Obama's anti-base politics

by: Paul Rosenberg

Tue Sep 21, 2010 at 12:30


In my diary yesterday, "Barack Obama: The conservatives' liberal / The futility of neo-liberal identity politics", Mark Matson and I got into a little back-and-forth that deserves more focus.  It all started when he hit me back:

    But he does

    All I would add is that it would be quite a different matter if Obama routinely complained about others who've given him a great deal more static than we have.

    But he does.  He complains about the right all the time.  There were several examples just this past week or so.  We amplify his complaints about the left and dismiss his complaints about the right, but don't confuse our filter with what actually gets said.

Now, Mark did have a point, but so did I--though I didn't articulate it as well as I should have.  The important word when I wrote that originally--which for some reason I lost touch with in responding--was "routinely".  Obama only occassionally complains about the right, and when he does so, it's usually tied to very specific, objectively verifiable complaints: "They drove the economy into the ditch."  His routine is to praise them for God-knows-what reason.  And this is the distinction I originally had in mind, which I totally failed to re-articulate in the back-and-forth with Mike.

Fortunately, Paul Krugman posted something on his blog today that helps push this forward:

The Anti-Dog Whistler

So Obama's nominee to head OMB told a Senate panel that deregulation didn't lead to the financial crisis. Urk. I think he may technically be right - it wasn't so much deregulation as the failure to extend regulation to keep up with financial innovation that did it. Still, talk about stepping on the message.

And this gets to a point I've been trying to formulate: while the Obama's political problems are largely due to a lousy economy, it's also true that the administration seems to go out of its way to alienate its supporters.

What I think of is the contrast between how Obama operates and how Bush operated. Bush and his handlers were masters of dog-whistle politics - of conveying to their base, in ways that went under the radar of mainstream media, the message that he was really one of them. The vaguely Biblical language about evildoers, for example, struck most mainstream commentators as being slightly odd, but never mind; what it conveyed to the religious right, however, was the message that Bush was a dominionist at heart.

Obama, however, seems to go out of his way to convey the message that although he rode to office on a wave of progressive enthusiasm, he and his people don't respect the people who got him where he is. There are the gratuitous jabs at the "professional left", the "both sides are wrong" rhetoric even as the right goes all out to destroy him, and stuff like Lew's testimony. I mean, how hard would it be to have a little message discipline here?

In fact, it often seems to me that there's an almost compulsive aspect to the administration's anti-dog whistling. Maybe it comes from hanging out with the political and business establishment, which leads to a desire to seem respectable by dissing the DFHs. But memo to the president: Wall Street will hate you anyway. All you're doing is undermining the enthusiasm of people you need.

Krugman isn't really anywhere close to the heart of problem in any rigorous sense, so far as I'm concerned. The heart of the problem is neo-liberalism itself, and Krugman, for all his plain old-fashioned liberalism that has put him so at odds with Obama, still retains a lot of professional neo-liberalism as an economist (he still doesn't seem to have read Minsky, for example, or at least not in any depth).  But Krugman does have a pretty good soft sense of what's wrong, and he's hit on something here that while hardly original is (1) rarely acknowledged by the M$M, and (2) a portal that can lead to much more substantial points.

I've explained it before in terms of Obama & his Third "Third Way" cohort seeking to consolidate an American version of the elite-sustaining conservative welfare state model pioneered by Otto von Bismark, and analytically delineated by Gøsta Esping-Andersen in The Three Worlds of Welfare Capitalism.  But there's more to it than that, given America's unique place in history as a fading world-dominating power, and Obama's particularly identity and background.

Paul Rosenberg :: Obama's anti-base politics

Not least is his 2000 loss to Congressman Bobby Rush.  That's where, arguably, Obama clearly learned that he had to be anti-base in order to succeed, since he could never really be one with the base.  But he could appear to be, which is where his career headed next--and it hasn't stopped since.  Of course, his record of failure as a community organizer provided an important backdrop for all this, but if he had won against Rush (which, of course, was never a realistic possibility), one could at least imagine that he might pursue politics as a means for redeeming those failures.

More likely--given my deep belief in multiple causation and over-determination--I'd say that winning against Rush in 2000 would have lead him in a very similar policy direction, but with a tad less hostility to the base in his makeup, and that relatively small difference just might have been enough to lead to major differences that could have produced a very different outcome from what we now witness.  Consider, for example, if he'd had responded to Snowe & Collin's shafting of school kids in the stimulus battle by pulling a Lady Gaga on them, and bringing real heat to bear on them for the complete bogosity of their moderate personas.  Just a little bit of that willingness to act in the spirit of the activist base to defend the real interests of the vast middle-class majority would have made him a very different sort of President, and made the Senate a very different place as well.

As it is, I think Obama's loss to Rush merely served to reinforce an entire constellation of other similar or congruent influences, many of them structural, applying to the Democratic Party as a whole.  But politics, I believe, like just about any sport, is a game of inches, in which incremental differences can have world-shattering consequences.  We may argue all we want about what thos differences may or may not be, but the consequences are quite clear.  Obama is not one of us, although he has a significant investment in confusing the matter.  And thus, we should have a considerable investment in unconfusing things.

The chief reason that conservative elites empower their base is that the base believes in the worship of authority, so that works out well for the conservative power elites.  This isn't at all the case on the left.  There is certainly respect for authority, and rational support for institutions and leadership that produce results.  But this is far less binding and reliable than what the right has, so elite distrust for the liberal/progressive base is quite "rational" in their own narrow, self-interested terms.

Things are changing now, of course.  The failure of conservative elites brought to a head by Bush's many misadventures has produced an opening for fascist-style upwellings that don't submit readily to established conservative elites.  And so things are a bit messy right now.  But here on the left, the old rules stay pretty much in place, all the moreso with the help of a fresh new face.


Tags: (All Tags)
Print Friendly View Send As Email
Hold up the bumper sticker again! (4.00 / 1)
The argument that NOW is not the time to criticize Obama -- let alone Dump him -- is that it will endanger our congressional candidates this November.

But I think there is a strong argument to be made that association with Obama is no small part of what's dragging them down, that to some extent they are distancing themselves from him, but perhaps they should move from distancing to outright denunciation.  NOW!

I have no love for ANY Democrat who voted for a healthcare bill that restricted abortion rights and imposed a mandate that is essentially a subsidy to the insurance industry.  But love aside, how congressional Democrats would have acted was also grossly affected by the so-called leadership that Obama provided.

The liberals crowed that healthcare reform would become popular because it showed that the Democrats could at least pass something.  How's that turning out?


What's dragging them down is themselves. (4.00 / 2)
Association with the Party Leader in the White House is a part of that, of course, but really it's much bigger than that. This is why congressional approval ratings are actually much, much lower than Obama's, yes?

Congressional Dem leadership basically abdicated it's responsibilities many years ago. Oversight? Who does that anymore? The most congressional leaders feel obligated to do, even in the face of terrible criminality like the torture of innocents, is write a strongly-worded letter... to which they get little more than chuckles from the White House, regardless of which party is living there at the time.

It's pretty clear at this point that Barack Obama is not a genuine leader in any real sense. He's mostly a corporate lobbyist. The only entities on whose behalf he acts are corporations, torturers and the military-industrial complex. Outside that agenda, he's quite happy to let congress do it's thing.

And that's exactly what they do.  

"Nobody is actually starving. The hobos, for example, are better fed than they have ever been. Hobos are eating well, in fact one had ten meals in a single day." -- Pres. Herbert Hoover, 1932


[ Parent ]
Legislatures ROUTINELY Have Low Approval Ratings. (0.00 / 0)
It's not just Congress.  State legislatures also tend to have low approval ratings.  It's worse now than usual, but you need to be aware of historical baselines in order to argue intelligently.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
True dat, but I believe I am aware of what you speaketh. (4.00 / 2)
Perhaps I wasn't clear, but if you look at the trend-line on congressional approval just over the last two years, you see the Dems came in with a serious wave of APPROVAL--approval that appears as an outlier more broadly. The GOP sucked then and they still suck now in the polls, but the Dems have lost a lot of public support.

That's all been laid waste in the ensuing period, so I don't think I'm far off the mark. I take into account the historical baselines when I say this, as you so rightly point out.

That said, I mostly look at Dem approval of Dems. What the GOP thinks of Dems is irrelevant. Indies vary greatly from state to state in composition, so major caveats there as well--that really needs to be broken down to get a decent picture. Congress doesn't have a "personality" the way POTUS does, for good or ill, so POTUS will stay higher.

Dem approval of a Dem-controlled congress is tanking, which rather looks to me like a disapproval of policy and politics (what the party is about, after all) than anything involving personalities. Except for Harry Reid, of course, because well, he sucks on all counts!

"Nobody is actually starving. The hobos, for example, are better fed than they have ever been. Hobos are eating well, in fact one had ten meals in a single day." -- Pres. Herbert Hoover, 1932


[ Parent ]
2008 Was A REALIGNING Election (4.00 / 4)
That's what that high approval showed.

Only Obama didn't treat it like that.  He did the exact opposite of what a realigning election calls for.  And since it was a relatively weak realigning election, Congress didn't have the power to simply force a more progressive agenda through.  So the failure to govern in accord with what people both wanted and needed produced exactly the sort of result that you'd expect.


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Yep. No argument there. (4.00 / 2)
But it wasn't just Obama. It was Pelosi and Reid as well who did precisely what you say.

Hence a trend-line that looks like the downward leg of the Col d'España stage of the Tour de France.

"Nobody is actually starving. The hobos, for example, are better fed than they have ever been. Hobos are eating well, in fact one had ten meals in a single day." -- Pres. Herbert Hoover, 1932


[ Parent ]
Reid, Yes, Pelosi Not So Much (4.00 / 7)
Considering the makeup of the House Dem caucus, Pelosi passed a great deal of relatively good legislation that simply went nowhere in the Senate. This, in turn, hampered her ability to pass more such legislation as time went on.  She was institutionally the weakest of the three, and yet she did far and away the most.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Good point. (4.00 / 1)
I'm becoming increasingly harsh on Pelosi, but it's also true that it's not always fair of me to do that.

"Nobody is actually starving. The hobos, for example, are better fed than they have ever been. Hobos are eating well, in fact one had ten meals in a single day." -- Pres. Herbert Hoover, 1932

[ Parent ]
I disagree (0.00 / 0)
I'm going to side with Ed Schultz in that I see it as a mistake for Democrats to run away from Obama and health care reform.  Part of that is a failure to sell the health care bill.  As Rachel Maddow noted last night, no one was trumpeting September 23 as an important date.

If Democrats embraced HCR, they would at least be perceived as standing for something.  Instead, some of them act embarrassed, as if the only reason anything at all was passed, however weak, was to pander to the party's left wing.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both


[ Parent ]
The reason to run away from the healthcare bill ... (4.00 / 5)
... is that the healthcare bill is a disaster.

Apart from the minor matter of throwing abortion rights under the bus, as the implementation of the mandate grows closer, hatred of that godawful bill will only grow.

As the insurance industry successfully games every loophole in the bill, hatred of that godawful bill will only grow.

The name on that bill is Obama's, and those that defend it and him will reap the whirlwind along with him.


[ Parent ]
The reason to run on health care (4.00 / 1)
Is that it offers the best chance to differentiate Republicans and Democrats.  It's about as popular as anything else Democrats have done recently.  The most valid reason for running away from Obama and health care is if you think Democrats' biggest need is to appeal to moderates and independents.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both

[ Parent ]
If it's the best chance ... (4.00 / 4)
"...to differentiate Republicans and Democrats," we are truly in deep trouble.

It's about as popular as anything else Democrats have done recently.

Like the war in Afghanistan and assassination without trial of American citizens and the Catfood Commission.  Yes, that may be a true statement.  But not a very good argument.


[ Parent ]
Obama's biggest need is to appeal to me (4.00 / 5)
What do I care if he appeals to independents and moderates?  He's stopped appealing to me.  I hate the wars. I'm disgusted with the sell-out on healthcare.  And he's going to give my Social Security to Alan Simpson the day after the election.  


[ Parent ]
I blame Obama for creating the Cat Food Commission (4.00 / 1)
but only Congress can give it away. Last I checked, only 55 House members (and a couple of Senators) have stated that they won't cut SS.

Politics is the art of the possible, but that means you have to think about changing what is possible, not that you have to accept it in perpetuity.

[ Parent ]
Don't tell Republicans (4.00 / 3)
All they need to do is run a very truthful ad stating that only 55 Democrats support maintaining Social Security benefits.  

And they wonder why I yawn when they tell me how important it is that I vote for the Democratic Party.  


[ Parent ]
It is a source of frustration for me... (4.00 / 1)
that Obama's supporters on the so-called Left, and Obama's critics on the Right can be as sloppy and as imprecise as they choose relative to his "accomplishments"/"failures", but his critics from the Left are required to be as technically precise as was required to land the Rover on Mars.  I get that virtue is its own reward but it's not unreasonable to wish that the "rules" could be the same for all.

Apropos to which, Julian Sanchez did an interesting blog post about honesty. If my reading comprehension skills are stable, I gather that Obama's supporters on the Left and his critics on the Right achieve a level of honesty without the intellectual honesty that seems required by his critics from the Left. /whine

I'm finding Obama-as-neoliberal a tough sell.  It's as though the word neoliberal causes people's brains to click off.  Or, to discover that they have no intellectual scaffold on which to hang it and, therefore, cannot process the concept.  And, it seems so plain to me that neoliberalism is where the elites of either party would be happy to take us (which variations in rhetorical flourish, of course), because it's an ideology that gives the freest rein to the corporations who provide those elite with the greatest source of their personal wealth.  The Left/Right, Democrat/Republican, Liberal/Conservative distinctions have never seemed to obscure more than they illuminate than now.  There just isn't enough definition within each of them, given they way they are most typically used/abused.

Sidenote:  Paul, at one point you indicated you might write a piece on Obama's failure as a community organizer.  It appears that, as a frequent - but not obsessive - reader, I missed it since you've referenced it here.  Might I plead for a link?


Why "Neo-Liberal" (4.00 / 2)
Most people may not be thinking in much depth when using the term "neo-liberal", but since I've been familiar with it for roughly 30 years--beginning with its use in reference to the IMF & structural adjustment policies (SAPs)--that's not the case with me.

What I haven't done previously, however, is try to craft a holistic account of it, particularly given that it first crystalized as a description of policies which might be followed in economic foreign affairs by wide range of people with different political & ideological identifications in other respects.  Now that Obama has been presented as the embodiment of the "progressive" moniker, it seems particularly urgent to develop a comprehensive analysis, the better to distinguish that which he is from that which he pretends to be--but not just him alone.  Rather, the entire ideological ball of wax... or wane, as the case may be.

p.s.  No, I never did get around to writing that post about Obama's failure as a community organizer.  But I think there's clearly enough around that's been written about it that I don't really need to write a post myself just to reference it.


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Most of what I find about Obama's... (0.00 / 0)
...failures as a community organizer are written by anti-liberals. They're harshly critical of Obama's work in the late 90s and early 00s in South Chicago, of course, but I assumed they're biased and may not be reporting the truth. Were his efforts to add low-income housing as bad as they look? Were they mostly a boondoggle on that benefited the developers more than the poor?

Who has written a good report of that part of Obama's career?


[ Parent ]
Mostly (4.00 / 1)
It's just a matter of eeking out crumbs.  It's not that it was his fault, or anything.  It's incredibly hard to put together successful community organizing campaigns, anywhere in the country right now.  Those who are successful generally have been at it for a decade or more.  Obama was simply far too much of a short-timer to pull that off.  He was very good at motivating people, it seems.  But that's only one piece of the puzzle.  And he never liked the confrontation part, which is absolutely crucial to any sort of real success.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
It's too bad that you're finding (0.00 / 0)
that neo-liberal is a tough sell. It's an apt description, and I thought it was a conceptual framework that people knew and understood, liberals v. neo-liberals. That's certainly the framework within which I've forged my political identity. (One of them.)

But maybe we should use a less precise but no less accurate term to describe Obama and his ilk: Wall Street Democrats.

The Labor Wing v. the Wall Street Wing.  


[ Parent ]
Nope (0.00 / 0)
I heard the term several years ago, but only really began to understand it recently.  I'm no political expert, but I take it for granted that I know more than the average person who doesn't read political blogs all the time.

I think it is a term that should be promoted, though.


[ Parent ]
Why "neoliberal"? (4.00 / 2)
Why not just plain "corporatist" or "conservative" or, better yet, "corporatist conservative"?  They're basically the same thing.

From Wikipedia:

Neoliberalism is a market-driven approach to economic and social policy based on neoclassical theories of economics that maximise the role of the private business sector in determining the political and economic priorities of the state.

Sounds basically like economic conservatism to me.


[ Parent ]
This issue (4.00 / 1)
is way too big to be settled by Wikipedia.  Also probably too big to be settled in a paragraph.  For one thing, neo-liberalism isn't just about economics (even the quote you have here makes that clear). For another, it fails to tell us anything about the goals pursued, as opposed to the means used.  

Politics is the art of the possible, but that means you have to think about changing what is possible, not that you have to accept it in perpetuity.

[ Parent ]
Not all Neo-Liberals are tone deaf the way Obama is. (4.00 / 4)
Bill Clinton was a Neo-Liberal who shared all of Obama's policy goals, but he also was a better politician in the sense of knowing what he could and couldn't get away with. Talented politicians, regardless of ideology, are people who can readily make those distinctions.

Clinton got away with Welfare Deform (sic) and that led to a doubling of the extreme poverty rate in this country--or so it seems at the moment. But he couldn't get away with looting Social Security, so he stopped short of that when a certain blue dress became a household word.

(Sidenote: A big shout-out to Monica Lewinski for saving Social Security!)

Clinton was really good at schmoozing people. Obama... not so much. Indeed, it would be difficult to find a more tone-deaf pol who isn't a Republican at this point. While Clinton could wax on for a couple hours with "I feel yer pain" and have the audience chanting hosannas,  Obama is cold and he simply filibusters when people complain, as he did on CNBC when a woman told him, "I'm exhausted of trying to defend you."

I think perhaps Obama is a more resolute Neo-Liberal who places the agenda ahead of actually selling it in a stylish fashion. It's pretty obvious he thinks he can get away with anything at all. That might land him in trouble at some point.

"Nobody is actually starving. The hobos, for example, are better fed than they have ever been. Hobos are eating well, in fact one had ten meals in a single day." -- Pres. Herbert Hoover, 1932


[ Parent ]
Clinton knew he was a neo-liberal (4.00 / 2)
I don't think Obama does.  Seriously.  Near as I can tell, Obama operates in Clinton's neo-liberal frame, but thinks it is the liberal frame.  Thus the confusion and disconnect.

(But also the hope.)


[ Parent ]
I'm afraid I don't see that at all. (4.00 / 2)
I don't see how that's even possible. Then again, trying to divine "what Obama really thinks" requires a level of Kremlinology that I'm afraid I don't possess. I don't know the guy, for starters.

But I don't see how a guy who taught at the Cathedral of Neo-Liberalism for 12 years doesn't understand what Neo-Liberalism is and what it's about.

Indeed, I don't see anything even remotely "liberal" about Obama at all. He's not open-minded. He's not even all that keen on rationalism. If he were, I think his policy preferences would be markedly different. He would have been more than open to the Public Option, for starters, as that would have been seriously sound policy. So it's his extremely rigid corporatist proclivities that lead me to see him as a genuinely pious Neo-Liberal and nothing else.

So I guess I see this the other way around. While Clinton definitely knew he was a Neo-Lib, he also knew there were limits to what he could get away with.

Obama doesn't seem to have any such restraints. So who's more devout?

"Nobody is actually starving. The hobos, for example, are better fed than they have ever been. Hobos are eating well, in fact one had ten meals in a single day." -- Pres. Herbert Hoover, 1932


[ Parent ]
It's Much More Complicated, Actually (4.00 / 4)
Clinton was a genuine economic populist, which put him at odds with the hard-core neolibs.  He got all sorts of shit from the DLC in his first two years especially.  They liked him more once he started triangulating, but remember triangulation was his defensive fall-back strategy.  It was not his first choice.

Obama thinks triangulation is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Yes and no (4.00 / 2)
Clinton was a former chair of the DLC. His initial triangulation had more to do with race and crime (if that's not redundant) than economics. So he took time off from campaigning to fry a black man. And pledged to reform welfare. Etc. At the same time, he struck economic populist notes. Just before he took office, Rubin sunk his bloody teeth into him, and we were on to NAFTA and balanced budgets.

After Dems got crushed in 2004. Dick Morris came on and we were into triangulation full bore, political interests meeting neoliberalism.  


[ Parent ]
That Was Despicable, But It Wasn't Triangulation (4.00 / 1)
Rather, it was typical of how populism without a left-wing inflection routinely succunmbs to elements of racism and other manifestations of cultural conservatism.

As I've described in some detail previously, his original plan for welfare reform was much more of plan to make work pay and enable more people to work than it was a punitive scheme.  It was only after the GOP took over Congress that things changed, and Clinton at first resisted the conservatives' repurposing of his efforts.  I wouldn't defend him as a good buy in this process, but he was far from an enthusiastic bnefit cutter.  He's much more conservative nowadays, taking "credit" for myth of "welfare reform success", than he was when the process was under way.

Finally, yes, of course he was a founding member of the DLC.  Which is why the other folks involved in it were so pissed at him.  He actually believed it was a different way to advance a basically populist agenda.  That was actually a ruse, of course.  But he really believed it.  At least in the beginning.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
How do you define NAFTA (4.00 / 1)
Which was the first big ticket item out of the box, long before 1994 and Dick Morris?

Surely the neo-libs weren't pissed about that. I think you're partially misremembering Clinton 92 - 94.  


[ Parent ]
??? (0.00 / 0)
NAFTA is.  It's not for me to define.  I was simply trying to set the record straight about Clinton's 1992 campaign.  He did run as a populist, ("Putting people first", fighting for those who "worked hard and played by the rules", etc.), and he did try to qualify his conservative concessions--such as NAFTA--in ways that made them compatible with his core populist thrust.

I'm not defending him, mind you.  He fucking killed Ricky Rae Rector to win the White House, for God's sake.  (The one person I think that never made it onto the bogus "Clinton body count".)  I just want to be very clear on the facts.  If one wants to build political theories with any chance of success--which I do--one has to respect the basic facts.  When you drop the labels, and look at the issues they focused on running on, Clinton was actually more of a traditional New Deal economic populist than either Mondale or Dukakis were in their campaigns.  This why he should be seen as a sort of transitional figure, who started out with a genuine belief that he was continuing a legacy that he ended up eventually working to destroy (most notably with the end of Glass-Steagall.)

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
And I pointed out (4.00 / 1)
a) that he ran as something of an economic populist
b) that he turned around, at least partially, not as you claimed, after he started losing, but after he was elected. Hence NAFTA.
c) that he triangulated during his campaign. Hence welfare reform and Billy Ray Rector (yes, it was populist but it was also triangulation.)

And I forgot to mention the most obvious example of triangulation: Sister Souljah. That was during the campaign, perhaps the most classic example of triangulation.

You could make the case, as some have, that Clinton intended to triangulate on cultural issues in order to "clear the way" for progressive populist economic policies.

But you can't make the case -- as you do above -- that he didn't triangulate during the campaign or that his economic populism lasted until he "started losing." It lasted roughly until the end of his first meeting with Rubin.

I know it's not your habit to admit when you've misfired but now would be as good as time as any to start.  


[ Parent ]
You're Confusing Two or Three Different Things (0.00 / 0)
General elections are almost always about fighting to capture the center. Goldwater '64 is the rare exception, not the rule.  Hence (c) is simply a ludicrous conflation of a version of normal campaign behavior--however noxious it might have been--with what was very clearly a strategic adaptation after the 1994 elections.  Was there some continuity?  Of course. Were the two identical? Of course not.

My argument has been misrepresented enough times already in this thread.

Bored now.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
It's quite obvious that Clinton ran to the left and governed to the center (0.00 / 0)
just like another, more recent Democratic President we all know and love.  And this centrist governance started in 1993, not 1995.  It was significantly better from 1993-1995 than it was from 1995-2001, but still not quite a liberal's dream.

Have you not read Locked in the Cabinet by Robert Reich?  Let's put it this way, if Clinton really had been a flaming leftist from 1993-1995, Reich probably wouldn't have needed to write a book in the first place.


[ Parent ]
I Never Said That Clinton Was A Liberal's Dream in '93-'94 (0.00 / 0)
I"m really tired of being asked to defend arguments I've never made.


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
No, he wasn't (4.00 / 3)
Clinton was a genuine economic populist, which put him at odds with the hard-core neolibs.

NAFTA was the key priority of the early Clinton years, a claim supported both the actions we observed and according to insiders regarding internal dynamics. This is all pre-triangulation era. NAFTA was a neo-liberal dream. He also appointed Rubin to run the economy, not the decision of an economic populist.

Clinton may have been an economic populist in 1980. He was not after that, including during the campaign in 1991-1992. He was not on Inauguration Day. At no point during his administration is there a shred of evidence he was an economic populist, much less a genuine economic populist. He spouted populist rhetoric on occasion when in his interest but there is nothing in his record as president to support your claim, in my judgment. I am shocked to read you make this claim, especially without accompanying credible evidence.

What is your evidence for your very strong claim? Evidence in terms of policy or appointments not mere words in New Hampshire trying to "come back" from a stinging defeat. The only possible evidence I can imagine is his fairly modest tax increase on the wealthy but that is dwarfed by all his other moves and was not used to fund progressive policies in any way at any point.  

"No, his mind is not for rent to any god or government" - Neil Peart


[ Parent ]
If You Remember Your Timing (0.00 / 0)
Clinton didn't endorse NAFTA until well into the 1992 election, and when he did so, he stipulated that there needed to be strong labor and environmental side-agreements.  Of course, I'd been fighting free trade agreements for several years prior to that, so I knew what a load of crap that was, but this was clearly something that Clinton latched onto late in the campaign, as opposed to something he'd chosen as part of his core strategy, and some still held out hope that he'd eventually scrap it on the very good and quite justifiable grounds that the side-agreements simply weren't (a) strong enough or (b) enforceable.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
OK but not persuaded (4.00 / 2)
I have no doubt about your progressive bona fides but do regarding Clinton's. Your response suggests two things to me that I have a hard time accepting at face value.

One, that populist rhetoric during the campaign made Clinton a genuine populist, your initial characterization. I believe your standards are higher than that. "Putting people first?" C'mon, isn't that obviously empty rhetoric? Surely we could dredge up even more powerful sounding rhetoric from Obama during the campaign. I doubt he was supporting NAFTA contingent on side agreements that he (secretly) hoped would allow him to scuttle the trade agreement. Especially in light of what we later learned when he was in office. I am sure you have heard Bonior on all this.

Especially given, two, that prior to the campaign his history the second time around as AR Governor and DLCer provided a much stronger basis for pegging him as a neo-liberal than mere rhetorical flourishes in the midst of a campaign, especially when one considers who his strongest opponents were in that primary season (i.e. a tactical advantage in sounding like a populist).

I suppose it's not really an important debate because no one here is arguing Clinton was a populist president. Nor should they. For better or worse there was no point during the run up to the convention that I considered Clinton anything other than a slick-talking ConservaDem. Still don't. That's why I never came to support him in that election or in his re-election. Detested him from the get-go and throughout.

"No, his mind is not for rent to any god or government" - Neil Peart


[ Parent ]
Let's look at the framing of the Clinton-Democratic Platform in 1992 (0.00 / 0)
WASHINGTON, June 25- In a final draft of its platform for this year's elections, the Democratic Party not only attacks the Reagan-Bush Administrations, but also spurns much of the "big government theory" that Democrats have embraced for decades.

The Democratic National Committee today issued the final draft, which reflects the political philosophy of Gov. Bill Clinton, who has clinched the party's Presidential nomination.

The draft is implicitly critical of the party's old thinking and old solutions.

"We reject both the do-nothing government of the last 12 years as well as the big government theory that says we can hamstring business and tax and spend our way to prosperity," the draft says. "Instead, we offer a third way."

The "third way" is a nickname for Mr. Clinton's political philosophy, which, he says, tries to steer a course between laissez-faire capitalism and welfare-state economics.

Much of the platform echoes themes developed by the Democratic Leadership Council, a group of moderate Democrats headed until last year by Mr. Clinton. New View of Federal Role

The draft platform rejects the assumption that the government can provide a solution to every social problem.

The 1992 platform reflects an effort by some Democrats to move away from old-style liberalism, rooted in the political orthodoxy of the New Deal and labor unions, and toward a more centrist position.

But Mark E. Steitz, a spokesman for the Democratic National Committee, said it was inaccurate to describe the 1992 platform as being simply "to the right" of platforms adopted by the party since 1972. Democrats prefer to say that they have transcended the old left-right divisions.

Transcended the old-left right division. Sounds like anyone you know?

Trying to draw distinctions between Obama's neo-liberalism and Clinton ain't that easy.

http://www.nytimes.com/1992/06...



[ Parent ]
And Yet (0.00 / 0)
There was plenty of Third Way fuming at him after he was elected.


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
A Couple of Points (4.00 / 1)
Your response suggests two things to me that I have a hard time accepting at face value.

One, that populist rhetoric during the campaign made Clinton a genuine populist, your initial characterization. I believe your standards are higher than that. "Putting people first?" C'mon, isn't that obviously empty rhetoric?

This is a really murky area, unless you rely overly much on hindsight.  For one thing, there's a looooong history of American populists--particularly in & from the South, whose governance falls far short of their campaigning.  Compared to that sad history, Clinton actually did better than one might expect, sad to say.  For another thing, it was this campaign populism that people voted for--and Clinton seemed to recognize and respect that a good deal more than, say, Obama felt tied to what got people excited about him.  For a third, I'm trying to recreate the conditions of the time, and how things turned out subsequently are not how they inevitably had to have.

Now, as I've tried to undescore several times, I'm not defending Clinton here. I'm simply trying to avoid falling into simplistic cartoon mode, which can't possibly be the foundation for sophisticated thinking.  The fact is that Clinton did upset a lot of other Third Way types who thought he had betrayed them.  And you just can't make sense of that without getting past a cartoon picture of Clinton.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
still not persuasive (0.00 / 0)
Just a couple of things to add. As I said, I saw through Clinton's faux populism before the convention, before the election, before the triangulation. I am not pleased that subsequent events confirmed my suspicions, but my assessment then relied on what I saw and sensed. There is no hindsight needed or invoked. Claiming no special insight or historical knowledge, then or now. In my own way I too am reflecting on the circumstances then occurring and not relying on the benefit of hindsight. As I said, it strikes me as odd to take a few Third Way critiques issued during the heat of a campaign in which Clinton had tactical reasons to strike a populist pose as a firmer basis for assessing his thinking than his previous behavior and statements over a decade as a trailblazing DLC "centrist" Democrat.

As far as Clinton doing better than other Southern Dems striking a populist pose, well, that doesn't do much for me. It either says a lot about the weak competition or, much, much, more likely that you and I disagree about the scale of his accomplishments that cause you to read events - using hindsight, no less - as you do. Similarly, I don't put too much stock in amorphous appeals to Third Way haters. Sure, complaints here and there, that's is part of the normal dynamics. As you yourself have observed, there is nothing that will satisfy them and I would add their rhetoric is at best a poor guide to assessing Clinton's actual beliefs or policies. I'll look to his actions, statements, and policies to measure him.

I realize you are not defending Clinton. Don't act put out as I was, and frankly, I don't read anyone reading you that way. You are sensitive to a charge that has not been leveled. Sometimes people disagree with your point of view without theirs being a simplistic cartoon. Characterizing as such seems to me unlikely to lay a firm foundation for sophisticated thinking.

"No, his mind is not for rent to any god or government" - Neil Peart


[ Parent ]
You & I Are Talking At Total Cross-Purposes (0.00 / 0)
I'm trying to explain why Clinton was regarded as a traitor to the true Third Way faith during his first two years, plus why he put up such a ferocious and effective fight against Newt Gingrich--all things that Obama would not have done.

You're trying to pretend that Clinton was always the same person from pre-1992 to the present.


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
and yet (0.00 / 0)
and yet you present no evidence to support your assertion he was so viewed or respond to my argument that to the degree it was true (and it was true to a degree) it tells us nothing of relevance about your claim that "Clinton was a genuine populist" which started this thread.

And now you switch gears to embrace what is in effect hindsight (how fiercely he fought Newt) having previously argued the discussion was about positions he adopted during the campaign and waved aside my points about NAFTA, etc. Not very consistent. He used Newt as a foil for fierce rhetoric but advocated, promoted, and adopted very anti-progressive policies, especially after 1994, according to you in an earlier comment. A sentiment I accept: He was bad and got worse.

I will cop to your characterization of my view that, in the main, Clinton was essentially a neo-liberal ConservaDem over the pre-election, primary, and presidency period. That is why I disliked him. But the animating point behind my series of comment was your claim he was a "genuine populist" which is something that I do not believe is supported by the evidence, for any point in time you may choose to select and I said so in the beginning. I even conceded what I think is the strongest point in his favor that he has in this regard, i.e. raising taxes on the wealthy, but subsumed what I think is his best "case" as a populist and attempted to give reasons why that did not make him a populist.

"No, his mind is not for rent to any god or government" - Neil Peart


[ Parent ]
I share your frustration with the liberals' need for precision (4.00 / 1)
but I think that's a need that's mostly self-imposed, not demanded from the outside.  Yes, President Obama's defenders ask us to keep his accomplishments in perspective, but I suppose they apply the same standards to themselves (while dismissing his failures, which are mostly in foreign policy, civil liberties, health care, discretionary spending, and Social Security, which they all either agree with or don't care about).

How many times have you seen liberals tripping over themselves to uphold truth and precision in debate, to the point of forgetting to make their own argument?  "Oh, John Kerry's health care plan isn't a 'big government plan'" - without explaining why "big government" isn't necessarily a bad thing.   "Oh, Barack Obama isn't a Muslim" - without explaining why it shouldn't even matter if he were.

This is probably because liberals are so used to being on the defensive that they've - we've - forgotten how to actually take our own stands and hold our own principles, instead of just endlessly deflecting attacks and accusations and positioning ourselves as "I'm not..." instead of "I am..."


[ Parent ]
A few points (4.00 / 7)
Of course he blasts the right sometimes, just as Clinton did. (Obama doesn't do it nearly as well.) He has a D next to his name, after all. He wants to win. And he actually thinks the GOP is wrong in some cases.

But he caves to the right too often.
And accepts their premises and frames too often.

More to the point, maybe, you and Mark use the wrong terms. The important question is whether he takes on the left or the right of his own party. Conservadems are supposedly blocking his agenda-- that's what we keep hearing--but he's made no effort to isolate and/or humiliate the Ben Neslons and Evan Bayhs of the world. He wasn't kidding when he called himself a "new democrat."


Thinking about it more (0.00 / 0)
It occurs to me that the difference in what we were saying, using Obama's rhetoric as evidence, can easily be summarized as:

Paul: Obama isn't a liberal, he is a neo-liberal.
Mark: Obama isn't a conservative, he is a neo-liberal.

Both boundaries are important to define.  For the world at large, your point is more important.  For the Open Left community, I'm beginning to think my point is more important.


The thing is, you're both right. (4.00 / 1)
He's neither liberal or conservative. He's a Neo-Liberal.

His ideology is as anti-conservative as it is anti-liberal. Ditto for Neo-Conservatism. There's another, older ideology that also has that characteristic.

"Nobody is actually starving. The hobos, for example, are better fed than they have ever been. Hobos are eating well, in fact one had ten meals in a single day." -- Pres. Herbert Hoover, 1932


[ Parent ]
However (4.00 / 1)
Obama does have considerable deference to conservatives that leads to him essentially ratifying and normalizing a lot of conservative policies--particularly in the realm of foreign policy, military affairs and civil rights.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Here's (Perhaps) a Simpler Frame (4.00 / 6)
The way I explain Obama to people is that he is a Democrat who pushes policies and solutions that Republicans have traditionally supported and that benefit traditional Republican constituencies. Health care, for example, was a policy Mitt Romney more or less pushed in MA. It benefits private insurance companies, big pharmaceutical companies, and big hospital chains at the expense of most Americans. (A progressive Democratic health plan, for example, with a public option or Medicare for All (perhaps the same thing), would have benefited all Americans first and marginally benefited health insurance companies who typically process claims.)

There's no need, in my universe, at least, to bother to describe neo-liberal or conservative. People get what "Republican" means, whether they approve or disapprove of Republican policies. And they get the idea of a Democrat whose policies benefit Republican constituencies.

For me, at least, that is the simplest way possible to describe the disconnect with Obama and progressive Democrats. If we benefit at all from Obama's policies, it appears to be accidental. Indeed, I get a feeling Obama has used progressive Democratic rhetoric to get Republican policies passed, witness what went on with health insurance reform and the public option.


[ Parent ]
That's Good Enough For Your Purposes (0.00 / 0)
But since we're a reality-based bunch, we really do need to develop a more rigorous understanding for ourselves, which will also, hopefully, lead to even better plainspoken explanations somewhere down the line.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Co-existence (0.00 / 0)
I agree. Part of what's been great with Open Left over the past few years is that the diaries have been a kind of stumbling towards an understanding of the problem(s) we face and how best to deal with them. A big part of that is definition. And for that you do need to get down in the mud. But once we define the problems, there are any number of ways to express those ideas depending on the audience. I don't mean to preclude other more refined expressions.

[ Parent ]
Obama's anti-base politics (0.00 / 0)
You say of Krugman "(he still doesn't seem to have read Minsky, for example, or at least not in any depth)."

Perhaps you should read his recent NY Review article, then try to remember that he's writing in the NY Times. Your arguments would mean more if you didn't pick stupid fights.


Stupid Fights (0.00 / 0)
I wasn't trying to pick a fight, just making a passing comment to situate myself and my critical perspective relative to Krugman.

But, then, you seem to be an expert on stupid fights, so maybe I should just let that pass.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Interesting thought (0.00 / 0)
The chief reason that conservative elites empower their base is that the base believes in the worship of authority, so that works out well for the conservative power elites.  This isn't at all the case on the left.

I never thought about this in this way. Interesting insight. Thanks.

miasmo.com






USER MENU


blog advertising is good for you
blog advertising is good for you

Donate to Open Left

QUICK HITS
SEARCH

   

Advanced Search

STATE BLOGS