Pandermonium

by: Paul Rosenberg

Wed Sep 22, 2010 at 13:30


Kevin Drum responded to Paul Krugman's "Anti-Dog Whistler" post very differently than I did, and digby responded:

Ideology Pander

by digby

Kevin's made the point before, and repeats it today, that Democrats have to run to the center more than Republicans because more people identify as conservative than liberal and therefore, they have to appeal to fewer "moderates" or people in the center than the Democrats do. Or put another way, since there are so many more people in their base, they have to pander to it to win while the Democrats have to pander to the center in order to get a majority.

The problem with this analysis is that he thinks all this has something to do with how people self-identify, as if the people who identify as "conservative" are all really conservative or the moderates and liberals are truly moderate and liberal. I don't know that that's the case. Sure it's true in some cases, but I don't think people necessarily identify with these ideological labels out of ideology. It's more of a tribal ID or a social designation.

And I think it's fairly clear that a huge propaganda campaign to demonize the word liberal that has lasted nearly 30 years has taken its toll on the willingness of people to wear it. Even I, old time lib that I am, have found myself in large social and business situations in which self-identifying as a liberal is uncomfortable....

Boy howdy! As they say in the trade.  The GOP just voted to block discussion of the Defense Authorization Act. If Dems had done this, the only thing you'd hear for the next week would have been, "Why do the Democrats hate the troops?"  And yet, not only do the Democrats not even dream of making such a politically potent attack on Republican obstructionists, the Republican senators are acting in defense of a position that even a majority of Republicans oppose.  How, exactly does Kevin Drum's reasoning explain that?  Simple: It doesn't.

But digby's reasoning does....

Paul Rosenberg :: Pandermonium
This vote was all about identity politics and the culture war, which conservatives understand is what all votes are about. Because this was such an unpopular position to take, this vote is extremely instructive.  Republican senators (even so-called "moderates" like Collins and Snowe) had to vote against repealing DADT, because it was a core culture war matter. Accepting DADT would be accepting "the homosexual agenda", and that would mean capitulating on a defining conservative narrative of the past 30 years.  Eventually, of course, they will have to capitulate, and after they do, some future Glenn Beck will then explain why conservatives were the real gay rights activists all along.  But we're not there yet. We're still at the point where hard core activist fever demands that DADT be defended at all costs.

Of course this won't even fly with most Republicans or even a good chunk of self-described conservatives.  Which is the main reason why Republican senators offered all sorts of bogus explanations for their votes--explanations that Rachel Maddow ripped to shreds on her show last night.  Of course the explanations are ludicrous.  But if you're a good little tribalist, you won't even hear, much less pay attention to, anyone who will even think of questioning them, much less ripping them to shreds.  This is the beauty of multi-decade hegemonic warfare, it creates a situation in which you have multiple layers of defense that function automatically.  For the hard core, you have the extremist position and the narrative of total demonization of groups and individuals.  For the substantively not-quite-so-lockstep, you have the amped-up epistemic closure, which now encompasses more people more persistently than any time previously in American history, and you have that epistemic closure backed up by the narrative of the terribly biased liberal media.  And for those in the middle, you have the "both sides do it" balance meme.

I've made this argument for years now:  the number of people supporting the hard-core conservative position on issues is miniscule, which is why complex, multi-level deception is central to the conservative movement.  This is from early 2006 ("The Rightwing Group Slander Of Liberals Refuted-Part 5F"):

A Fringe Minority

As I repeated just above, the position that abortion is murder (not homicide-which can justifiable, in the case of rape, incest, or threat to the mother's life, for example-but murder) is a fringe minority position, much like opposition to welfare state spending. In fact, it's even more of a fringe position. A mere 8.1% of the population opposes abortion in all three cases in the AbThreat scale [abortion in the case of rape, incest or threat to health of the mother] during the most recent timeframe.

It's even more revealing if we put these two conditions together: opposition to welfare state spending and to all abortions on the AbThreat scale. The NatSpend6Sp scale measures attitudes toward six welfare state spending questions. Running cross-tabs between NatSpend6Sp and AbThreat yields the following:

The bold numbers are percentages. In the lower right-hand corner, the intersection of two fringe positions-one 16.6%, the other 6.4% (a bit lower than the 7.3% in the total survey population)-comes out to just 1.2%. This is the percentage of people who hold two key movement conservative positions: that abortion is murder, and that the welfare state should be cut. In contrast, the two boxes in the upper left-hand corner total to 55.9%. That's the intersection of those wanting to increase welfare state spending and supporting abortion in all three cases in the AbThreat scale. That's the liberal position that's "out of touch with the American people," according to folks in the 1.2% lower right-hand corner.

It's amazing how much power these people have, given how marginal their attitudes are. They have been the driving force behind 30+ years of culture war, that has produced remarkably little over-all change in levels of support and opposition to abortion rights. And yet they remain a tiny fringe.

That's the tiny fringe that Republicans have to cater to, according to Kevin Drum.

It's all done with mirrors.  Blue smoke and mirrors. And folks like Drum--on the left--are actually part of the deception, without even realizing it.

Now that's hegemony.  And that's what we're up against.  Not a puny 1.9% of the population.

As Pogo famously said, "We have met the enemy and they are us."


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Pandermonium | 40 comments
Mending fences? (0.00 / 0)
Eventually, of course, they will have to capitulate, and after they do, some future Glenn Beck will then explain why conservatives were the real gay rights activists all along.

Has the process for this already begun?

Sam Stein
HuffPost
'Detente': GOP Leadership To Make Historic Appearance Before Gay Rights Group
09-22-10 10:49 AM

Breaking new ground in the Republican Party's relationship with the gay community, the leaders of the GOP's two congressional campaign committees will be honored at a fundraising reception hosted by the Log Cabin Republicans on Wednesday evening....



Not Really (4.00 / 3)
The Log Cabin Club exists for little else than to give gay-bashers cover.  The suit they filed to overturn DADT was the exception, not the rule.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
You are correct ... (0.00 / 0)
... but that doesn't mean it doesn't work.

[ Parent ]
I dunno, Paul (0.00 / 0)
Who would be the first group of conservative supporters the GOP might might to "make nice" with having defeated a core conservative Support the troops! position, and having dissed those who might not only be offended by failing that core position, but also feel personally affronted?

I keep thinking, Why now?  

Casey Pick, the programs officer at the Log Cabin Republicans confirmed that it is the "first time" that a single head of a Republican campaign committee has attended the dinner.

The ceremony, he added, symbolized a "détente" or "thawing" of the Republican Party's relationship with the gay community.

It's not like it's not going to cost them...

... And in anticipation of Cornyn's appearance at the Log Cabin Republican event, the Family Research Council's Tony Perkins wrote a scolding letter to the senator.

[]

"In deference to the work you have done against the debasement of our culture, I would ask respectfully that you withdraw from attending the event."

Perkins carries weight in Republican circles. And in election cycles past, a letter like his may have persuaded Cornyn's to drop his appearance. But the senator wrote back a few days later relaying that he was going ahead with the Log Cabin event.

Maybe you're right, and it's all window dressing, but this is a group of people who thrive on symbols.


[ Parent ]
Yes (4.00 / 6)
the number of people supporting the hard-core conservative position on issues is miniscule

And big majorities support liberal positions on bread and butters issues -- government run health care, progressive taxation, fair trade, outsourcing, breaking up the big banks, etc.

Which means that many self-described moderates and conservatives support liberal positions.

I've always been a non-fan of Kevin Drum, but this was bad even for him. It was nothing less than pernicious.  


I Was Certainly Shocked When Mother Jones Picked Him Up (4.00 / 4)
Not that I should be, really.

But I was.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Yup. The Atlantic, that would have made sense. (4.00 / 2)
But good ole Mother Jones? Not a great combination. However, that publication has changed. Imho they lost their bite when they removed their famous slogan from the title: "A legacy of raising hell, a commitment to JOURNALISM."

Really can't understand how a publisher can terminate such a grand battlecry. It's not only a break with tradition, it's simply bad marketing, imho. Somewhat as if the Gray Lady would replace their layout with that of the NY Post...


[ Parent ]
Mother Jones's loss was The Washington Monthly's gain ;) (4.00 / 1)


[ Parent ]
So to say. (0.00 / 0)
Benen's really doing a good job there. However, if I remember it correctly, it was Drum who brought him in first as a holiday fill-in. Ain't that so?

[ Parent ]
Bringing in Benen was the best thing Drum did (0.00 / 0)
Made the site worth reading.

[ Parent ]
Good title (0.00 / 0)
Something Paul Krugman might have thought up.

A good straight line is a terrible thing to waste (4.00 / 1)
As Pogo famously said, "We have met the enemy and they are us."

Then Dump Us!  :>)

But seriously, you make a good point.  We have both agreed and clashed over the years, but allow me to put forth the central assumption underlying my various positions and tactics.

Around a solid set of beliefs, we need a solid core which will not compromise on those beliefs, regardless of whether they are deemed realistic by our liberal gatekeepers.  What that core set of beliefs should be is an open question that I am not pursuing at this moment (I kind of like "eat the rich," but even I am not that crazy).  But that core set of beliefs has to exist.

Then some kind of organization has to be put in place around which it can recruit and mobilize.  Again, I'm up in the air about what that organization or organizations should be.

Those questions are to be debated after it is agreed on the core beliefs.

I reject the shallow realism that has infected the progressive movement.  I recall during the healthcare fight that it was bald-facedly argued that it was not legitimate to put forth any demands, however meek, that did not have the active support of at least one senator.  And that argument morphed quickly into it being illegitimate to put forth any demand (wild stuff, like a public option) that was not assured of passage.

But once that shallow excuse for realism is accepted, we're on the slippery slope to pathetic impotence, which I believe is where the progressive forces are now.

You know I do not disdain tactical nuance.  The core principles are in fact rather modest.  But we need to start drawing lines in the sand, and taking them seriously.

Let me try one.

Any Democrat who gives even a single inch on Social Security is to be opposed at every turn, and never to be forgiven.

Will they take that threat seriously?  Given the history with healthcare reform, I'm doubtful.  Then the "or else" has to be carried out.  At the next line in the sand, ("tax breaks for the rich?") maybe they'll listen.

Personally, I think the "or else" moment has long passed.  But hey, see what a reasonable fellow I am?


Bored Now, 22 Years Ago (0.00 / 0)
In 1988, I was involved in a massive mobilization of the left in LA.  It had two aspects.  For the direct action purists,there was a mass march, which by my best recollection drew 15,000 people.  For those willing to do electoral work, there was a precinct network structured around initiative positions--with the option of people also doing whatever added candidate work they wanted to do.  I helped coordinate literature for Jesse Jackson, which a lot of people carried.  About 1,000 people participated in that, and the effort was focused entirely on occassional progressive voters, so we were going after pure progressive gravy.

If just half the purists had been willing to soil their hands helping to defeat the tobacco companies and others of like ilk, we could have turned out seven times as many progressive voters than we did.

That's why I really have no time for the likes of you, Jeff.  You are probably the most effective force in demobilizing the left so far as building electoral power goes.

That and the fact that you are totally incapable of ever not trying to hijack a thread.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Well, this seems a bit much (4.00 / 1)
You are probably the most effective force in demobilizing the left so far as building electoral power goes.



[ Parent ]
Not Jeff Alone, Of Course (0.00 / 0)
"You" (pl).

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
I was suggesting ... (0.00 / 0)
... that we needed a "fringe minority" on the left with tactical sense, since the fringe minority on the right has been rather successful.

I was not hijacking the thread, I was trying to build on the post.

I've long bemoaned my lack of effectiveness.  ("So why ain't you rich," as they used to say.)  This seems rather personal.  But for the moment, I'll shut up.


[ Parent ]
But I've REPEATEDLY Pointed Out That You HAVE No Tactical--Or, More Importantly--STRATEGIC Sense (0.00 / 0)
So that's where things sorta fall apart.  Know what I mean?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Evidence of this being ... (0.00 / 0)
... that I don't want to do what you want to do?  That I do want to do things that you disagree with?

We have no context to get into this in depth, and I don't want to get into a heated slogan exchange.


[ Parent ]
That You Don't Have Any "Step 2" To Your Underpants Gnome Plan. (0.00 / 0)


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
I've answered this REPEATEDLY! (4.00 / 1)
You just don't like my answer.

[ Parent ]
Not So. (0.00 / 0)
Just to make very sure, I just went through the entire "Underpants Gnome" thread.  I couldn't find one single comment of yours that addressed my criticism.  Not one.

In fact, it's almost as if you're congenitally incapable of even grasping what I'm talking about, since you do everything but address my criticism--including, of course, providing further evidence that you don't have a "Step 2".

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I'll reply at the bottom of this page (0.00 / 0)
Getting too skinny.

[ Parent ]
In response to your accusation of hijacking ... (4.00 / 1)
I was going to lay off this discussion.  The columns are getting too thin, anyway.

[ Parent ]
Well, Paul, YOU didn't even come up with a plan. (4.00 / 1)
Or did you, and I overlooked it? Sry, but four more years of Obama isn't exactly an idea that is likely to advance progressive policies. Imho to discourage even thinking about replacing Obama is to accept the ugly reality of a center right president who is moving the nation in the wrong direction. Come on, don't you have to acknoledge that there is a certain degree of appeasement in that?

We shouldn't discuss this here, this is a big issue that deserves a story of its own. But pls stop picking on Jeff, especially with ridicule like the inapropriate "underpants gnomes" metaphor. His timing may be bad and his plan half-baked, ok, but that doesn't say it's total nonsense.  


[ Parent ]
Gov't spending is great - as long as it is for "us" (4.00 / 2)
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09...

Republicans say they will also try to scale back the expansion of Medicaid if states continue to object to the costs of adding millions of people to the rolls of the program for low-income people.

In addition, Republican lawmakers may try to undo some cuts in Medicare, the program for older Americans. Many want to restore money to Medicare's managed-care program and clip the wings of a new agency empowered to recommend cuts in Medicare. Recommendations from the agency, the Independent Payment Advisory Board, could go into effect automatically unless blocked by subsequent legislative action.

Once again, "libertarianism" is brought down by individual interest.


As proof of your "tribalism" thesis (4.00 / 1)
I haven't seen this paradox noted much:

Last August, the other tribe was all up in arms because they thought the government was going to "get its hands on 'their' Medicare".

This August, that same tribe has no trouble lining up with people who are quite willing to abolish Medicare.

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.


Quite True (4.00 / 3)
The only thing that ultimately matters is the tribe.  They don't even actually have any ideology.  Conservatives in most of the world are pro-statist, not anti-statist.  That's because they've controlled the state apparatus for hundreds, if not thousands of years.  THey're simply in favor of whatever brings them power, secures power that they already have somewhat of a hold on, or further extends power their existing power in new ways.  The "ideology" will be adjusted or situationally activated as needed to justify the power grab.

Here's a rough sketch:

Tribal identity --> extend power -->justify with narrative --> solidify as "ideology".


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Change is scary (4.00 / 1)
You could lose something you already have!

[ Parent ]
The worse the times, the less to lose. (0.00 / 0)
Nowadays, for many people change can only bring gains. What do they have to lose? No job? No house? No support?

[ Parent ]
It's like your only tool is a hammer. (4.00 / 1)
Kevin is a centrist. And so, of course, for him, the solution for every political problem is - run to the center!

Promoting misinformation (4.00 / 3)
Note that for Drum to be correct (in one sense, at least), it doesn't require there to be a correlation between self identification and actual beliefs.  The only requirement is for politicians to believe such a correlation exists.

Drum is correct in the sense that this belief is partly why Democrats act this way.  They honestly believe the country is more conservative than it actually is.

More need to be diligent like you and Digby for pointing out how this assumption is not correct.  What is "baked into the cake of modern American politics" (as Drum puts it) isn't the ideological distribution, but the Village's lack of understanding of it.


I have a different take (0.00 / 0)
It seems to me that it isn't that a lot of Democrats believe this but that they use this as an excuse to do policy that benefits Wall Street, which then turns around and finances their re-elections.

This is the only explanation that makes sense when you realize that the public option had super majority support among the electorate.

Educate, Agitate, Organize, Mobilize, Act!


[ Parent ]
TARP bailouts (4.00 / 1)
The proof of that, for both sides of the aisle, is the difference between constituency demand and votes on the TARP bailout.  Both sides of the aisle were besieged with letters and phone calls running hugely, ginormously, against the TARP bailouts.  What voters want or believe is, quite simply, irrelevant -- whether it's about DADT or TARP or health care or taxes.  When the overwhelming mass of the country is communicating to congress at a ratio of 1200:1 against a vote, and the congress goes ahead anyway -- who can argue that the people's voice matters?

[ Parent ]
Crazy Friends (4.00 / 2)
Have you ever had one of those crazy friends tell you a story about something he or she did?  It's always hard to tell if they are making the story up or not.  It seems the people who would make up stories about doing something crazy are exactly the same people who would actually do it.

What % of this is our politicians using excuses to lie and what % is them actually believing this crap?  I'm going with 75% and 75%.  Yes, that adds up to 150%; that's because 50% is overlapping.  I'm a strong believer in feedback loops.


[ Parent ]
There are plenty of rank and file (4.00 / 1)
Dems, including plenty of people hanging out in the comments of Dem-leaning blogs, who fervently believe the same thing. Those people are not funded by Wall Street.

That isn't to say what you're describing is never the case - I think they tend to be self-reinforcing.

Politics is the art of the possible, but that means you have to think about changing what is possible, not that you have to accept it in perpetuity.


[ Parent ]
True, This Is One Part Of It (4.00 / 2)
And LibWingofLibWing has another part of it.  And who politicians associate with is another part of it.  And how their political environment is shaped (as in my recent posts on the Sunday talk shows) is another part of it.

That's the way that hegemony works. As Gramsci explained it, there are multiple different cultural institutions, each of them fulfilling their own roles, but in doing so they also fulfill their part in the larger role, the way that different units in an army all fulfill both their own specific role and the larger purpose of the entire army.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Yep (0.00 / 0)
I was about to reply to LibWingofLibWing that both our takes are largely correct.  You explain it better.

[ Parent ]
Groan, now I have to go back and read it! (0.00 / 0)
At various points in the piece, I support your point (2) Build para-party infrastructure for hegemonic warfare, the same way that the right has done for 40 years. The difference, as I've expressed often, is trying to draw lines in the sand and punish those who cross them to the extent possible.  In that regard, my (2) is a bit more specific than yours.

I also write:

The question, as I see it, is how can the left get some ground under its feet so that it can fight for what it wants.  Paul has one notion, I have another, for accomplishing the same thing.  Both are gambles.  The answer to Dump Obama isn't to denounce Dump Obama.  The answer is to build that left infrastructure that Paul CALLS for.

But the question then is how to do so is how to, in a sense, find some tiny patch of solid ground amidst the quicksand we stand in that has led us to our current mess.  I think an extreme wrenching is required.  How's that for deep analysis?

But I completely reject your 1,2,3 schema.  I do not posit 3 as some great end point.  Rather, a strong Dump Obama movement would be a significant beginning, but no more than a beginning.  I am not any kind of purist, unless you consider anything to the left of you as purism.

You keep repeating that this isn't an answer.  But it is.  We have a difference of method.  At this point I am calling for a movement, an amorphous concept to be sure, but so be it.  You are constrained -- I believe, and this is surely no insult -- by being an academic.  You once admitted something to this effect.  I am an agitator of sorts.  Set a long range goal, then make some moves, see what gets stirred up, figure out where to go from that.  Always keeping in mind the long-range goal.  I feel like you are asking for a roadmap.  I just don't believe that the material conditions exist for creating a roadmap.

Reckless?  We are living in dangerous times, and if we can't take some risks, we commit ourselves to drowning in the quicksand.

I keep saying that I support your call for building infrastructure.  But I believe that the specific gravity of the Democratic Party machine will either defeat or corrupt such infrastructure building in the absence of some wind in its sails, i.e., a movement.

Perhaps you have a problem with the very concept of "building a movement."  So do I.  But it seems to be a necessity.  When I started this, I had no idea whether it would catch on.  But based on a limited sampling, it is catching on beyond my initial expectations.


So, You Admit It (0.00 / 0)
But I completely reject your 1,2,3 schema.  I do not posit 3 as some great end point.  Rather, a strong Dump Obama movement would be a significant beginning, but no more than a beginning.  I am not any kind of purist, unless you consider anything to the left of you as purism.

You don't have any idea where you're going or how you'll get there.  (Which, of course makes you all the more oblivious to the problems inherent in your approach. It renders your "plan" little more than a wish-fulfillment fantasy.)

That was my point.

BTW, this same criticism applied to Obama supporters in their frenzy of enthusiasm.  And not just the young and naive.  Remember the whole "Theory of Change Primary" narrative?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I have some idea (0.00 / 0)
I don't have a roadmap.  Anyone who thinks they have a roadmap is delusional.

There are all sorts of ways a Dump Obama move could play, depending on size of movement, the politicians who enter the fray, and world events, among many other things.  The point of my method is to build a coherent force which could respond to whatever events develop, rather than depending on a particular outcome.

And just for the record, what are the problems inherent to my approach that I'm oblivious to?


[ Parent ]
Pandermonium | 40 comments




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