yes - FDR).  You may be right that it isn't enough of course -- but why overstate your case so drastically?

We could, of course, claim that FDR failed to reform the financial system and that's what got us into this business in the first place -- but that would be a little unfair don't you think?


[ Parent ]
"near universal health care"? (4.00 / 2)
Who is drastically overstating?
We could, of course, claim that FDR failed to reform the financial system and that's what got us into this business in the first place -- but that would be a little unfair don't you think?

A "little unfair"? Try completely nonsensical.

miasmo.com


[ Parent ]
Well (0.00 / 0)
I am not making that claim, obviously.  I am wondering how one determines that passing financial reform bill is a failure to reform the financial system.  If it manifestly ignored all of the problems in the system or did nothing that would be fair.  I don't think any reasonable observer would say that about this bill.

One might claim -- with psychic clairvoyance -- that the reform will fail or that it wasn't sufficient.  But, of course, the Civil Rights Act wasn't sufficient -- that didn't mean it failed.  There is always more work to be done.  Would it really be all the same if nothing was passed?  

Of course, there will again be a financial crisis at some point in the future, but do you really think that if in fifty years there is a financial meltdown there going to be talking about Obama's failure to pass reform?  Of course not.  So to be talking about it in 50 years, there would have to be drastic consequences to the lack of specific changes to the system and those consequences would have to play out relatively quickly afterward.  If they didn't, it would be hard to pin the blame on Obama.  FDR and LBJ left many major progressive goals on the table unfinished (obviously).  But there failure to pass those things is not generally for what they are remembered.

Sorry if I was unclear.  And let me also state that I wish the financial reform were much stronger.  I just don't know why have to pretend it isn't actual reform when it pretty clearly is.


[ Parent ]
apples and oranges (4.00 / 3)
FDR's legislation prevented financial meltdowns for over half a century until parts of that legislation were repealed. There's absolutely no rational way to pin any of this mess on FDR. He fixed the problem and subsequent politicians broke it again.

In the current situation, the legislation is insufficient to prevent another meltdown. If we can't get reform adequate to prevent another failure with a Dem president and huge Dem majorities in both houses and while still living the horrible economic damage of the recent meltdown, WHEN WILL WE? The logical conclusion is either never or at least not until we experience an even worse collapse. This seems like what the kids call an EPIC FAIL. To try to compare it with what FDR accoplished is just silly.

miasmo.com


[ Parent ]
um (0.00 / 0)
not trying to pin it on FDR.  Sorry if that is confusing.  

Forget FDR if it's problematic for you -- i was merely trying to do as you were and take the perspective of fifty years hence -- it seemed unlikely to me that they will be taking about Obama's failure on this reform bill.  Though I ma very open to be wrong about that.

I guess I am just amazed how clear it is to you and many others that we have another economic meltdown coming soon and one that is precisely because big economic institutions are going to more or less fall into the same trap that they just fell into.  Although I think reform is necessary because they present system is unjust and unfair and does not lead to the most efficient economy, i am highly skeptical that these institutions would fall into the same trap soon if for only rational self-interest - even without a reform bill.  Indeed, the present cautiousness of lending institutions to get the economy going.

Anyway, I can't figure out how you KNOW this when so many knowledgable people don't.  You're so sure in fact that you think it's what they are going to be talking about in fifty years!


[ Parent ]
Does The Phrase "Design Flaw" Ring Any Bells? (0.00 / 0)
Not every design flaw results in catastrophic failure.

But that doesn't mean it's not a design flaw.

One doesn't have to be a fortune-teller.

One only has to be a truth-teller.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I am very open to (0.00 / 0)
the idea that there is a design flaw in the present financial system.  It doesn't really address my point of course.  Design flaws will play it in a myriad of ways.  Sometimes they are minor and annoying forever.  Sometimes they are major and lead to immediate catastrophic failure.  Sometimes they lead to some failures that allow for future fixes.  Sometimes they are hard to fix, sometime easy, and sometimes need to be fixed in steps. And so on.... To truthfully describe a design flaw does not on its own get you to the claim that Obama's lasting legacy will be that he did not fix a certain design-flaw in the financial system unless that design flaw leads clearly and obviously to something fairly catastrophic and again I am amazed at the prognosticators around here.

[ Parent ]
You Act As If The Design Flaws Weren't The Size Of The Grand Canyon (0.00 / 0)
Which tends to make you come off as faintly ridiculous.

Or worse.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
"rational self-interest" (0.00 / 0)
There's the flaw in your reasoning. It also just happens to be the exact logic that conservatives use to argue that corporations don't need to be regulated: "Rational self-interest will cause business to voluntarily act for the greater good of everyone." Of course, it's bullshit.

Although I think reform is necessary because they present system is unjust and unfair and does not lead to the most efficient economy, i am highly skeptical that these institutions would fall into the same trap soon if for only rational self-interest - even without a reform bill.

It horrifies me to think that many of the Dems in the administration and in Congress probably think like you. That's got to be how they rationalize such a feeble reform bill. The banksters made out like bandits. They raked in stratospheric bonuses for years and then left the public holding the bag when the bubble burst AND NOW ARE BIGGER AND MORE POWERFUL THAN EVER! Looks to me like rational self-interest is going to lead them to go for a repeat performance as soon as they can.

miasmo.com


[ Parent ]
miasmo Is Right (4.00 / 2)
These "reforms" don't even get us back to 1999.  They certainly qualify as "reform" in the most generic sense of the term, but resorting to the lowest common denominator is by it's very nature an admission of surrender.

What you're doing here--trotting out shibboleths like "There is always more work to be done."--is pure sophistry.  It's all about matching one narrative vs. another.  But this here is reality-based community territory, so the narratives also have to match reality as well.

In this case, since the 2010 "financial reforms" don't even restore the structural protections we had in 1999, the proper analogy would be if the the 1964 Civil Rights Act had actually weakened the 1957 Civil Rights Act.  But, of course, it did not.  Instead, it vastly strengthened and expanded upon the 1957 Act.

And that's where all your sophistry turns to ashes.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
well (0.00 / 0)
We do not reform things with respect to where they were but where they are.  You do understand this right?  The nature the 1964 reform was not a comparison to 1957, but a comparison to 1964.  If in 1964 the reforms of 1957 had all been gutted, then restoring some or all of the 1957 Civil Rights act would STILL have been reform and useful reform (if insufficient).  Obviously.  Reality-based indeed.

Also I wasn't aware that there was a Consumer Financial Protection Bureau in 1999 or that we had a ban on no-income mortgage loans or that swipe fees were against the law in 1999 or.... but I could go on... derivatives, tighter restrictions on bank debt etc...

This bill is neither what I wanted nor is it a complete failure to reform.  It is hard for me to except as reality-based anyone who considers that passing this bill is the same or worse as passing nothing at all...

Now I am open to the idea that because it was not enough everything will collapse again and then it was really all for naught.  But that is far from obvious -- anyone who claims to the KNOW the future of complex economic or social interactions with complete certainty -- especially when large numbers of experts disagree with them has a hard row to hoe in claiming to be reality-based.



[ Parent ]
You Do Understand The You're Supposed To Be Defending Yourself Against A Charge Of Sophistry? (0.00 / 0)
We do not reform things with respect to where they were but where they are.  You do understand this right?  The nature the 1964 reform was not a comparison to 1957, but a comparison to 1964.  If in 1964 the reforms of 1957 had all been gutted, then restoring some or all of the 1957 Civil Rights act would STILL have been reform and useful reform (if insufficient).  Obviously.  Reality-based indeed.

Apparently, not so much.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
whew! (0.00 / 0)
This is hard especially when i know you're so smart.  But OK.
(and you have a great habit of not addressing the points you have no response too).  Saying 'Sophistry!' is not much of an argument, but maybe we'll go step by step.

"These 'reforms' don't even get us back to 1999."  I took this as proof (to you) that these reforms are not real reforms.  Maybe I misread you, but if that is your argument I want to yell "Sophistry!" Haha.  But you give no response....

But rather than spending all our time in tautologies about the meaning of the word reform, I tried to point out some substantive things that do meet the meaning of the word 'reform' to any normal human being and are things that we should be happy have been passed, that clearly will or at least have a chance of changing things for the better which is all that we mean or want from reform.  You offer no response.

Moreover, it is incredibly important that we understand the difference between "a failure to reform" and "a failure to get all of the reforms we wanted".  That is not sophistical but can be a radically and substantively different description of reality which as a reality-based observer one should care about.

Indeed, this last gets very close to my biggest problems with your writing.  It is certainly very emotional and energetic and well (if very selectively) researched -- but it tends to steamroll anything remotely like a fine distinction.


[ Parent ]
Afghanistan, Vietnam (4.00 / 1)
I accidentally deleted a more detailed response, but have two points.  (I mostly agree, though.)

While LBJ was highly knowledgeable about domestic politics, he was not  expert--or even comfortable, really--in foreign affairs.  And so he ended up following expert advisors (whom Kennedy had often ignored, but never bothered to replace) on a path that lead to disaster.

You are better off not apologizing for LBJ's involvement in Vietnam.  It distracts from the point you are trying to make.  (Unless you are trying to ironical demonstrate it, in which case, brilliant!)  Almost any choice any president makes can be excused with this logic.

she has not really grasped the full extent of the tragedy of Vietnam, and the tragedy of Afghanistan foretold.

Afghanistan will never come close to Vietnam in political or objective historical importance.

The number of Vietnamese deaths is in the millions, including about 4 million civilians.  Afghanistan casualties are "only" in the thousands.

Over 50 times as many Americans died in Vietnam than Afghanistan, roughly a third drafted.

Unless we bring back the draft and escalate Afghanistan well beyond a surge or two, it will never play the role Vietnam played.


I'm Not Apologizing For LBJ In Vietnam (4.00 / 1)
I'm interested in historical accuracy, because you can't learn history's lessons if you don't even know what happened.  Knowing why LBJ screwed up in Vietnam is crucial for avoiding (or at the very least fighting against) the continued repetition of his mistakes over and over again by Democrats since then.  Just saying, "He was a bad man" is no explanation at all, and gives us nothing to work with.

But that's just the broad context.  There's also a much more specific point here:  To the extent that people like Rachel Maddow can't deal with the fact that such good domestic policy and such bad foreign policy could both come from the same White House, they are cognitive impaired from confronting the same possibility with the Obama White House today.  Now, I don't think that Obama's domestic policy is as good as Maddow does.  But I do think she knows that his foreign policy frankly makes no sense.  And I think she's somewhat constrained in the development of her independent critical analysis because she doesn't really grasp how sweepingly good (though far from perfect) LBJ's domestic agenda wasLBJ's domestic agenda was even while Vietnam was a national nightmare.

Of course Afghanistan will not have the sort of significance that Vietnam had by any of the metrics you mention. But in terms of keeping us committed to a counter-productive, adversarial role in the world when much bigger problems--such as global warming--are afoot, it's plenty bad enough in its own terms.

What Obama needed, more than anything, was to break decisively with the failed policies of the Bush Era, and he has failed to do so virtually across the board.  His continuation of the "war on terror" logic--with Afghanistan as the tip of the spear--is only one facet of this, but it's easily the most prominent, with the sole exception of his kid-glove treatment of Wall Street.  And that's why Afghanistan matters so much--it's a giant "Do Not Enter" sign where America's future ought to be.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
A rare false note for Maddow (0.00 / 0)
I think she betrayed her inherent (and typically American) desire to believe that things are better than they actually are, which she's usually good at suppressing, but did not do so here. It's an aspect of the American psyche that I've never really quite understood (being an immigrant), this tendency to not only WANT to view the world as being better than it really is (which is natural and healthy IMO), but to ACTUALLY see it as better than it really is (or to convince yourself that it is).

Why is it so hard for an adult person to see Obama for who and what he is? Not the devil, but not the messiah. It's as if people fear that if we see him for what he is, Oz will disappear. Well, we're not in Oz anymore, Rachel. This is Kansas.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
I'm Guilty, Too! (4.00 / 2)
I see America optimistically, too.  It just takes a different form.  I see more goodness in ordinary people.  Of course, I think I have good reason to, and I qualify that by being quite upfront about the persistence of racist attitudes holding us back.  But I have to acknowledge this is a bias I have in order to not get snookered by it myself.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Partially (0.00 / 0)
But I think there is a stronger belief that things are worse than they really are.  For example, how many people realize that violence has been going down for quite some time, both domestically and world wide?  Have you ever noticed that kids aren't allowed to walk to school anymore -- almost no parent seems to allow this.  It is as if child abductions and such are constantly going up, but they are not.  Only our ability to instantly learn about each and everyone one that does happen has gone up.

In reality, we have parts of our psyche that push us towards optimism and parts that push us towards pessimism.  While each of us has our own balance, with some leaning more one way than another, we all have that conflict playing in our head, pushing us both ways simultaneously.


[ Parent ]
Too early (0.00 / 0)
to be talking about the significance of the war in Afghanistan.

We could be there for fifty years.

It could contribute to the end of the American Empire.

It could inspire a horde of people to attack the US. (It was the spark that lit the Times Square bomber.)


[ Parent ]
Or it oculd (0.00 / 0)
be that we begin a draw-down of troops in 2011....  But unlike some people around here I'm not psychic.

[ Parent ]
About deleting comments (0.00 / 0)
every time you hit "Preview", your browser should save a copy of your unposted comment, so if you accidentally delete them, you can always hit the "Back" button to go to that saved version. Not all blog comments work this way, but this site's does.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton

[ Parent ]
Mighty Mouse (0.00 / 0)
I didn't actually delete it, exactly.  That was just the short version of the story.  I have a new iMac with a mighty mouse.  One of the features is you can duplicate the back and forward arrows in your browser by swiping two fingers left or right.  In reality, I accidentally backed up a page.  When I jumped forward again the post was not there.

Normally I like that functionality, but every now and again, not so much.

But thanks for the advice.  I don't normally hit preview until I'm done.  Using it as a temporary save seems like a good idea.


[ Parent ]
I'm one of those people (0.00 / 0)
who likes to see interim formatted versions of what I'm writing before I'm ready to post it. It's hard for me to separate content from style, even physical style, so I'm constantly hitting Preview.

Also, if you go back and then forward again, doesn't it save the "forward" page? I thought it did, but I'm using Windows 7 and IE8, so maybe it's platform-dependant.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
The lure of tribalism (4.00 / 4)
Nothing gets us to fall in line with "our" team as quickly as something foolish (supposedly) said or done by the opposite team.  It takes a rather constant effort to not allow that to influence how you see the world - there is no cure, one must be constantly vigilant.  I suppose its even more difficult when part of your job is swatting down nonsense.  

The best tool at our disposal is the simple question: "Compared to what?" Politics is replete with comparisons where only one half of the comparison is explicit.  That's no way to think.  It's how one can ignore LBJ.  

I think part of it is a discomfort with arguing substance.  Why make the historical comparison at all? What value does it serve? Who cares about Republicans' everything and kitchen sink strategy? If you want to fight back, just pointing out all the other claims (the Democrats are ramming their agenda down our throats, bonus points for tweaking them for the unfortunate imagery.)

More important, are the things that need to be addressed being addressed? Is the White House using its considerable influence on worthwhile things, or on troubling ones?  

We don't want to have that conversation, because then we might have to talk about our values.

Fetch the smelling salts and get me the fainting couch!

Support the Youth PROMISE Act


We Need Everything We Can Get Our Hands On (0.00 / 0)
I think it's valuable to compare presidential accomplishments, provided it is done fairly and honestly.  I think that honest comparisons give us a set of coordinates for talking sensibly and objectively about political accomplishments.

I absolutely agree that we need to talk about values, and that that's the last thing folks like Obama want, except when they're blowing smoke in a non-discussion and non-dialogue situation.  But when you look at the magnitude of what LBJ accomplished, that factors into our moral arguments as well.  It shows us what can be dared and what can be accomplished, provided that we are not bought off by phony arguments aimed at diminishing the realm of the possible.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
You're right (4.00 / 1)
What I should have said is that we need to be explicit about what we are comparing and think about why we're making the comparison, not that they are not worth making.  

Support the Youth PROMISE Act

[ Parent ]
DOB (4.00 / 1)
Maddow is much younger than she looks, only 37 (DOB April 1, 1973).  Her PhD from Oxford was an add-on to being a Rhodes Scholar there.  Plenty smart but she is dependent on reading about LBJ and those accounts are invariably colored by Vietnam and to a lesser extent by Republican/conservative propaganda.  The only three Presidents with balanced budgets since the start of the Depression were Harry Truman, LBJ, and Bill Clinton.  LBJ did his during a war by raising taxes ("tax surcharge").  Crippling Medicare (he had just started it) or Social Security were not options, thank you.

Deep down, Maddow still believes in the American dream--or wants to, badly (0.00 / 0)
So do I. So do all of us, in our own way. Of course we all have different notions of that that dream is. But fundamentally, it's about the dream that if you work hard and do right, you will be rewarded for it. I.e. that there's justice in the world, not occasionally, but generally, with the exceptions, as horrendous as they sometimes are, just proving the rule. And so she believes in Obama, or WANTS to believe in him, and in his promise, and that for all his failings, he's basically a decent man who's on the right path, and if we stick by him--while occasionally criticizing him gently and civilly, as she soometimes does--we'll do just fine.

Well, he may be a "decent" man, on a personal level, but as a leader, he's been doing some really indecent things, not just exceptions and outliers, but fundamentally--in addition to some very decent things that he's done, I will admit. And progressives like Maddow, while not denying the indecent stuff, really really really likes to focus on the decent stuff, because they want to hold onto the fantasy that we're a basically decent country that occasionally messes up, as do our leaders. It's really a cognitive dissonance thing, albeit more subtle than the one that operates in much of the establishment media. She just doesn't want to accept the reality that while Obama's done some good things, he's messing up on the most important, systemic things, which if not fixed will ultimately make the good things meaningless, because they'll undermine them.

Unfortunately, most Americans like to think in terms of narratives. There are many, but most come down to one variation or another of the American dream, whether or not it's borne out by reality. I don't mean to trash Maddow. She's great and I watch her daily. But there's a Pollyannaish part of her that desperately wants to believe in he fundamental goodness of people, that badly misserves the rest of her otherwise sharp political instincts. I would remind her that to believe in something for any other reason than because it's demonstrably true is to engage in magical thinking. And that's no way to fix our problems. She's hardly an Obamabot, but like them she sometimes elevates her hopes above her better instincts. And that's just unfortunate. Wishing for something to happen has never in the history of the universe made it so.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


Coming Soon (0.00 / 0)
At least hopefully before Netroots Nation, some posts on Just World theory.  I've been collecting some material to write about.

I'm in basic agreement here.  It's a comforting belief, and it's been shown that not only do conservatives hold more strongly to just world theory, but that it contributes to them experiencing higher levels of happiness.

Of course, it's also been show (in unrelated research), that people who are moderately depressed are more insightful.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Her tendency to talk rapidly and without pauses (0.00 / 0)
sometimes strikes me as her subconscious attempt to control or evade reality. I.e. "If I talk real fast and make a lot of points and so long as they make sense, the bogeyman will go away". Except, he doesn't go away. And he doesn't go away because he's not real and doesn't exist. Never has. But reality, on the other hand, does exist, and it's not always pleasant, and no amount of talk can change that or make IT go away. But seeing it for what it is doesn't hurt.

We all have our quirks, even the best of us.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
One reason why Maddow wants to say good things about (0.00 / 0)
Obama and resists saying anything bad about him is that Obama has had lunch with her on more than one occasion. Obama is not having lunch with Glenn Greenwald. Has Maddow been compromised by her social contact? Absolutely. It is human nature, and IMHO, Obama has moved to the right after becoming Pres for some of the same reasons. Still, Olbermann and Maddow deserve our thanks in many instances.

[ Parent ]
I think that the tendency for memory to function in narratives isn't uniquely (4.00 / 3)
American; you can go back to Simonides' Memory Palace and get an idea that the instinctual schematization of data points is pretty foundational to human thought. The issue here, at least as my dad repeatedly insists to me, may be the converse, namely that Maddow doesn't have the narrative experiences of Vietnam etched into her brain. He asserts that reporters and analysts of my generation (I'm a few months younger than Maddow)inevitably look at Vietnam through a backwards lens, starting off with its failures. When, instead, it's very important to look at Vietnam from how it began in terms of salesmanship to the American public. So it's the crumbling of the rosy picture painted by government officials and the media that's difficult for analysts of my generation to grasp on an emotional level. And we can scoff at emotional thinking all we want, but the truth is that emotions are always intertwined with human thought, so when you lack an emotional grasp, you lack a key element of cognition.

So, for him anyway, that's a profound lack that my generation has when evaluating Afghanistan through the lens of Vietnam. He emphasizes that it was the personal stories- from friends, acquaintances, etc.- and the gap between those histories and the offical government-media line on the war, that shifted understanding of the war. Those personal histories have an impact that it's hard for someone, even someone as smart as Maddow, to glean after the war's end.

And, to that end, how many narrative accounts of the Afghanistan War do you see in our media? The media by and large presents it as a series of data points- x and x dead here, etc.- and stays a way from painting a schematized, emotionally resonant picture. I tend to think that's not an accident.


[ Parent ]
REALLY Excellent Points (0.00 / 0)
I think this also applies to Obama.  He really has no grasp of how similarly he's acting to LBJ.  "Just a little war here, to get the Republicans off my back."  In both cases, lying to the American people starts with lying to himself.

Well sure, there are a lot of features in place to make sure it doesn't get as bad as Vietnam.  No draft.  A super-compliant press that doesn't pay any sort of real attention to the war.  Yada, yada, yada. But in the end, it's the same old contradiction of talking peace, acting war that simply has to have all sorts of consequences you can't foresee, particularly since the US is nowhere near the dominant superpower that it was in the 1960s.

For all his talk about honoring the troops, and all his ill-informed hippy punching based on the Spitting Myth, Obama has learned nothing from the on-the-ground experience in Vietnam, and worse yet, he wants to learn nothing from it.  And that's what galls me the most.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
For all the undeserved attacks on "Ivory Towers" (4.00 / 1)
because we truly do need well-trained experts in all facets of life, and they can only be produced by elite schools (en masse at least), there is a grain of truth to them, in that the same schools also tend to produce (inevitably) smooth-talking hacks and linear-thinking technocrats who end up far above their pay grade and making a mess of things for the rest of us.

And Obama shows many signs of being both of the latter. He mastered the art of SEEMING to know what he's talking about, but he didn't master the ACTUALITY of knowing what he's talking about. His glibness is so well-honed, a lot of people don't see it as glibness, and mistake it for actual concern, expertise and intent. Just as Bush expertly played the down home jes' folks Texas oilman, Obama has been expertly playing the brilliant Ivy League constitutional scholar and all-around wonderkind. His glibness IS his area of expertise.

All of which is by way of saying that his performance to date is pretty much what you'd expect from someone who's "smart", but not what he pretends to be, i.e. policies that don't totally suck, with some secondary ones that are actually pretty good, but which overall are far less than meets the eye or what we were led to expect could REALISTICALLY be achieved. Which is to a large extent the result of his having long ago chosen to focus on the APPEARANCE of competence and success, than on its ACTUALITY. And it naturally follows from that, that he'd consciously choose to ignore inconvenient facts and opinions that contradict his predetermined notions of competence and success.

Can the academy account for such tendencies towards short cuts among our "best and brightest", and compensate for it somehow? Or will the cleverest and most ambitious always find ways to game the system, as Obama has?

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
Two DIfferent Questions (0.00 / 0)
I don't think academies can ever eliminate this sort of thing, but they can definitely be much more discouraging of it.  The sad truth is that we're now producing this sort of mentality as a matter of course.  But it can't solely be blamed on the elite colleges and universities.  It's a general sickness of America's elite culture.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
True (0.00 / 0)
But the most talented and successful of today's technocrats tend to come from them. But I agree that we just don't seem to value or inculcate ethics in society anymore, especially among our young. The malignant narcissism of the Reagan era is now deeply enmeshed in our culture and will take years to overcome. To not lie to get ahead almost seems quaint and laughable at this point.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton

[ Parent ]
Good points (0.00 / 0)
I'm half a generation older than Maddow, and so just barely remember the tail end of Vietnam, and have clear memories of Watergate, and so have a more cynical view of politics than do many people more than a few years younger than me, who grew up shielded from the more egregious sort of mis-governance that people of my and previous generations grew up under. Not that Reagan was a peach, but most of the worst aspects of his presidency had insidious rather than visible effects, that most people of Maddow's middle class background just didn't see (unless they knew what to look for).

Complex and often dark reality was out, Morning in America was in, and even people who thought that Reagan was a vile jerk (and he was) tended to just tune out, as opposed to during the Vietnam era, because there wasn't the sort of in your face exposure to harsh reality that the Vietnam generation was exposed to, via TV and personal contacts. During Vietnam, everyone had a TV, coverage of the war wasn't anywhere near as censored (by government OR the media itself) as it is today, we didn't have fake "reality" shows to turn to for escape, and everyone knew someone who knew someone who'd been to Vietnam.

We live in Stepfordian times, in which there's not much genuine passion and outrage, because reality is shielded from view, and Obama fits it to a tee.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
FDR, LBJ & BHO (0.00 / 0)
Paul, as always, a thoughtful, detailed and well-explained post from you...and an interesting thread so far.  Thanks to all commenters.

Just a couple of things to add:

1)  I can understand why Maddow made the argument she did, since we're talking about financial reform this week.  In part because the New Deal/Bretton Woods system was still functioning and largely unchallenged during Johnson's presidency, there are no major financial/banking reforms as part of the Great Society.

2)  Having said that, the blizzard of Great Society legislation passed in 1965 stands up as one of the great presidential/legislative accomplishments in the history of the republic.  

3)  I'm not a fan of Michael Beschloss, but I basically agree with his point cited in Paul's post:  The New Deal (particularly 1933-34 and 1937-38), Johnson in 1965 and Reagan in 1981 are the three great changes in Washington politics/governance in the past century.  It's clear that Obama has ambitions of leaving a comparable legacy.

4)  We have the disadvantage of living in an asymmetric time in both the letter and spirit of Senatorial rules.  The filibuster was a tactic rarely used in Johnson's day.  If (and this is purely hypothetical on my part obviously) Obama were dealing with a Senate that used the filibuster 5-10 times a year, then there are literally hundreds of bills that the House has passed this session that might also have passed the Senate.  (As it is, most of those bills will die without a Senate floor vote.)

5)  Just a personal preference here, or maybe I'm simply betraying my near-complete ignorance of Roosevelt's Good Neighbor Policy, but it seems to me that Obama's foreign policy accomplishments over the past 17 months stand up well against LBJ's and FDR's first 1-2 years.  Obama has negotiated a major nuclear arms treaty, rebuilt US relationships and standing across the globe, begun pulling troops out of Iraq, and reasserted civilian control of the military during wartime.

The late, great Molly Ivins was fond of recounting a lesson she learned from an editor early in her career.  (And I'm paraphrasing here.)  A reporter (newspaper, radio program,TV news show) can't tell the whole truth today.  Today, you can tell a piece of the truth.  Tomorrow, you can come back and tell another piece.  And so on.  That's true for Ivins, for Maddow, and for all of us.


A Couple Of Points (4.00 / 2)
(a) I think you make a good case for some logic, but it still doesn't make up for the total blackout of LBJ.  

(b) Furthermore, Reagan in 1981 simply didn't do anything comparable to FDR or LBJ.  He got a tax cut, and that was pretty much it.  Most of what he accomplished in the way of a conservative agenda was piecemeal, and much of that came in the way of Court appointments.

(c) The lack of symmetry is certainly significant.  But that doesn't alter the reality of what has and has not been accomplished.  It speaks to explaining why certain things weren't done, but it doesn't alter the fact that they weren't done.

(d) Obama started off talking a good game on foreign relations, but as time has passed his actions have fallen far short.  The new Oliver Stone film that I discussed yesterday is about a South America that's largely estranged from the US, and Obama has actually increased the strains, rather than diminishing them.  And, of course, his lock-step backing of Isreal's continued descent into madness has squandered an enormous opportunity that everyone else in the world seems aware of, except for the United States.


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Overall (0.00 / 0)
A well-written, thoughtful, interesting, and incredibly silly argument.

So it seems you're accepting that Obama is the best president since LBJ?  And you consider that a repudiation of the Obamaphiles?

Your basic assumption seems to be that if Obama is not better than LBJ than he is not a good (or possibly even great) president.  This is nonsensical on its face.

If in 2008, people had told me me that after 18 months of the Obama presidency, it would even be legitimate to mention Obama in the same breath as LBJ and FDR, I would have been ecstatic.  Especially, considering that between FDR and LBJ we covered a huge portion of progressive goals for society.  Obama can't pass Medicare again you know?  We already have the Civil Rights Act and SOcial Security   So he is got to make do with Universal Healthcare and repealing DADT.

But that's not your feelings on the matter -- your take away is that Obama is a radically anti-progressive president (judging from other diaries than this one) if he does not easily outclass the best progressive presidents of the the 20th century.

To use chess terminology: ??!

And the epistemological position you put forward here is so strong as to be self-defeating.  It is a dangerous position to claim your opponent is so ignorant that they can't even come to realize their ignorance.  One might then wonder about your competence to judge their competence AND your ability to judge your own competence on the matter.  I certainly shouldn't trust you to tell me (according to you!).

I've found it is always more useful to ascribe some intelligence to your opponent (as you routinely fail to do for 'Obamaphiles' or even the incredibly accomplished Obama himself).  Only by having some sympathy and understanding of their motivations and positions will you have much chance of affecting their decisions.


No, Of Course Not (4.00 / 3)
So it seems you're accepting that Obama is the best president since LBJ?  

I'm not even concerned with any other presidents in this diary.  Why jump to such a conclusion?

And you consider that a repudiation of the Obamaphiles?

It's a repudiation of one kind of Obamaphile argument, one that's gotten some significant play in the last several days.

If in 2008, people had told me me that after 18 months of the Obama presidency, it would even be legitimate to mention Obama in the same breath as LBJ and FDR, I would have been ecstatic.

Except, of course, that it's not legitimate to mention him in the same breath.  That's pretty much the whole point.  Take another look at that list of LBJ's accomplishments in 1965.

So he is got to make do with Universal Healthcare and repealing DADT.

But we're not getting universal healthcare!

We're getting broader healthcare by forcing tens of millions to buy insurance, and if progressive forces grow strong enough in the future this can help lead us toward universal healthcare at some point in the future, but Obama did not get us universal healthcare.

And no question that DADT is morally important, but in the grand scheme of things, it's no grand historical milestone of similar stature to the other things we're talking about here.

But that's not your feelings on the matter -- your take away is that Obama is a radically anti-progressive president (judging from other diaries than this one) if he does not easily outclass the best progressive presidents of the the 20th century.

You should argue about the other diaries in the other diaries, rather than mistakenly overgeneralize about them here.

And the epistemological position you put forward here is so strong as to be self-defeating.  It is a dangerous position to claim your opponent is so ignorant that they can't even come to realize their ignorance.  One might then wonder about your competence to judge their competence AND your ability to judge your own competence on the matter.  I certainly shouldn't trust you to tell me (according to you!).

To the contrary, I realize that all of us are capable of self-delusion in the same fashion.  And I think it's important to actually listen to and respond to those who think differently.  Of course, this doesn't mean having the same fruitless conversation with latest 13-year old who just read Atlas Shrugged.  But it does mean asking myself some difficult questions, and attending to new arguments that challenge my existing assumptions.

My diary on the conservative ick factor is one such example.  Jon Haidt's work is initially challenging to all of us who have focused exclusively on the morality of harm/care and fairness/reciprocity, and though I haven't written about it much, I have been silently struggling with it, and that diary is a product of that struggle.  I did not simply ignore it, hoping it would go away.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Continuing from the DeLong post... (4.00 / 1)
I'm wondering how strictly we should take this analogy.  Anosognosia is striking not (just) because sufferers don't know what they don't know, but in how they avoid learning what they don't know.  The former state, particularly as it applies to skills and knowledge, is not particularly interesting: we all know that a) we don't know lots of stuff, and b) we don't know the boundaries of what we don't know very well, and often mistakenly think we know more than we do.  If that were the only problem, we'd all just go about our lives making the best judgments we could, taking caution where we didn't know stuff or thought we might not know stuff, working to better inform the ignorant on topics we were experts on, and hoping to be better informed in turn on our weak points.  

The problem is the avoidance issue: not just not knowing something, but actively working to avoid learning it -- while of course also not realizing that one is working to avoid learning.  This is what was so striking about the old Sacks stories, and what is equally puzzling about understanding the conservative (or authoritarian if you prefer) mind.  But I wonder how psycho- or neurologically analogous the two processes really are.  Is Jeffrey Goldberg's avoidance of paradigm-challenging information that similar to the woman's avoidance of information revealing her paralyzed side?  

Glenn Beck's avoidance at least, it seems to me, is nothing like anosognosia -- he ignores evidence he doesn't like, and is even unaware of that process, but only because he has no particular desire to be accurately informed about the world.  It's the woman who apparently does wish to know the truth, yet avoids it, and the well-intentioned conservatives who appear to be working towards truth, that more intriguing.  First, because it seems like there might actually be some headway made in convincing them; second, because it still seems mysterious how such a mechanism might work, and what it might be like from the inside; and third, because presumably versions of such mechanisms are at work inside us all.

The last two still feel like mysteries to me, even with the anosognosia analogy.  Or perhaps because of it, since the point of these stories is to make understanding the interiority of the anosognosic all the more baffling.  On the other hand, each time I feel like, Altemeyer and Tversky notwithstanding, I have no idea how this works, I think of the contradictions even we liberals embrace.  For instance, ask even a lefty how he/she justifies not giving away all his/her money to the dozens of starving children who could be saved with it, and you'll generally get a nice dataset of ready-made rationalizations and knowledge-avoidance.  


Sorting Out How These Different Phenomena Fit Together Is An Ongoing Challenge (0.00 / 0)
And it certainly helps to have thoughtful commentators like yourself around to keep us on track.

We're really still just in the infancy of understanding how all this stuff works.

At least, I hope were in the infancy, since that implies that we're competent enough to learn a great deal more than we already know!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I don't comment on the Internet much but I have to say this (4.00 / 1)
Could someone actually read the diary before they start their critical analysis comment that completely misses the point of the diary, then proceeds to pillory the writer for claims he has neither made nor implied. The utter wrongness of it makes my skin crawl.

Rachel Maddow (0.00 / 0)
Sorry but one has to say some things:

If LBJ was such a great president then where is the structural economic change?  There was no large-scale government intervention in the economy-not even the war brought about such developments, with economic and fiscal consequences that are well known.

There was no pro-labor, anti-business legislation.

There were no universal social services even proposed, let alone passed.  Most of the programs were targeted ones that concentrated upon the very poor and African-Americans, no one else (it was FDR, not LBJ, that had a program that targeted Native-Americans).  The middle-income groups-in particular, the working class-were neglected.

The end of the 60's were just terrible; this person-just a boy then-remembers it well.  If all those programs that LBJ passed were so great, then would it not follow that the country would not have been in such a state?  In fact at the end of the decade America still did not have half the programs that the other advanced nations.

In re gender:  FDR appointed the first woman in the cabinet, as well as a host of other appointments.  Also, there was a great upsurge in employment, especially during the war, which was never erased.

This argument has been bruited about for some time now.  One gets the impression that it is being pushed because some people cannot bear to look with clear eyes upon the period 1960-80, as basically a nightmarish, catastrophic period from which this country has never recovered, and whose ultimate beneficiary was Ronald Reagan.  It's sole achievement was civil rights, which leads to another suspicion-that many people on the left do not care about anybody except the persecuted groups and the very poor, not the working class and "class" issues.  Yet it is also realized that such issues and helping is what the left should be about, and therefore-to square the circle-people keep on making out the 60's and 70's to more progressive, and more constructive, than they really were.  


Sorry, But This Is Just Ludicrous (4.00 / 1)
It's absolutely true that the US has never had a welfare state comparable in scope to those of Europe.  We are an outlier.  But a large part of the reason for that is race, since it's been well established that support for welfare-state type programs is correlated with the degree of racial and/or ethinc homogeneity. And one of the defining aspects of the the 1960s was that we finally turned the corner on getting rid off and delegitimizing legally entrenched white supremacy.

And, of course, thanks to Edith Greene and others, we also got rid of legally entrenched male supremacy in it's most fundamental forms.

To pretend that those accomplishments are trivial, even non-existent, is just downright delusional.

Do I wish that the sorts of sweeping change you allude to had been accomplished?  Of course!  But when have such changes ever been accomplished in the US?

So, back the framework of political reality in US history--the only possible framework to use in judging US presidents.  And within that framework, FDR and LBJ are clearly the two big heavy lifters, and no one else even comes close.

That doesn't mean they were saints.  That doesn't excuse their sins.  But it does give them their due for the scope of the domestic legislation that got passed into law.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]




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